bronze/iron cannons and the british navy

[wwwtimmcp]

ahem, hms victory carried 30 bronze 42pndr from 1765 to 1778 and she was built that way.

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Home HMS Victory Weapons Armament 1765
During Victory's active service life many changes were made to her and her armament. On naval ships the ordnance was commonly referred to as the 'Great Guns': this distinguishing them from the Small Arms.
1765: Original main armament

Deck Number Size
Lower gun deck 30 42 pounders
Middle gun deck 28 24 pounders
Upper gun deck 30 12 pounders
Quarter deck 10 6 pounders
Forecastle 2 6 pounders



1778 11th March: The 30 bronze 42 pounders were removed and replaced with 30 x 32 pounders. Admiral Keppel disliked the 42 pounder for the following reasons: gun crew too large; rate of fire slower and the bronze / brass guns, recoiled violently when hot).

1779 The 30 x 32 pounders were removed and replaced with 30 x 42 pounders as original. 8 x 12 pounder carronades were fitted as additional armament on the poop deck.

1780 The 8 x 12 pounder carronades were removed.

1781 2 x 24 pounder carronades and 6 x18 pounder carronades were fitted on the poop deck. 2 x 32 pounder carronades fitted on the forecastle

1783 All the 6 pounder carriage guns fitted on the quarter deck and forecastle were removed and replaced by 12 pounder carriage guns.

1788 The 6 x 18 pounder carronades were removed and not replaced.

1793 The 2 x 24 pounder carronades fitted on the poop deck were removed and not replaced.

1797 The ship now out of commission, all of the guns were removed. The bronze 42 pounders, now obsolete was superseded by the 32 pounder which had become the standard heavy gun fitted in British ships of war.

1803: Victorys’ armament when she re-commissioned after her ‘great repair' comprised:

Deck Number Size
Lower gun deck 30 32 pounders (long)
Middle gun deck 28 24 pounders (long)
Upper gun deck 30 12 pounders (long)
Quarter deck 12 12 Pounders (short)
Forecastle 2
2 12 pounders (medium)
32 pounder carronades

The broadside weight = 1092 lbs

1805: Victory's armament at Trafalgar was 104 guns comprising;

Deck Number Size
Lower gun deck 30 32 pounders (long)
Middle gun deck 28 24 pounders (long)
Upper gun deck 30 12 pounders (long)
Quarter deck 12 12 Pounders (short)
Forecastle 2
2 12 pounders (medium)
* 64 pounder carronades

The broadside weight = 1148 lbs
* The two 32 pounder carronades were removed and replaced with two 68 pounder carronades.
These carronades came from the 74 gun ship Kent.


12 pdr - short
12 pdr - medium
12 pdr - long

24 pdr
32 pdr

Victory's existing iron guns
There are 12 iron Napoleonic guns remaining on board the Victory today: 9 x 32 pounders on the lower gun deck, and 3 x 24 pounders on the middle gun deck. Each are of the Blomefield pattern, designed by Sir Thomas Blomefield, the Inspector Governor of Ordnance.

It is very unlikely that any of these guns were in the ship at Trafalgar as all were removed in 1806 when the ship was repaired. From the records the existing iron guns were put into the ship on 5 April 1808 when the ship was re-arming for deployment in the Baltic, and inspected by the Inspector of Ordnance two days later.

When guns were put into a ship, a record was made of the manufacturers name and the gun's individual number.

Manufacturers names, in the abbreviated form, were generally marked on the left trunnion. The 12 iron guns have the following marks:

W.Co. - Walker & Company, of Rotheram, Yorkshire.
H.Co. - James Henckle & Company, Wandsworth, London
ACB. - Alexander Brodie, on the River Severn

Ten of the eleven iron guns, cast by Walker & Company, are fitted with copper vent bushes, an innovation that was intoduced after Trafalgar. Guns fitted with copper vent bushes are stamped 'CVC' on top of the cascable. The twelfth gun, the 24 pounder sited near the entrance of the Victory Gallery, Royal Navy Museum, cast by Alexander Brodie has an iron vent bush.

The dockside guns
The 21 guns sited on the dockside around the Victory are short barrelled 32 pounders made during the reign of George III, but were not issued until after his death. These guns, dated either 1847 or 1848, most were manufactured by Henckle & Co. were used as the saluting battery on board the Victory when she was moored in Portsmouth harbour. These guns fired the salute to Queen Victoria on the occasion of her Coronation and also fired when her funeral Cortege passed HMS Victory on its way from the Isle of Wight for her burial. All these guns were removed from the ship in 1922.

Technical data of the 32 pounder smooth bore gun
The 32 pounders on board HMS VICTORY are long pattern Blomefield guns, designed by Sir Thomas Blomefield, Inspector General of Ordnance, at Woolwich Arsenal. Guns of this form were manufactured between 1780 and 1822. As all are cast with the cypher King George III, they would all have been made before 1820.

The length of the gun, 9ft 6ins (2.90 m), is always measured from the rear of the base ring to the face of the muzzle. The overall length including the cascable is 10 ft 3.3/4 ins. (3.14 m) Guns varied in length during the 18th and 19th centuries, some 32pdrs were 9ft long (2.75 m)with a calibre of 6.41 inches (16.3 cm). Windage, the difference between the diameter of the shot and the diameter of the bore, is 0.198ins (0.05 mm). The weight of the gun is normally stamped on the bottom of the breech. Weight is given in cwt. (hundredweight), qtr. (quarters), and lbs. (pounds) e.g. 54. 15. 10.

Diameter of Vent (the touch hole) 0.22 ins (0.05 m)
Shot weight 32 1bs (14.4 kg)
Range - Point blank 400 yds. (364 m)
Range - 1 degree elevation 820 yds. (746 m)
Range - 2 degrees elevation 1,200 yds. (1.092 m)
Range - 3 degrees elevation 1,500 yds. (1,365 m)
Muzzle velocity 1600 feet per second. (485.3 mps
Penetration of solid shot through oak:
at 400 yds (364 m) up to 42ins (106.7 cm)
Ditto at l000 yds (910 m) up to 31.½ ins (80.0 cm)
Rate of fire; approximate. 1 round every 2 minutes
Recoil distance – restrained with standard charge Approx. 11 ft. (3.35 m)
Recoil distance – Unrestrained with full 32 lb proof charge
(recorded under experiment) 50 ft 2 ins. (15.30 m)




A range table dated 1860, (produced at the naval gunnery school H.M.S. Excellent), shows that given an elevation of 8 degrees, the 32 pounder had a maximum range of 2600 yds (2,366 m). In 1805 the maximum elevation was governed by the vertical size of the gun port and limitation of the carriage, however greater elevation could be achieved by removing the rear trucks (wooden wheels).
The iron barrel was painted with a black composition to comb it from rust.The original formula for this was: "To one gallon of vinegar add a quarter of a pound of iron rust, let it stand for one week; then add a pound of lamp black and three quarters of a pound of copperas; stir it up at intervals for a couple of days. Lay five to six coats on the gun with a sponge, allowing it to dry well between each application; polish with linseed oil and soft woollen rag; it will look like ebony."
As these guns are fitted with copper vent bushes, (a liner screwed into the vent to avoid erosion from powder gases when the gun fired) it is likely that all were manufactured after c.1813 when copper vent bushes were first introduced. Guns fitted with copper vent bushes were stamped CVC, and those with iron bushed IV. These marks are found on the top of the of the cascable. Later guns fitted with copper bushes were not marked.

The makers marks are on the left trunnion. On the right trunnion is the gun number, also there is inscribed a vertical line which, used with a plumb line, the gun could be layed horizontally or levelled.

A wooden stopper called a tompion was kept in the muzzle to prevent moisture entering the bore when the gun was not in action.

http://www.richardgardnerantiques.co.uk/pages/large/large1597.html

http://www.abc.se/~m10354/uwa/glossary.htm

http://www.tigerandthistle.net/tiger114.htm

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval_History/Vol_II/P_210.html









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[Salvor007]

Wow, that is a lot of copying and pasting. Thank God for Google, right? Thanks wwwtimmcp

 

[ivan salis]

so the standard english navy heavy gun of the 1780 -- to 1820 time frame was a 32 lb iron blomefeild type long smooth bore cannon range about 2600 yards max -- while there many have been some brass / bronze cannons out there in use by some vessels (like the victory was originally )--- they were not the normal "heavy" weapon carried during the 1780 --1820 time frame but rather the exception.-- but then bronze guns were very costly compared to iron ones.

 

[bell47]

holy moly!! some of ya'll are just research machines! How in the world do you find out how a particular british warship war outfitted, especially if it wasn't a famous one. Thanks alot guys this was really some great info!!!! KEEP IT COMING---Bell47

 

[wwwtimmcp]

you guys are welcome. bronze guns were superior to iron cannon in almost every respect. the british were no dummies. every bronze gun they captured was either rebored or melted down into their calibers, you cannot do that with iron guns.

best wishes to all.

 

[Smithbrown]

The problem with googling is that although you can find the answer you want, it is not necessarily the right answer.

I am disappointed you feel able to disregard a scholar of the calibre of Brian Lavery. What about Adrian Caruana? In his Volume II of his The History of English Sea Ordnance he writes at some length on the armament of the Victory and her contemporary First Rate, HMS Brittania, and how to arm them, the Board of Ordnance ordered sets of IRON 42 pounders from the Wealden founders Harrison, and Company. (by the way one of this set still surives, in Gravesend). My own researches confirm this. (And I notice you seem to have not found the Wikipedia page on the Victory, which also states her armament was iron!- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory)

However to be honest this is a distraction from our initial query - British Naval armament in the years following the American Revolution- and you kindly published details of her later (still iron) cannons which confirms this.

I am not sure what the piece about two French guns captured by an east Indiamen have to do with this particular question, nor why we have suddenly started investigating Tippoo Sultan, since I don't believe the Navy had much to do with the taking of Seringapatim. I believe Tipoo was heavily dependent on French technology.

You are right, we British are not dummies, which is why we recast some captured bronze ordnance into our field guns, mortars and howitzers, while arming our massive Navy with products from the most up-to-date iron industry in the world. You are neglecting the position of trophies by the way, both the psychological advantage of displaying the captured guns of your enemy, and their role in teaching our forces of enemy artillery developments.

If you want to talk about all cannon in general, it would be more sensible to start a new topic, then muddy what is a very simple story.

By the way, I am still waiting for the evidence of Britain purchasing bronze guns.

Smithbrown

 

[ivan salis]

I strongly agree mr smith brown -- while i FREELY ADMIT there may have been bronze / brass "prize" guns onboard various vessels --that were rebored to the nearest british calibar -- as a rule they were not the norm --( to english capts of vessels that had such guns they were a source of great pride ) the NORMAL govt supplied naval heavy gun of the day (1780 - 1822) was normally a Iron BLOMEFEILD -- LONG 32 lber (max range about 2600 yards)-- that is if one is indeed speaking of the "typical" ship cannons normally stocked by the bristish govt upon british govt naval vessels during that time frame. --- Ivan