Who is the real pirate here?

[Jimi D Pirate]

Tom's Treasure... Perhaps
By : Pablo Edronkin
Submitted 2007-11-13 09:35:25

Some may remember this story while others have never heard of it, but I think most would agree who the real pirate is!

In 1968, a gentleman by the name of Tom Gurr located a sunken treasure off Florida's coast; a fortune was his, until Uncle Sam appeared. Tom Gurr was a treasure hunter who finally hit gold when he hunted down the wreckage of the San Jose de las Animas, a Spanish vessel that sunk off the Florida coast in 1733. At that time, laws allowed people like Mr. Gurr to search the waters and keep everything that was found at least three nautical miles offshore (about five km). The treasure of the San Jose met that condition precisely, at least at first.

Soon enough after he became rich, state agents appeared and claimed 50% of the whole treasure for Uncle Sam on the basis that the shipwreck was actually inside the three mile limit established by law. For that, they reinterpreted the legal document arguing that the distance was to be measured from the outer sandbanks and reefs, and not the coastline as it had been done before.

Five years of ensuing legal battles brought neither comfort nor justice form Mr. Gurr; his boat sunk mysteriously while still in the docks and he had no money to live with. Ironically he was rich, but he could not make any use of the treasure he found, so he wanted to get even and he did: he called a TV crew and live, from another ship, he threw the treasure back into the waters stating that if the whole thing was the state's, then the government should get it back.

The justice system that never listened to him in five years, nevertheless, accused promptly of destroying government's property, and Mr. Gurr himself had to salvage the treasure again.

In the end, the state got its share and that of Mr. Gurr was spent entirely in legal fees. He got nothing because he forgot the truth of any prize: getting it is half the work, because when others learn about your luck they will come like pirates to fetch it, especially the government. If you ever win at the casino, consider taking your money to an offshore bank!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[pcolaboy]

Amen brother.

 

[Darren in NC]

Great story, Jimi!

Ed Reimard and Mendel Peterson was with Tom Gurr during this era. I don't want to post copyrighted material, so you can read more about Florida's pirating during this time...if you want to just read about this incident, scroll down to about dead center of the page til you see San Jose listed.

http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac/edreimard.htm

You can order the CBS/Walter Cronkite video from Vanderbilt University thru your interloan library service about Tommy throwing the treasure back...here's the synopsis of the video...

(Studio) Tom Gurr arrested in Florida after allegedly throwing most of treasures recovered from sunken ship back to sea. Irreconcilable differences with state caused Gurr to throw away treasure. Most of valuables recovered from canal behind Gurr's house , however, not in sea.
REPORTER: Walter Cronkite

 

[Jimi D Pirate]

Darren, Thanks for the link .... And to think I only thought alligator's were in those canals!

 

[TCarlini]

Yeah so I deleted that post anyways it was a funny twist but anyways could you delete my quote please. But if anyone wants any info on it I can answer the best I can.

 

[treshuntintom]

Jimi D.Long time friend,hope all is well with you and family.Guess you retired from Universal by now.This is my second year of prospecting in Az.Live in Congress Az.Still keep in touch with Diverlynn And Galleon Hunter.Take care,Tom

 

[Swivel]

I remember the Summer of 1968 when the Smithsonian crew descended on our home in Plantation Key to catalog and document artifacts being recovered from the San Jose. Those were special times. My father, Tom Gurr was a very generous man that understood the value of sharing these finds with the public. It enraged state officials to learn these artifacts were being sent out of state to DC.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Keep your mouth shut! Always!

 

[Darren in NC]

I remember the Summer of 1968 when the Smithsonian crew descended on our home in Plantation Key to catalog and document artifacts being recovered from the San Jose. Those were special times. My father, Tom Gurr was a very generous man that understood the value of sharing these finds with the public. It enraged state officials to learn these artifacts were being sent out of state to DC.

Swivel, you father was the stuff of legend. Do you have anything else to add to the story of his struggle with the state, or anything that may not have been published? The "rest of the story?"

All the best to you,
Darren

 

[Swivel]

Swivel, you father was the stuff of legend. Do you have anything else to add to the story of his struggle with the state, or anything that may not have been published? The "rest of the story?"

All the best to you,
Darren

All I would add is that there was a tremendous smear campaign in news stories attacking his character including lies and distortions of what actually occurred. He caught the full wrath of the state government establishment in Tallahassee. In the end they threatened to go after my mom and that was a game changer, fight over.

He completely walked away from Treasure Hunting and resumed his career in civil engineering. He worked on the Space Shuttle Runway at KSC and in the mid 1970s took an engineering assignment in Panama, Central America. That was the beginning of a completely new and grand adventure in Central America. Sadly, we lost him in 2003, big ole heart just gave out.

Thanks for asking!

 

[huntsman53]

All I would add is that there was a tremendous smear campaign in news stories attacking his character including lies and distortions of what actually occurred. He caught the full wrath of the state government establishment in Tallahassee. In the end they threatened to go after my mom and that was a game changer, fight over.

He completely walked away from Treasure Hunting and resumed his career in civil engineering. He worked on the Space Shuttle Runway at KSC and in the mid 1970s took an engineering assignment it Panama, Central America. That was the beginning of a completely new and grand adventure in Central America. Sadly, we lost him in 2003, big ole heart just gave out.

Thanks for asking!

First off, welcome to the Treasure Net forums! Second, thanks for coming here and giving us some info on your' father who was apparently one hell of a man and treasure hunter! I am sorry that I never got to meet him but he had left the Florida Keys and even Florida long before I got my job in Key West with the National Weather Service in 1978 and later met Mel and Deo Fisher. I hope like Darren, that you will give us more insight into who Tom Gurr was and what he was about which was not in the news and is not the distorted take given by the news outlets.

On another note and tangent, it amazes me that all of the Treasure Salvor and Salvage Companies and their interests (Investors and companies that supply parts, fuel, Oxygen, Nitrogen and other supplies to these business) have not organized into a cooperative organization to pull resources to fight the State of Florida and the Federal Government all the way to the Supreme Court! I know that there is a lot of competition to find shipwrecks and the treasures or other cargo they carried but there seems to be enough for practically every one of them and if not, some with the permits could allow others to work on salvaging items from found shipwrecks under a fair contract like many are currently doing. If every Salvor or Salvage Company is making money, then they can stay afloat financially and physically (on the water) and help provide support to an organization to fight the good fight.


Frank Ferrell

 

[capt dom]

First off, welcome to the Treasure Net forums! Second, thanks for coming here and giving us some info on your' father who was apparently one hell of a man and treasure hunter! I am sorry that I never got to meet him but he had left the Florida Keys and even Florida long before I got my job in Key West with the National Weather Service in 1978 and later met Mel and Deo Fisher. I hope like Darren, that you will give us more insight into who Tom Gurr was and what he was about which was not in the news and is not the distorted take given by the news outlets.

On another note and tangent, it amazes me that all of the Treasure Salvor and Salvage Companies and their interests (Investors and companies that supply parts, fuel, Oxygen, Nitrogen and other supplies to these business) have not organized into a cooperative organization to pull resources to fight the State of Florida and the Federal Government all the way to the Supreme Court! I know that there is a lot of competition to find shipwrecks and the treasures or other cargo they carried but there seems to be enough for practically every one of them and if not, some with the permits could allow others to work on salvaging items from found shipwrecks under a fair contract like many are currently doing. If every Salvor or Salvage Company is making money, then they can stay afloat financially and physically (on the water) and help provide support to an organization to fight the good fight.



Frank Ferrell

To Frank's comment: Even the Federal Courts are selling out the salvers. For almost 3 decades the Federal Courts had awarded JWI with ownership of our shipwreck site. It did rule a color of title question, remanded back to State State Court based upon the 10th Amendment Rule but the state never chose to challenge the Federal Court ruling in its Court. Move ahead to 2018 our Attorney requests a status conference because DHR was up to its usual shenanigans, attempting to remove our rights to excavate the shipwreck with prop wash devices. A Federal Magistrate ruled after three decades of us owning the shipwreck, that the State now owns the shipwreck based upon an agreement we entered into in back in 1991 that was suppose to recognize the Federal Authority over the Shipwreck! Now, remember the State refused to enter the action. Luckily the Federal Court of Appeals moved to consider our appeal of the bogus report and recommendation by the Magistrate - signed, rather rubber stamped by Judge Moore and now... NOW THE STATE OF FLORIDA HAS FILED A NOTICE OF APPEARANCE BEFORE THE 3 JUDGE PANEL.... THUS ENTERING THE ACTION STATING IT NOW REPRESENTS THE SHIPWRECKS INTERESTS....

THE RATS MOST CERTAINLY ARE GUARDING THE CHEESE! Our attorney who has gotten all of the company's available cash, after being blocked from working for over 3 years, is demanding another $13,000.00 in legal fees and our JWI's back is again against the wall.... Maybe I should try a Crowd Funding Campaign....

 

[Salvor6]

After Capt. Dom and Frank's comment, I have to chime in. Frank, there have been numerous attempts to fight the state of Florida for salvage rights. Back in the 1990's there was the Conck Coalition, then Odyssey Marine started "Ocean Pro." Next Jim Sinclair started "Sea Rex." They got a meeting with Taffi Fisher and the governor but nothing changed. All efforts failed to change the salvage laws. John Redman (Aquanut) and I started the Treasure Hunters Cookout in 2006 to get the treasure hunting community together to fight the state but it turned out to be nothing more than a big party. The State is too powerful to fight against.

Capt. Dom and Scott Thompson got a permit to excavate the Jupiter Wreck just before the state passed the Shipwreck Act in 1987 but now after more than 30 years of responsible salvage the state has taken all rights away. You can't beat the state.

 

[huntsman53]

After Capt. Dom and Frank's comment, I have to chime in. Frank, there have been numerous attempts to fight the state of Florida for salvage rights. Back in the 1990's there was the Conck Coalition, then Odyssey Marine started "Ocean Pro." Next Jim Sinclair started "Sea Rex." They got a meeting with Taffi Fisher and the governor but nothing changed. All efforts failed to change the salvage laws. John Redman (Aquanut) and I started the Treasure Hunters Cookout in 2006 to get the treasure hunting community together to fight the state but it turned out to be nothing more than a big party. The State is too powerful to fight against.

Capt. Dom and Scott Thompson got a permit to excavate the Jupiter Wreck just before the state passed the Shipwreck Act in 1987 but now after more than 30 years of responsible salvage the state has taken all rights away. You can't beat the state.

I am sorry to say but my recommendations seem to be like beating a dead horse!

You can't fight the State by going to the Governor because it is in the Governor's best interest to back the State Agencies and their' employees. You have to go higher up as in State Representatives, Congress Men and Women, Senators and even Lobbyists. If you can sway some of them to propose changes to the Laws and Rules concerning shipwrecks and the salvaging of them, then you have a chance. However, it will take time and money and without the Salvors and other Salvage interests pulling together funds and cooperation, nothing will ever get done. You all might as well sit at home on your thumbs doing nothing because complaining isn't getting anyone anywhere! If anyone decides to really do something, then also prove to these same politicians just how corrupt the State of Florida and it's employees have long been when granting search and salvage permits, that many of the treasures given to the State per their' share...have actually gone missing and they will not give an account of where they are or where they went. There is a long list of infractions and illegal acts committed which should be brought to the attention of these politicians as well as the United States Attorney General.

Many of the folks here on Treasure Net might say, who is Frank (huntsman53) to stick his nose in where it does not belong. Well, I say that I lived and worked in Key West for one month shy of six years, that I knew Mel Fisher and his' wife Deo and know of the toll it took on him...his' family and his' Salvor business as well as some of the folks that worked for him off and on. I have known other folks that tried their hand in the Salvor business but failed for more than one reason but mainly due to the State. While things were bad enough in the late 1970s to mid 1980s, they are much worse now and it has become very hard and almost impossible in some areas for treasure hunters to even metal detect in search of their fortune.

 

[ivan salis]

well most of the treasure hunting folks got to know me when I showed up at the "proposed rules change" for salvaging at ponte vedra a fair bit back --the state was trying to push a "rule" thru that would have REQUIRED a archie from a STATE APPROVED GROUP ...to be your "project archie" and to sign off to get a permit ...the only problem with that was the GROUP in its by laws stated that anyone who worked for a "for profit salvor" would be instantly discharged from the GROUP ---so the second a archie signed up to work for you they were no longer able to be a "approved archie" = so no permits could ever be issued to a for profit salvor under those rules --a legal "catch 22" impossible to meet standard ...I Informed the state folks of this at the meeting --I SAID--- IF YOU ENACT THESE RULES --THESE FOLKS WILL SUE YOU AND THEY WILL WIN AND I THE TAXPAYOR WILL BE FORCED TO PAY FOR YOUR STUPIDITTY … I am officially warning you "ON THE RECORD" (minutes of the meeting were being kept) that this will occur and if you do nothing and allow this to occur as a tax payor I WILL PERSONALLY FILE CHARGES TO HAVE ALL OF YOU FIRED … needless to say when the FLA Secy of state who was there heard this - went over and whispered in their ears and --they uh "changed" that rule

for some odd reason --the state of florida archies and their backers do not seem to like me at all

my motto is --I am a iron fist in a velvet glove --I can be soft as velvet or hard as iron --which you get depends upon how you treat me

I'M FROM THE GOVT AND I'M HERE TO HELP -- if you hear those words ..clench yer butt cheeks together and grab yer wallet with BOTH hands …(frankly they should have to finish the statement by saying "MYSELF TO YOUR CASH AND PROPERTY")

 

[MiddenMonster]

Soon enough after he became rich, state agents appeared and claimed 50% of the whole treasure for Uncle Sam on the basis that the shipwreck was actually inside the three mile limit established by law. For that, they reinterpreted the legal document arguing that the distance was to be measured from the outer sandbanks and reefs, and not the coastline as it had been done before.

Sandbanks? Don't those change a lot over time? That sure is some shifting legal sand! Sift, shovel and shut up...

 

[Honest Samuel]

A big welcome. Sorry about your dad and your mother who also suffer. God bless both of them.

 

[Southern_Digger]

I recall Tom Gurr's plight with the state. At a Diving Expo in Miami during the 1990's, Bob Weller (or was it Bert Webber?--been years) told me he dove on San Jose after Gurr's dilemma--not knowing the Gurr's previous dives on that wreck. He dove and found the wreck littered with artifacts, not then realized they were dumped back in the sea. I still have the pillar dollar and raw emeralds I purchased from him at the expo.

 

[dts52]

"If you ever win at the casino, consider taking your money to an offshore bank!"
Here at the two big casinos in CT, the IRS will be waiting at the cashier's window for big winners. Players who have "member's cards" get some perks but their winnings/losses are also tracked by the casino and that information is available to the "government".

Curious though, am I supposed to declare all my recovered flip tabs and bottle caps as "income" on my tax return?
HH
dts

 

[Darren in NC]

Many have asked...

https://1715fleetsociety.com/treasures-state-florida-collection/

I believe I saw Ropefish post this on FB...