Brass spike and copper sheathing.

[Crow]

There is nothing incompatible with the copper alloy sheathing and the copper alloy spike. The British began retrofitting all their warships with bronze fasteners by 1786 precisely because of the introduction of copper sheathing. While the possibility of cross contamination can not be ruled out, more than likely you have relics from a British warship that sank sometime after Oct 1793 or 1795.

Can you tell if the small tacks used to fasten the sheathing to the hull are hand made or machine made?

Also, look very closely...there is a chance you might see a mark on a spike...

Gidday Jolly Mon

Good point the sheathing nail square cut or round machine cut nail? As for the sheathing it might pay to look closely and markings on the sheet where it was joined to others.

On your copper sheet you may be able to see where each sheet over lapped? The overlap on the vertical ends “faced aft” to help reduce water being forced into the joint and lifting the sheets. On merchant ships the horizontal joints faced down, while the British Royal Navy applied horizontal joints that faced upwards. So, when the sheeting is found attached to the hull, it not only allows a determination to be made as to the bow and stern but whether the vessel was part of the merchant service.

The arrangement of the tacks (nails) on the sheets varied considerably between shipyards and over time. some are 2-inches apart along each edge (i.e. the overlap) and 4-inches apart on the main part of the sheet and the rows are staggered, which was fairly typical.



Crow

 

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[Crow]

Here is a early machine cut nail



Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is some various manufactures mark in copper sheeting. All these was recovered from the same vessel HMS Victory launched in 7 May 1765; Over the life of the vessel several companies produced copper sheeting. Bibby and Sons was probably around 1807. But earlier sheeting came from Vivian and sons South Wales Swansea. And another company I cannot make the name out.







The point is manufacturer marks are not 100% reliable in determining the age of a vessel because depending on the life of the vessel re sheathing of the hull can be made several times over the life of the ship.

Crow

 

[Jolly Mon]

Here is a early machine cut nail

View attachment 1879516

Crow

Good stuff, Crow.

Actually, I am not trying to determine the age of the ship.

I am trying to determine when the ship sank.

If the copper alloy sheathing in the photos was attached to the wreck, the wreck had to have occurred sometime after Oct. 1793 or 1795.

If the tacks employed to fasten the sheathing to the hull are hand made rather than machine made, then the wreck probably occurred before 1815.

I hope I don't come across as being a "know it all" because I am not.

I have just been interested in this subject for a very long time.

 

[Crow]

Gidday jolly Mon I am by no means an expert my self as there is much for me still to learn. Especially earlier ships of pre Napoleonic era. As my interest is around 1800 to 1900.

So all good amigo.

But what's with those dates you mention? Is that the transition period from hand made nail to machine made nails?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday Jolly Mon

Good point the sheathing nail square cut or round machine cut nail? As for the sheathing it might pay to look closely and markings on the sheet where it was joined to others.

On your copper sheet you may be able to see where each sheet over lapped? The overlap on the vertical ends “faced aft” to help reduce water being forced into the joint and lifting the sheets. On merchant ships the horizontal joints faced down, while the British Royal Navy applied horizontal joints that faced upwards. So, when the sheeting is found attached to the hull, it not only allows a determination to be made as to the bow and stern but whether the vessel was part of the merchant service.

The arrangement of the tacks (nails) on the sheets varied considerably between shipyards and over time. some are 2-inches apart along each edge (i.e. the overlap) and 4-inches apart on the main part of the sheet and the rows are staggered, which was fairly typical.



Crow

I should add after Napoleonic wars and war of 1812 many surplus navy ships was sold off until totally worn out. So some navy vessels became merchant ships would have naval style coppering on thier hull.

Crow

 

[Small Adventures]

There is nothing incompatible with the copper alloy sheathing and the copper alloy spike. The British began retrofitting all their warships with bronze fasteners by 1786 precisely because of the introduction of copper sheathing. While the possibility of cross contamination can not be ruled out, more than likely you have relics from a British warship that sank sometime after Oct 1793 or 1795.

Can you tell if the small tacks used to fasten the sheathing to the hull are hand made or machine made?

Also, look very closely...there is a chance you might see a mark on a spike...

I think the tacks are hand made as they are not uniform.

 

[Small Adventures]

There is nothing incompatible with the copper alloy sheathing and the copper alloy spike. The British began retrofitting all their warships with bronze fasteners by 1786 precisely because of the introduction of copper sheathing. While the possibility of cross contamination can not be ruled out, more than likely you have relics from a British warship that sank sometime after Oct 1793 or 1795.

Can you tell if the small tacks used to fasten the sheathing to the hull are hand made or machine made?

Also, look very closely...there is a chance you might see a mark on a spike...

I did think I could see the broad arrow, but i don't think there is. I have a couple of iron spikes clearly marked with the broad arrow.

 

[Small Adventures]

Gidday Jolly Mon

Good point the sheathing nail square cut or round machine cut nail? As for the sheathing it might pay to look closely and markings on the sheet where it was joined to others.

On your copper sheet you may be able to see where each sheet over lapped? The overlap on the vertical ends “faced aft” to help reduce water being forced into the joint and lifting the sheets. On merchant ships the horizontal joints faced down, while the British Royal Navy applied horizontal joints that faced upwards. So, when the sheeting is found attached to the hull, it not only allows a determination to be made as to the bow and stern but whether the vessel was part of the merchant service.

The arrangement of the tacks (nails) on the sheets varied considerably between shipyards and over time. some are 2-inches apart along each edge (i.e. the overlap) and 4-inches apart on the main part of the sheet and the rows are staggered, which was fairly typical.



Crow

I shall have a closer look after work, I don't remember seeing a visible overlap.

 

[Small Adventures]

Pallas
I thought it may have been HMS Pallas.

 

[Small Adventures]

Gidday Paul

Here is a picture of the spike below

View attachment 1879505

Crow

The points do look to be similar in shape, I have also found a lot of lead sheet fragments like the ones in your picture, which again makes me think there are several wrecks there.

 

[Crow]

Pallas
I thought it may have been HMS Pallas.

That appears to be a strong contender most likely the vessel in question. The Severn was wrecked in channel islands in 1804. Just recently some of her sheathing was found. Here is some pictures below. She would of been a close contemporary HMS Pallas.







That said there was several HMS Severn the fate of which was uncertain.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Thanks Paul and Jolley both your posts have been very thought provoking. It has even helped me a little more in understanding my own research into a later shipwreck in another part of the world.

Cheers Crow

 

[Small Adventures]

I did find this quite interesting as there is also a Dutch wreck close to where I found the sheathing.

 

[Small Adventures]

Sheathing tacks

Here is a early machine cut nail

View attachment 1879516

Crow

The tacks from the sheathing and what i think is a side plate fragment from a pistol or musket.

 

[Small Adventures]

There is nothing incompatible with the copper alloy sheathing and the copper alloy spike. The British began retrofitting all their warships with bronze fasteners by 1786 precisely because of the introduction of copper sheathing. While the possibility of cross contamination can not be ruled out, more than likely you have relics from a British warship that sank sometime after Oct 1793 or 1795.

Can you tell if the small tacks used to fasten the sheathing to the hull are hand made or machine made?

Also, look very closely...there is a chance you might see a mark on a spike...

A different spike from another site but what i expected to see with the broad arrow.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Gidday jolly Mon I am by no means an expert my self as there is much for me still to learn. Especially earlier ships of pre Napoleonic era. As my interest is around 1800 to 1900.

So all good amigo.

But what's with those dates you mention? Is that the transition period from hand made nail to machine made nails?

Crow

Yes, exactly. Machine cut fasteners came on the scene around 1815.

 

[Jolly Mon]

The tacks from the sheathing and what i think is a side plate fragment from a pistol or musket.

Those look handmade to me.

This does not prove your wreck or wrecks occurred before 1815 of course, but it is suggestive.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/633375-royal-navy-wooden-shipwrecks-database.html

 

[Jolly Mon]

Actually, I am a moron.

The tacks ARE hand made. They HAVE to be. They were used to attach sheathing that was applied in 1793 or 1795. So they prove nothing. Sometimes we over think these things...

 

[Blak bart]

Gidday Paul

The thick mud must of had low oxygen levels in the mud thus preserved the copper sheathing from oxidation. Usually when exposed to harsh saltwater oxygenated environment over time the copper goes from green to black.

Good point you made of the possibility of cross contamination of different shipwrecks? But it could also could be possible a long serving ship had a mixture of components replaced over time. Thus straddling a transitioning period of various shipbuilding technologies.

View attachment 1879423

View attachment 1879428

I am interested in your spike . As it mirrors one I have not the one in the picture above.That vessel collectedly dated around 1830's to 1840's period.

Try to hunt down a the following book

McCarthy, M. 2005. Ships’ Fastenings: From Sewn Boat to Steamship. Texas A&M University Press. He has a very detailed description of the types and nature of fastenings, historical context, and much more.

Crow

The book your referring to is in my thread....these two threads could be combined
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/640187-different-types-spikes-anyone-know-ages.html