Napoleons wreck of LOrient

[Narked1]

Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Hi All,
Been a while since I've posted but I'm still reading the posts from time-to-time. I am asking for research assistance here. I am looking for Napoleon's flagship at Abou Kir Bay (Battle of the Nile). I was there a few years ago with a tour operator here and have since lost the GPS coordinates for the wrecksite due to my computer database dying on me. As I live in Egypt, and don't have a letter of sponsorship from a foreign university or government organization, my access to information here is extremely limited. I have to rely on internet research only for the time being. I know the general area that it lies in but it is a big area to search (about 6 sq. Nautical Miles). Was wondering if anyone on here may be able to lend a hand. Nothing of value to take off of the wreck, but just a good dive to do for archaelogical and historical purposes (Franck Goddio already took all the good stuff).

If anyone can, or is willing, to provide any information, it would be greatly appreciated. Might even pay for a plane trip for someone to come dive with me on the wreck just for fun!

Mike

 

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[BobPA]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?13728

Probably will not help, but it is what I found. Seems to me that it is within 1 KM of the coordinates. Still leaves a lot of ocean.
Bob

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

This is a duplicate of Bob's.

latitude: 31°24'0X'' N
longitude: 030°19'0X'' E

Aerial photo at base of this referenced page with "X" marks the spot.
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?13728

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Hi All,
Thanks for the effort and info. However, these coords are waaaay off the mark. These coordinates show the wreck lying on the eastern side of Abu Quir Bay. The Battle of the Nile was fought on the western side of the bay. The L'Orient sank south of Nelson's Island (south of Culloden's Reef). Will keep looking for it once the weather here breaks.

Oh, for anyone that is interested, these coordinates are very close to where the sunken city of Heraklion is located.

Thanks again,
Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Might this help?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Battle_of_the_Nile_PW4704.jpg

 

[Cablava]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Mike did'nt we look at this a couple of years ago, there must be something in the archive on TN. Cornelius had some data on it, and I remember posting a chart back then, sadly I lost it in a hard drive crash, it maybe on one of the many back up disc's I have.(I am not the most organised person on the computer). I will email Cornelius for you.

Regards

Mike Collins

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Mike,
The archives was where I first looked. Otherwise I would not have brought the subject up again. Nothing of any real import there. Have been poreing through my own archives (hard copies) and have been able to narrow my search area down to just over 1.5 square kilometers. I also have come across some new information that I did not possess before. Will get there eventually

Thanks for the link Mackaydon. Another historical drawing that I didn't have in my database.

Later,
Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Mike:
For what it's worth........bits and pieces (no pun intended)

1. The 15 ton rudder was hurled 1000 meters away from the ship.
2. Supreme Council for Egyptian Antiquities, being the repository for some of
the artifacts may know the location of the wreck.
3. Farouk Hosny, Minister of Culture (if he still is) will know it's location
4. US Naval Institute did a write up on this once: http://www.usni.org/
5. Position of the ships at the time of the battle:
http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/broadside1.html
Good hunting,
Don.......

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Don,
Thanks for the info and effort. The Minister of Culture does know the location of the site....but isn't giving it up since I am not affiliated with any university or research project. The Supreme Council of Antiquities is also restricted in providing the information to private individuals. The 15-ton rudder which was thrown 300 meters aft of the ship was recovered by Franck Goddio years ago and is currently in France (I believe) undergoing restoration.

With all of that being said, I have been able to glean some "bits and pieces" of information from the memoirs and diaries of a couple of witnesses to the battle (John Grimshaw and Rev. Cooper Willyams, plus others). So just for the sake of organizing my thoughts, I will share what I know here so far (Ain't research fun!):

The HMS Culloden ran aground on the eastern tip of the AbouKir Island Reef (now known as Culloden's Reef) approximately 2 miles north of the French Line and was unable to engage the enemy. (Grimshaw and Willyams)

13 of 17 ships were anchored in a line in a NW/SE direction (Capt. Miller's Charts), or in a W-E direction (Sir Briarly) at the 4 fathom mark. Charts from the early and late 20th century lean more toward the NW/SE direction as the 4 fathom mark (or 8 meters) is stone and coral with a natural NW/SE curve which is less likely to have changed much over the passed 210 years.

The French line was spread in line over a 2.5 mile distance with approximately 250-300 yards between each ship's bow and stern. The L'Orient was the seventh ship in the French line placing her approximately 3.25 miles southeast (+/-) of where the Culloden was aground during the battle. (Willyams)

Past diving experience on the site has the wreck located in 9-11 meters of water. This is consistent with navigation charts that I have access too as being just east of the 4 fathom mark listed in Rev. Cooper Willyam's account of the battle. Franck Goddio's and Jacques Dumas' online information concur with my dive records.

Vertical height of the wreck site is known to between 3 and 4 meters oriented in a N-S direction so should show up on a fish finder since (I don't have side-scan yet) and the bottom contour in this area is a relatively flat sandy bottom.

Review of old nautical charts online ALL have one item fairly in common, which is that the L'Orient was anchored east of Nelson's Island and approximately half-way between the island and the Aboukir Castle (on a N-S axis). (Willyams, Pocock, Berryton)

So, with all of that being said, I think I have narrowed my search area down to about 1-half of a nautical mile in a relatively straight line along the shoal area of the Aboukir Bay. Am planning a dive in the next week or so when the weather breaks here and will start a search from about 1/4-mile north to 1/4-mile south of the eastern side of the 8-meter mark and follow the natural curve of the shoal line shown on the 1927 chart of the area, with a diver going into the water every 100-meters to 5-meters a do a 5 minute search (4 divers currently onboard with the project). Thought about trailing divers behind the boat but don't want to risk missing anything since this is a recreational project and 2 of the divers are experienced recreational divers that want the fun and adventure of "discovering" something.

Not worried about sharing my research information here since this is not a treasure ship, and most of the people that visit this site aren't going to come to Egypt anytime soon just to check this wreck site out. However, if anyone does happen to come to Alexandria, Egypt for whatever reason, let me know in advance and I will take you diving for free! (I own a dive center here).

Hope you enjoyed reading this post and if you have any questions, comments or advice, please chime in!
Later,
Mike (going back to research since the weather is bad)

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Mike:
More bits and pieces:

1.The battle plan for the Battle of the Nile may have been adopted a few years later by the Russians at the Battle of Chesma (Turkey). There, the Russian battle line sailed towards the south end of the Turkish line and then turned north, coming alongside the Turks, with the tail end coming into action last (Elphinston had wanted to approach the northern end first, then follow the wind along the Turkish line, attacking their ships one by one - the method used by Nelson in 1798). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chesma)

2. This chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_of_Aboukir_Bay.png
shows the ship positions and movements during the Battle of Aboukir Bay, 1–2 August 1798, including where Culloden ran aground and the shoal line.

3. My concern is that with an explosive force of throwing the 15-ton rubber 1,000 meters (one report) and other descending burning debris able to create major fires on nearby ships, what structure can be expected to be found of the primary vessel?
All the best,
Don..

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Don,
To answer your question about what is still left of the ship.....Plenty! Remember, I have dove on this site before and am trying to relocate it. The center 25-30 yards of the ship are still intact. The main deck has collapsed onto the second and third decks which, after excavation by Franck Goddio's team, has left the central passageway and some of the athwartship's p-ways open and exposed. There is one iron cannon still left atop of the wreck as well. On the starboard side of the wreck there is copper sheathing and metal parts. The exposed after section has lead shot and shrapnel scattered about. Pretty interesting dive for anyone interested in naval arch. of the period.

Have found more information on the wreck location and will be out again this weekend.

Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Mike:

With that much of the ship still left at scuba depth, a side scan sonar would pick it up in a second. Any chance of renting one for a day, and quickly ending the frustration (time, effort and expense) of attempting to relocate it "the old-fashioned way"?
Don.....
Personally, I'd like to see (on TNet) online video of your rediscovery if that becomes possible.

 

[rgecy]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Didn't John and Ritchie do a special on the L'Orient on Deep Sea detectives?

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Don,
Not too many side-scan's to be found over here at the moment. That's why I've ordered a Humminbird 997. And what-the-hey, it's kind of fun doing it the "old fashioned way" during the diving off-season here.

And yes, John and Ritchie did do a story on Deep Sea detectives a few years ago. No real information to be gleaned from the show however.

Mike

 

[rgecy]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

So, from what I understand, the ships were anchored out near the small Crescent shape island in shallow water. I know its a big area, but you should be able to locate some of the wreckage with the side scan fairly easily.

Here are some of the images I have found on the net that shows how the ships were anchored and the path of the Nelson's fleet.

Robert

 

[Narked1]

Re: Napoleon's wreck of L'Orient

Robert and all,
Thanks for the pics. Have got them already, plus others. Here is one from the Frank Goddio Society that actually puts me right in the area (and a large one at that) if his online information is believed to be accurate. My research indicates that the wreck may lie on the southwest corner of the box labeled L'Orient. This is closer to the 4-fathom mark as stated in Rev. Cooper Willyam's book. Have been in the area a couple of times over the past couple of months and still have been unable to locate her. Found the Seriusse a few weeks ago and there isn't much left of her to see. However, since the Seriusse lies on the eastern edge of the sunken city of Menouthis there are some other interesting things to see in the area.

Nice thing about this pic is that it shows Nelson's Island (or the Arabic name: Gezirit Desuqi....Desuqi Island) and you can see the shoal areas. The Culloden ran aground on the shoal northeast of the island. This was approximately 2 nautical miles from the first ship in the French line (L'Gurrier). The L'Orient was 7th in line which places her approximately 1.25 miles south-southeast of the L'Guerrier.

The second pic is from Gardner showing the battle in progress and ship positions. Seems like simple math on paper to locate the wreck but as we all know, when you're in the water with limited viz things are a whole lot different. Will get there eventually and then will post some pics here or on my dive center forum. PM me for the forum addy since I don't think that this is the place to advertise for my dive center.

Mike