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Thread: Researchers to Search for Spanish Treasure Ship Nuestra Señora del Juncal

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  1. #16
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    971
    316 times
    Yeah, that is all good - if you were not that investor, being duped by phony operatives, that really blew it up with Spain.

    Also, last time I looked, Spain did not ask Omex to go and retrieve their property.


    Quote Originally Posted by VOC View Post
    At least the OMEX investors used their own money and OMEX used their own people, skill, drive and effort to recover the coins not just paying a lawyer to obtain them.

  2. #17
    VOC
    VOC is offline
    gb
    Apr 2006
    Atlantic Ocean
    479
    178 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    You should not own property that you have made no effort to stake a claim on, locate or attempt to retrieve for hundreds of years.

    The sea is not a storage repository for things you may or may not want in the future.

    As for OMEX investors they were told exactly what they were investing in (speculative wreck recovery) and that’s exactly what OMEX did.

    It’s only the greedy Spanish government with the help of some sneaky dealings with the USA that forced the coins to be snatched from the moral owner.

    Still Spain will be paying for their foolishness for ever, whilst OMEX walked away with their heads held high attracting even more investors.

  3. #18
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    971
    316 times
    Curious. That is exactly the same position of the US Navy (also, note my bold underline):


    "The US Navy’s ship and aircraft wrecks represent a fragile collection of non-renewable resources that, in addition to their historical value, are often considered war graves, may contain unexploded ordnance, state secrets, or environmental hazards. The Navy's policy towards these wreck sites is to leave them undisturbed, thereby encouraging in situ preservation.

    • U.S. Navy sunken and terrestrial military craft, as well as foreign sunken military craft in U.S. waters, remain government property regardless of their location or the passage of time, and are afforded further protection from unauthorized disturbance under the Sunken Military Craft Act (SMCA)."



      https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...functions.html




    Quote Originally Posted by VOC View Post
    You should not own property that you have made no effort to stake a claim on, locate or attempt to retrieve for hundreds of years.

    The sea is not a storage repository for things you may or may not want in the future.

    It’s only the greedy Spanish government with the help of some sneaky dealings with the USA that forced the coins to be snatched from the moral owner.
    Last edited by Alexandre; Feb 17, 2020 at 05:18 PM.

  4. #19
    VOC
    VOC is offline
    gb
    Apr 2006
    Atlantic Ocean
    479
    178 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I don’t agree with that either.

    War Graves should be time limited to 100 or 120 years.

    And as for the Mercedes being on military service that’s about as flakey as a sunburnt forehead.
    Darren in NC and Simon1 like this.

  5. #20
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    971
    316 times
    You are entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately for the matter in discussion, your opinion is not the rule of law.

    The Mercedes was a warship. If it was carrying cargo, doing training, showing the flag or fishing for anchovies, it does not matter. It was a Spanish Navy ship.


    Quote Originally Posted by VOC View Post
    I don’t agree with that either.

    War Graves should be time limited to 100 or 120 years.

    And as for the Mercedes being on military service that’s about as flakey as a sunburnt forehead.

  6. #21
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
    Teknetics T2SE, GARRETT GTI 2500, Garrett Infinium
    3,484
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    from: https://www.buscadores-tesoros.com/t...galeon-hundido

    It is striking that, for a matter of days, the departure of the expedition almost coincides with the presentation of the book The Three Creeds of Don Andrés de Aristizábal, by Fernando Serrano Mangas (edited by the Universidad Veracruzana), which took place at the beginning of May of this year. This, according to Santiago Mata, generated animosity at the National Institute of Anthropology and History. Presumably, the suspicion of the presentation of the book should have been caused because in this Serrano Mangas details the possible location of the Juncal (map 2), among many other valuable data that reconstruct the history of the fleet. It should be noted that the SAS published in 2003 The New Spain Fleet of 1630-1631, book coordinated by Flor de María Trejo and edited by INAH, in which various authors rescue information from the fleet and in particular about the Juncal, but in which an area of ​​location of the wreck is not exposed as the one determined by Serrano Sleeves In this regard, until the end of 2009, SAS did not have a defined wreck location area and, however, expedition after expedition, varied search areas without a methodology that justified it, squandering economic resources of the treasury.

    Dr. Serrano Mangas collaborated with the Underwater Archeology Branch some time ago on issues related to Juncal. It is possible that due to this and due to the imminent presentation of his book he tried to keep the dates of the expedition, the participants and the survey areas secret, if the SAS went out to sea to look for the wreck in the areas proposed by the Spanish researcher, who did not participate in the search. Now we need to know if they found the wreck and at what point. If so, it could be confirmed that it was in one of the locations proposed by Dr. Serrano. The Sub-Directorate of Underwater Archeology has the opportunity to make public its areas of prospecting by pointing out the methodology used to define them, and if they coincide with those of Dr. Serrano explain why.

    Regarding the exclusion of Dr. Serrano from the expedition, and with that from the Spanish Ministry of Culture, it should be emphasized that the Juncal is in Mexican waters, which automatically demarcates it from Spain regarding the sense of material ownership, which does not it implies the exclusion of the Spaniards from the search and, where appropriate, excavation of the wreck. Also, if it were to protect the submerged archeological heritage, and as a result of keeping the expedition and its results secret, then the participation of Americans and that they handle the strategic information would not be explained. This is an issue that should be of the highest interest of society and our rulers, and should even be considered a matter of national security for the historical and economic value it represents.

    Note: Dr. Serrano Mangas authorized this weekly to reproduce information contained in his book. The maps were provided by Dr. Loïc Ménanteau, a researcher at LETG Nantes Géolittomer and the University of Nantes, France.

    Map 1. Hypotheses about the defeats and situation of the wrecks of three ships of the New Spain Fleet of 1631, in the South of the Gulf of Mexico. Conception and realization: Loïc Ménanteau (LETG Nantes Géolittomer). Source: Secretariat of the Navy, 2006, and others.

    Map 2. Hypotheses based on the three types of league (English, Spanish and coastal) on the location of the shipwreck of Admiral Nuestra Señora del Juncal north of Cayo Arcas. Conception and realization: Loïc Ménanteau (LETG Nantes Géolittomer). Source: Secretariat of the Navy, 2006, and others. Bottom types: A, sand; To Cn, conchiferous sand; A Co, sand with coral; AG, sand with gravel; A gr, gray sand; Co Lo, coral with mud; The mud; The gr, mud with gravel; Lo Cn, mud with coral; The vr, green mud; RC Rocky.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's another link: https://www.facebook.com/notes/shipw...3849032630614/
    Last edited by Bum Luck; Feb 17, 2020 at 07:32 PM.
    Simon1, AARC and Alexandre like this.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." — Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  7. #22
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    971
    316 times
    Serrano Mangas was the most accomplished historian and archival researcher. Too bad he died before we put the Manila Galleon database on its feet.

  8. #23
    Charter Member
    us
    An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

    Oct 2004
    N. San Diego area (Pic of my two best 'finds'; son and grandson)
    Minelab Explorer
    19,979
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    Honorable Mentions (2)
    Bum Luck
    Re: Juncal current expedition: SSDD
    Don.....
    Bum Luck likes this.

  9. #24
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
    16,721
    3561 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)
    wasn't it a "hired" vessel --armed transport vessel ?

 

 
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