1715 Ballast Pile Question

[Salvor007]

From the Amelia Research & Recovery website at http://www.ameliaresearch.com/pages/main.htm

Amelia's 1715 Project


For Spain 1715 was the first year of peace following a prolonged and expensive war. Annual shipments of gold and silver from the new world had been drastically curtailed during the War of Spanish Succession. Bullion had accumulated in the New World treasure ports of Cartegena, Porto Bello and Vera Cruz. The 1715 shipment was vital to Spain’s exhausted economy. The annual Spanish Plate Fleet due in Cadiz, Spain, in September of 1715 never arrived. A hurricane in the Bahamian Channel caught the helpless ships carrying millions in silver, gold, jewels, contraband and precious cargo, including the “Queen’s Jewels”, commissioned by King Filipe V for his bride.



In the 1960’s the Real Eight Company salvaged the “easy pickings” from the 1715 fleet without the benefit of technological advancements now available to modern salvors, such as advanced magnetometry and side scan sonar. Following Wagner’s early work, the Mel Fisher companies acquired the rights to the 1715 fleet wrecks on the central, eastern coast of Florida.



In the late 1980’s Amelia’s corporate predecessor was founded to search for two undiscovered 1715 fleet ships, the San Miguel and the Ciervo, after 1715 Spanish coins and artifacts were discovered on the beaches of Amelia Island, Florida. The potential treasure aboard the 180 ton San Miguel alone, which carried 22 cannons, a consignment of tobacco, and a contingent of noblemen (indicating a likely cargo of contraband coins, bullion and jewels), is believed to be very substantial. See research documentation [here]. Florida granted Amelia exploration contracts where the ancient coins were found indicating, along with archival research, that one or more of the yet to be discovered 1715 fleet ships may have been lost in the Amelia Lease Project area. Other details of the 1715 Treasure Fleet are described in the summary of the Rosario Salvage Project.


Research on the San Miguel

Compiled By: Amelia Research and Recovery,LLC

September, 1999




The following information concerning the San Miguel is referred to in the research provided by Dr. Eugene Lyon, and compiled by Jack Haskins from his own translations and those of Bob Marx, Dr. Nancy Farris, J.M. Rodriquez, and Lou Ullian, and is the best available collective source at this time on the fate of this vessel.

There were apparently two vessels sailing with the Echeverz Squadron in the Tierra Firme Fleet, sometimes called the “Galleones”. The first, a larger of the two San Miguels, sailed with Echeverz from Spain and was a “registered ship” having special permission for lading by merchants from Havana (Lyon, letter 4/94).

This San Miguel was a Vizcayan built frigate (or Buque de Aarqueo which is the rated cargo capacity of the ship – Haskins) of 180¾ tons with 22 cannon: 18 four-pounders and 4 two pound swivel guns. Her beam was 22.5’ (12 codos), keel length of 77’ (39 codos), and overall length at the “dead rises” of 83’ (44 codos). Her master was either Joseph Coyo de Melo (Lyon), or Alonso de Figueros (Haskins, translations from the Casa files). She was owned by Antonio de Echeverz.

The San Miguel’s manifest listed 62 persons on board when she left Spain (Haskins, LM11-1). There were also 62 persons on board when she went down including de Melo, Don Domingo and Tomas Moynos, citizens of Cadiz, Don Joseph Tamorlan, Guardian Jacome de Nobleria, Piolt Alonso de Silvestre and Quartermaster Domingo de Yguzquiza, plus 22 sailors, 24 grommets, and four pages (Lyon).

According to reports, she carried tobacco from Havana (Lyon). A letter from the Case de Contratacion states, it would delay Echeverz if he were to pick up 1,500,000 pounds of tobacco, so Echeverz is sending a Patache or other ship directly to Havana (from Spain to Puerto Rico then to Havana) to pick up the tobacco, and this will be a ship of 30 guns. This was probably the San Miguel (Haskins, Indiferente General 2658). There was no cargo listed on her manifest (Haskins, LM11-5), although she was sent to pick up the tobacco in Havana, and “probably had little registered treasure on board, and may be located 1½ miles off Mayport, FL” (Haskins).

According to reports, she carried tobacco from Havana (Lyon). A letter from the Case de Contratacion states, it would delay Echeverz if he were to pick up 1,500,000 pounds of tobacco, so Echeverz is sending a Patache or other ship directly to Havana (from Spain to Puerto Rico then to Havana) to pick up the tobacco, and this will be a ship of 30 guns. This was probably the San Miguel (Haskins, Indiferente General 2658). There was no cargo listed on her manifest (Haskins, LM11-5), although she was sent to pick up the tobacco in Havana, and “probably had little registered treasure on board, and may be located 1½ miles off Mayport, FL” (Haskins).

The San Miguel sailed with the rest of the Flota of 12 ships (Marx, IPO, p. 3) from Havana Harbor on July 24, 1715. There were 5 ships of Ubilla’s New Spain Flota, 6 ships in the Echeverz Squadron of Tiera Firme, and a French Ship, the Grifon, commanded by Captain Antonio Diare. The Grifon was not part of the Flota but was leaving at the same time, having received permission to sail with the Flota (Marx). “Possibly, but Diare loaded his vessel in Vera Cruz harbor, and it seems likely that he made the Gulf crossing with Ubilla” (Haskins). There is a possibility of 7 ships sailing with Echeverz from Cartagena, to make a total of 13 ships sailing from Havana (Haskins).

The total treasure registered on four of Ubilla’s ships, excluding silverware, jewelry, and a small number of gold coins, was 6,388,020 pesos. The total carried on three of Echeverz’ Squadron was 98,046 pesos in silver and gold specie, plus 955 castellanos in gold dust and bars, for a total registered cargo of 6,486,000 pesos, 955 castellanos. Spanish reports of the period indicate that 5,200,000 pesos were recovered by them by July, 1716.

The Flota was struck by a hurricane July 30, 1715, and “The number of ships lost are nine, and the two galleons missing (Echeverz) . . . there’s little doubt that they sunk on the high seas and this was proven because fragments of a ship or ships were found on the north coast of St. Augustine . . .” (Haskins, 2.20 Sept. 1715 – Salmon to the King).

“All the ships were lost except a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz Squadron, because by the time the storm struck they had taken another route (they were further north than the rest)” (Haskins, LM11-40). The day before the storm the San Miguel separated from the convoy; two days before the storm the Grifon separated; and on the day of the storm the fragata Concepcion separated (Haskins, Indiferente General 2648).

Governor Spotswood of Virginia wrote to Secretary Stanhope on October 24, 1715 stating, “the Spanish Fleet richly laden, consisting of eleven sail are, except for one, likely cast away in the Gulf of Florida to the southward of St. Augustine . . . a considerable quantity of plate is likewise cast away about 40 miles to the northward of St. Augustine . . .” (Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series, America & West Indies).

Salmon wrote to King Phillip that “the two galleons are missing. The San Miguel and the French Prize. There is little doubt they sank on the high seas, and this was proven because fragments of a ship or ships were found on the north coast of St. Augustine” (September 20, 1715).

There is a good possibility that the San Miguel was the ship that wrecked north of St. Augustine (Duro, Armada Espanola, Vol. VI, pp. 121).

On October 19, 1715 Lima wrote to Linares (Virrey de Mexico), “but from the news we received from St. Augustine, we learned that fragments of a large ship came ashore 15 leagues (about 50 miles or so – JH) to the leeward (north or south – JP) of this port, and because there are many reefs outside this portion of the coast, we fear there are no survivors from that wreck”. “This wreck might be either the San Miguel or the French Prize (Haskins, LM11-6).

From Bob Marx: The San Miguel had no cargo of any kind listed. Echeverz captured this ship from the English and she may have sailed back empty. Haskins writes: I think Bob has this mixed up with the schnooner Echeverz sold Ubilla in Havana (Haskins, LM11-5).

 

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[ivan salis]

even if it not the san miguel -- but rather simply a bark that was part of the recovery fleet --- that loaded a good bit of plate (silver) and highly placed persons upon it and was headed back to spain and wrecked in nassau sound---its still a vessel baring treasures from the 1715 fleet---- which has been clearly historically ducumented by two totally differant goverments and by highly placed local area govt people who would knowledge of such events of that there is not doubt, ---the bottom line is there is a tresure wreck there and it needs to be recovered. --- Ivan

with all due respect to jack haskins (JH) a great explorer --he is in error -- a spanish league is 2.6 miles --ie 39 miles for 15 leagues -- please check this out for yourselves and you will find that I know what I'm talking about -- most likely a red herring for wreck looters --or he used the english league --3 mile -- which would still be only 45 miles --

with all due respect to bob marx (a great exploer) he is in error also -- in the spanish archive records it was clearly recorded that the nao san miguel was detached inbound by echeverz to load a very large amount of tabbaco and was to rejoin the fleet upon their return to havana -- while she was not a main treasure vessel accord to the offical record there is no doubt that with her long stay in havana deals were made on the smuggling of gold which was rampant at the time --

there was a very small english blandra class vessel known to echeverz as the SAN MIGUEL EXCELSIOR (it was like a small schooner) taken by echeverz pataches off columbia that ubilla may have bought from echeverz ( the vessel renamed and is known as known as the MARIA GALANTE) being short of patache class vessel due to his loss of 4 of them to a storm in vera cruz mexico ,---

the proper transation spanish to english translation of the salmon letter to the king of spet 20,1715 --should read --- "on the coast north of st augustine" rather than "on the north coast of st augustine" -- remember in spanish it "the house red " --la casa roho in english its "the red house" --- a silght but highly important differance. on os the northern coast of st augustine --the other the coast north of st augustine ---

 

[mad4wrecks]

During the early 18th century, possibly a different measure for the league may have been used by the Spanish?

At sea, Spanish sailors used the usual marine league (3 nautical miles or 5556 meters) or Philip V's "geographical" league of 1/17.5 degree (3.429 nautical miles or 6350.5 meters).

source: http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictL.html (look under the Spanish league-aka the legua)

 

[ivan salis]

the old league used in 1715 was the 2.6 mile -- offically it was outlaw in the mid 1568 by phillip the I--- long before but it was still was commonly used in the spanish new world south american colonies and by sailors of the period --

many "educated" folkstranslating documents are not coming from a seafaring family backgound (my family were seaman for roughly the last 200 or so years -- I 'm the last of the line by the way -- thus they would not know of the old rare measurement -- so they in error use the more common 3 mile league used later on --- the 3 mile measure was used as a "international unit of common measure" among the seafaring world -- ivan

type in (2.6 mile league) into your search engine and see what pops up

 

[Darren in NC]

Without looking anything up, I've also heard of 2.6 miles, but also 2.9.

 

[ivan salis]

using 2.6 miles per spanish league --15 leagues comes out to 39 miles --which by the way matches up very nicely with the english report of "about 40 miles" hince why I use the 2.6 measure. thus the two reports basically agree ---39 to 40 miles northward of st augustine -- ( which would place it in nassau sound bay off amelia island )-- a recovery vessel (a bark) that was sent from havana to the 1715 fleet wrecksite where it picked up a considerible quanity of silver and VIP type (rich) persons, and that while it was trying to return to spain it later sank with no survivors in nassau sound. ---- the historical documents that note this are from the time frame and were writtten by highly placed people from two differant govts and are in basic agreement on the matter -- and thats without even saying anything about the nov of 1769 map by capt willam fuller.

 

[Chagy]

This thread has been very informative and great reading, but getting back to the topic on the ballast piles…
Did the smaller vessels, brigantines, frigates, sloops, etc. also had a ballast pile or since they were smaller vessels was it common practice to use the cargo as ballast due to the limited space……

 

[ivan salis]

well Chagy alot depended on the cargo type -- was it light but bulky items being carried as cargo? if so ballast was needed --however if it was a heavy type cargo that provided the weight needed to keep the vessel upright and stable in rolling seas, little or no ballast would have been needed--- thus it varied from trip to trip due to the types and amounts of cargo carried. ---BTW --sorry didn't mean to "hijack" --- Ivan

 

[billinstuart]

Pertaining to the 1715 fleet, my question was..if the balance of "missing" ships are smaller, lighter ships, is it possible we would never find "ballast piles" because they simply didn't carry them, replacing the ballast with "treasure"? It appears that there is a good possibility this may indeed be true. If these ships drew less water, they would have wrecked directly on the beach, rather than offshore. It's possible they were 100% salvaged? would they have been burned to prevent any further salvage?

To me, this would explain the finds at Chucks. All the small coinage would have been impossible for the Spaniards to salvage from the beach. However, cannons, chests, containers of any kind would have been easy pickings for anyone, even the indians. The salvage camp at the museum location could have served both ships. At that time there was no Sebastian Inlet to separate the two sites.

 

[Chagy]

Ivan,

No need to be sorry for the hijack, those were great post, I really enjoyed reading them and the way everyone was able to comment on their opinions "research in action" these are the threads I enjoy.....

Bill,

You are right on the money.....That is exactly what I was thinking.....I believe that is the reason why no ballast piles have been found in some of the sites that produce coins and artifacts......
Keep in mind that heavy metal will sink really fast in the sand specially with the wave action close to shore in a hurricane.....
Once the artifacts were covered by the sand it made it almost impossible to salvage...
One thing is to ran ashore when part of the vessels its still standing and another thing is to be destroyed into pieces...

Just my humble opinion. Thanks to everyone for the replys,

Chagy.......

 

[signumops]

Luis:
Beware the "Dutch Wreck", AKA La Holandesa for a pile. Probably washed completely ashore near where an old motel used to stand in the vicinity of a municipal water tower in the area of the south beach access in Vero (now vetted with huge stones going seaward from the beach). Timbers were there but were dis-creditied by State authorities who have since re-considered. Surviving Spaniards used the dry hulk for an office (supposedly) while recovering from the original disaster. This is very close to the wreck at Sand Point, ergo, you would presume that archives MUST make some mention of this... do they? I don't know either, but you can bet somebody has that answer close at hand.

Otherwise, all the vessels you mentioned in your original post do have suitable piles (er, did have thirty years ago... somewhat disturbed during that span of time). The exception seems to be the Sand Point wreck which had a puny rock pile, a number of large guns and little else (discovered so far, that is). Outside the current Fisher perimeter on that area there are some singular huge ballast stones in the hundred pound range. I have not seen them, but trust the word of those who have, and would, by the way, like to take a peek myself. Particularly interested in finding some red rocks. That would make me very happy. There are other rock piles from that era located near shore, but they are not grand-fathered in, nor will you touch them without the benefit of Admiralty.

 

[ivan salis]

the dutch wreck aka by the "nick names" of "La Holandesa" which means " the dutch" in spanish or refered to as "Olandesa" --- merely "dutch" by Capt Gen Echeverz had her upper deck wash ashore largely intact after she broke up in shallow water ---she was a small vessel -- a galera (galley) class vessel (like a small schooner) that was taken by Echeverz pataches off of tolu ,columbia -- ir was also called the San Miguel (the religous name)--- (not to be confused with the much larger NAO SAN MIGUEL) and was called SENORA DE LA POPA as well --- in a letter that he wrote to havana after the wreck of the fleet Echeverz wrote about whay was occuring "from the real (salvage camp) of the Olandesa" which means "from the shelter of the dutch" -- its ballast pile if any was most likely very small and very shallow as this vessel was a small shallow draft type vessel. it would have not been far from his main treasure vessels as it is highly unlikely Echeverz would get far from his main treasure vessels during the recovery ops for fear of looters.

 

[Chagy]

Can any one tell how many cannons were found in the Wedge Wreck site?

How many cannons was the Maria Galante carrying?

 

[mad4wrecks]

At least one came off the "urca" site near Pepper park.

 

[PyrateJim]

Where can a person find the GPS coordinates for the known ballast piles of the 1715 fleet ships located to date?

 

[mad4wrecks]

Jim: Taffi would be your best bet, if she wanted to release them at all. Maybe Weller. I was thinking about doing that myself this season if I had time, getting precise coordinates for all the ballast piles. Of course, I will pass on the info to you. maybe when you are here in May...weather permitting?

 

[jeff k]

CENTERPOINT OF SITES for 1998 treasure leases are as follows:

ABBR SITE DATE LEASE AREA LATITUDE LONGITUDE

CAB CABIN 1715 81R23/S27 N27° 49.800 W80° 25.549

ANC ANCHOR WRECK 1715 81R46/S23 N27° 48.199 W80° 24.699

CAN CANNON WRECK* 1715+ 81R438/S23 N27° 48.202 N27° 47.451

ROB ROBERT WRECK* 1821 81R47/S23 N27° 47.451 N27° 46.708

SPR SPRING OF WHITBY 1824 81R28/S23 N27° 47.479 W80° 23.629

GCB GREEN CABIN WRK*1618 81R22/S23 N27° 45.280 N27° 44.247

COR CORRIGANS WRECK 1715 81R19/S25 N27° 43.800 W80° 23.799

RIO RIO MAR WRECK 1715 81R27/S23 N27° 36.300 W80° 20.899

SPT SANDY POINT WRK 1715 81R20/S23 N27° 35.599 W80° 19.650

POW POWER PLANT WRK UNK. S25 N27° 21.199 W80° 13.650

DB DOUGLAS BEACH WRK 1715 8SL17/S26 N27° 25.299 W80° 16.500

UNK UNKNOWN WRK UNK. S23 N27° 18.999 W80° 12.300

 

[ivan salis]

if REPEAT if the the VESSEL known as the MARIA GALANTE was indeed the very small english blandra class vessel taken by EVCHEVERZ pataches off of columbia (as I think it was) and was later sold by Echeverz to Ubilla in Havana --she was very small vessel by all accounts and and as such would have been lightly armed with few cannons counting more on raw sailing speed to get away spanish vessels rather than cannons to slug it out with them in her smuggler / trader vessel mode ) Ubilla rather badly need it where Echeverz had 2 fine prize vessels --the french and dutch galera class vessels -- plus the smallenglish blandra ----which he most likely soild to Ubilla making a "fast buck" in the deal -- and since Ubilla was the SR commander on the way back --- Echeverz most likely thought it was not a bad idea to "toady" up a bit to him )--- and so what few cannons she had might have had most likely had been taken off her by Ubilla to allow her to carry more "paying" cargo while she was in Havana --- Ubilla was deeply in the "red" this trip --he had lost 4 patache class vessels from his fleet to a storm in Vera Cruz, Mexico and had to buy the MARIA GALANTE in Havana , to earn some cash by having her carrying cargo from Havana to Spain --- to cover his losses and for that he needed her to haul as much paying cargo on her as she could --since she was traveling with the fleet , --the fleet could protect her from harm thus there was little need for cannons really --- so I think she had very few if any cannons on her most likely -- but this is just a "hunch" of mine -- I admit

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Necro'ing this post.

This info is probably somewhere else around here but since this is the first one I had in a search for 1715 stuff and I think the info might be relevant because some were asking for ships types.

Firstly I see the ballast discussion often. I guess one would have to determine normal ballast load.
There’s a lot of ballast on these wrecks and some in concentrated areas but how much in relation to the "norm"

Contraband treasure… This is some that I’ve learned and some ways I tell non-treasure hunters.
Ok my books are in storage so I might need help in facts.
I always want to think it was William Phips who so successfully salvaged the Concepcion in the southern Bahamas’ chain that he got a Governorship appointment from the king for it or it was someone else in early history that while they salvaged the ship that they found more, a bunch more, something like 150% more treasure than the registered treasure. This lead to the King’s decree of death for smuggling.

A story that I’ve been told is that after the decree one favorite spot people placed smuggled gold was in “goods” in particular barrels of cochineal dye, a highly sought, valuable red dye. When The Kings customs officials met ships in Europe they would check passengers hand for signs of red dye knowing they had retrieved their smuggled gold, thus catching them “red handed.” Not sure if that is truly where the saying came from but that’s what I’ve been told and repeat it cause it’s about treasure!!

Yes gold was 16 time more valuable so it was easier to smuggle one 8 escudo than 16 -8 reales. Multiply the numbers and it just gets easier for gold to be the choice of smuggling.

I’ve been told people were ingenious in their smuggling. Putting holes into coins and sewing them into the fold on the backside of a coat’s buttons. Fashioned to look like brass shoe buckles etc…Also as I tell others that back then just like today if you leave the country and come back into the country with the “same” personal jewelry, you won’t pay import tax on it. Now many people then, just like today smuggle jewelry. Back then after assimilating and condensing their wealth into gold they would have jewelry fashioned to wear “duty free”.

Just look at the famous Atocha “money chains”. Gold converted to jewelry in the America’s but then could be broken off a link at a time in Cuba to pay for goods.

One has to remember that the people on these vessels weren’t your average joes. That sort of transportation wasn’t for the common folk. Many sold everything they had with no intent of returning. Their entire wealth was “on them” or aboard the ship. Merchants back then were well above normal standard of living. Remember it took a small fortune just to get to the Americas.

So then if you have ever been on a cruise ship, think of just the “for show” jewelry that each person is wearing. All the money in their pockets, purses was coin that went to the bottom with them. Even survivors lost their jewelry, purses and pocket contents. Think of the storm, it’s going to rip off clothing, necklaces, and rings. The people are just trying to live, swim to shore…

So now here’s some ship info I have. If you disagree with the placement of the wreck that’s ok I’ve heard days of debate on the subject and always willing to listen to more but at least there’s some info about the ships.

I’m going to post by vessel size largest to smallest.

Nuestra Senora Del Carmen- 713 tons, 72 Iron Cannons – Rio Mar?
Nuestra Senora De La Regla- 471 tons, 50-3,000lb Iron Cannons- Cabin ?
Santo Cristo De San Roman- 450 tons, 54- 3,00lb Iron Cannons- Corrigan’s?
Urca De Lima- 300 tons, 30 Iron Cannons- Wedge Wreck?
Nuestra Senora De Rosario- 312 tons, 40 Iron Cannons- Sandy Point?
Nuestra Senora De Les Nieves- 195 tons, 20 Iron Cannons- Douglas Beach?
So our smallest ship has produced more modern salvaged gold than the others?

 

[ivan salis]

the small ships - were often the privately owned vessels of the fleet commanders * (when they got to spain and had to wait "over night" outside the "bar" for the correct tide to enter the spanish harbor -- these small shallow draft vessels (often carrying with a hand picked small crew of say a dozen or so menthey could be trusted to keep their mouths shut) could easily slip into shore and off load the "contraband" gold and stuff belomging to the fleet commanders and slip back out to sea to then come in later with the fleet as if they stayed at anchor all night -- these small ships were thus ideal to help "smuggle in" illegal items and would have been heavily loaded with the commanders illegal pay offs for allowing other folks to smuggle stuff as well--smuggling was rampet * --when the 1715 fleet was first salvaged by the spanish--more gold and items were recovered than was "originally" manifested in the first place --opps * --the king of spain had some serious questions that needed to be answered by Echeverz about why more gold was recovered from the wrecksites than was originally recorded as being onboard -- after a ship wreck one SHOULD have less gold recovered from the shipwrecks than is on the manifest not more.

I firmly believe that in the case of the smaller vessels that the wreck sites are in very shallow water to on the beach --with little to no ballast sites.