is this the MARIA GALANTE (ENGLISH BLANDERA) taken by echeverz pataches ?

[ivan salis]

was the english vessel reportly taken by the spanish off of porto bello ---(info from page 69 of the book "floridas golden galleons") that reportly had 25% of it owned by none other than lord hamilton of jamacia ) the MARIA GALANTE? the LITTLE KNOWN third prize along with the french prize ( EL CIERVO--THE STAG) and dutch prize ( La Holandesa or Olandesa --Senor de La Popa) galera class type vessels -- these vessels were taken by echervz's pataches while he sat in porto bello awaiting treasure. (*was this the maria galantetaken by echerevz and later sold in havana to general Umbilla to act as his patache since he was short of vessels? --- and how did the taking of this vessel factor into hamilton's backing ofenglish (pirate) raiders to poach the spanish salvage camps? ---most notibly henry jennings - the spanish emissary named VALE sent to "offically" complain about the raiders heard many accounts in jamacia that the governor of jamacia was a partner in the english raiders activities--- hamilton as a stuart supporter had no love for king george the 1st and was a well known jacobite as was jennings.

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Ivan, I have not read any information that this English prize was in any way directly associated with Lord Hamilton. Please cite your sources.

Some people have speculated that Escheverz did sell his English prize to Ubilla in Havana, (it would make sense) but we have no archival documents that bear this out for sure.

We do know that the ship Ubilla bought was a fragatilla (was the English prize a fragatilla?) named the Mariagalante, that he renamed it the Nuestra Senora de la Regla and that it was referred to as Ubilla's second patache.

This ship did sink near shore and there were survivors, including the chaplain, Padre Cabrera.
This shipwreck could very well be the one in HRD's exploration area off Vero Beach, coincidentally the next wreck just south of Ubilla's capitana (Corrigans wreck site)

Tom

 

[Chagy]

Non of the archival documentation I have mentions the name "Maria Galante" they always refer to her as Ubillas personal Frigatilla....
But I do have a letter found in THE ARCHIVE 'DE LA VILLE DE GRENOBLE' were they refer to her as the "Maria Galleta"

 

[ivan salis]

my source is the book --- "floridas golden galleons" written by burgess and clausen --- on page 69 of the book they speak of the fact that the spanish emissary VALE sent to complain about pirates to the english in jamacia was no fool -- he knew that when an english vessel was take off of porto bello earlier the captain of it had stated that the english govenor of jamacia ( hamilton) was a 25% owner --and that when VALE went to jamacia to complain of pirates that he heard numerious stories that hamilton was partners with the spanish salvage camp raiders .

hamilton backed several vessels that "offically" were to stop pirates but in fact were pirates ( the famous pirate henry jenning was one of them by the way )

was the eariler english vessel taken off of porto bello the english blandra class vessel maria gallante? and since it was taken off porto bello ( by echervez pataches one would guess ) and it was not listed as leaving with echeverz fleet upon leaving havana -- what became of it ?--- it was noted that Ubilla "bought" a friggatilla in havana being short handed --a english blandra class vessel was a smallish vessel or as the spanish would say a "friggatilla"--- could IT BE THAT the english vessel called MARIA GALANTE was captured by echererz off of porto bello ( and called SAN MIGUEL EXCELSIS BY ECHEREVZ) --then taken to havana and later sold to Ubilla who then called ir the REGLA?

I think so and it fits known facts rather nicely too. --- Ivan

 

[wreckdiver1715]

La Olandesa aka San Miguel was a Dutch ship captured the year before the hurricane off of Cartagena.
Maria Galante was a small, single masted Frigatilla built in Cuba, which was purchased by General Ubilla in Havana a short time before the fleet set sail, and was loaded with Tobaco.

Tom

 

[ivan salis]

yes -- there were 3 vessels captured by echerevz pastaches which went out looking for "illegal" traders while echerevez sat in port at in porto bello awaiting the delivery of treasure ---- the spanish thoughtof anyone who was trading with theirfolksas a form of outlaw and the crews were arrested and ships taken (spain said our people can ONLY trade with spain) --- there were by report 3 vessels taken ----one was then french galera class vessel known as (* El Ciervo (the stag) or as the french prize) another one was a dutch galera class vessel known as (* La Holandesa / Olandesa (the dutch /dutch) or the San Migeul or Senor De la Popa or simply the dutch prize) the third vessel is an english vessel * that according to the book I refer to above was taken off the coast of porto bello ( echerevz fleet area) --- it was a by all accounts was a rather smallish blandra class vessel of a type the spanish would think of as a small frigate or a "friggitilla"-- the same type of vessel that Ubilla is recorded as having bought in havana * since he was short of patache (small fast) type vessels -- also the fact that the vessel is not recorded as leaving with Echervez's fleet as it left havana makes one wonder what happened to it?--- logic tells me that Echerevez not getting as much treasure to carry as he though he would in porto bello and then having to wait along time for Ubilla to join him in havana needed some on hand " hard cash" money to buy supplies ( the trip was taking MUCH longer than it was originally planned toi take ) and he sold the english vessel in havana to make a bit of money to get supplies and make a bit of cash up front. --- the fact that the english vessel taken by Echerevez off of porto bello was in fact 25% owned by the the english govenor of jamacia -- lord hamilton (a scottish loyalist and backer of the stuart family) is very interesting item (read the book*) --if it is not the vessel sold to Ubilla then what happened to "the english prize"? --- humm maybe Echerevz sold his english prize to some local who then later "flipped" it to Ubilla when he arrived the local making a quick buck in the deal.

 

[Chagy]

Ivan,

This should answer all your questions............

A letter from the Marques de Casa Torres says that Ubilla left Vera Cruz with four ships; Capitana, Almiranta, Navio de Refuerzo, and Patache. Left on 2 May and arrived in Havana on the 24th of June. Left for Spain on the 24th of July accompanied by Don Antonio de Echeverz y Subizia.."los quatro de su arriendo y los dos prezas, Un Franceses y otro Holandera que havia hecho. Tambien acompania de navio Griffin, su Capitan Monsieur Dare que con permiso de SM vino a la Na Ea..." Also states some 1,500 people escaped drowning.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another letter from Principe de Florido over the loss of the 1715 fleet.."sobre isla de Palmar en frente de los Mimbres". General Ubilla, along with 36 passengers, was lost. Also lost on his ship were 170 sailors and soldiers; the Almiranta lost 4 passengers and 120 soldiers and sailors; Soto Sanchez lost 5 passengers and 2 sailors; the Fragatilla which Ubilla bought from Echeverz in Havana lost all hands.


All the best,

The Chagyman.....

 

[Chagy]

Maria Galante was a small, single masted Frigatilla built in Cuba, which was purchased by General Ubilla in Havana a short time before the fleet set sail, and was loaded with Tobaco.

Tom

Ahoy!!! Wreckdiver1715

Tom,

What is the source of this information? Is this first hand from the archives or second hand from a book?

Thanks,

Chagy......

 

[ivan salis]

so its as I thought it was (as per the florido letter)-- the friggatilla (a smallish frigate type vessel --which is what the spanish would have deemed a the smallish single masted blandra type vessel MARIA GALANTE / GALLETA?) that was bought off of Echeverz by Ubilla must have been the "english" prize vessel that his pataches had some time earlier taken while he was in porto bello * according to info spoke of in FLORIDAS GOLDEN GALLEONS * ON PAGE 69 where it is said that the Spanish emissary Don Juan Francisco de Vale that was sent to Jamacia to "offically" complain about the pirates was no fool "that he know that an english vessel captured earlier near porto bello that the captain had stated that lord hamilton was a 25% owner " and he also had neard numerous stories that the governer was in fact partners with the raiders --- putting out ships "offically" to stop pirating that were in fact pirates themselves --- henry jennings is a prime exsample -- hamilton was a well known house of stuart supporter (and might have been helping to fund the scottish revolt of 1715 / and jennings after giving up his pirate ways "offocally" in 1717 taking the kings pardon abd living as a planter for 25 years died at spanish hands in 1745 after taking to sea again please note the second scottish revolt was in 1745 jennings too was a scottish loyalist it seems)-- lord hamilton was drug to england in chains and tried for treason but he thru powerful freinds got off and lived out the rest of his days in peace and wealth after marrying an earls daughter. --- Ubilla the renamed the english prize NEUSTRA SENORA DE REGLA --it was his "personal vessel".

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Maria Galante was a small, single masted Frigatilla built in Cuba, which was purchased by General Ubilla in Havana a short time before the fleet set sail, and was loaded with Tobacco.

Tom

Ahoy!!! Wreckdiver1715

Tom,

What is the source of this information? Is this first hand from the archives or second hand from a book?

Thanks,

Chagy......

Chagy, my research is based on multiple sources, and verified by Bob Weller a number of years back. However, my files are locked on my lap top that is temporally a Mort.
I also believe that the "English Prize" was sent back to Spain as a messenger ship prior to the rest of the fleets departure from South America to Havana. Providing memory is serving me correctly.

Tom

 

[ivan salis]

humm according to the florido letter chagy speaks of -- Ubilla did buy a frigatilla from Echeverez in havana and all hands on it were lost when it wrecked -- the only vessel that fit that type of vessel profile that Echerevez would have had in havana would be the smallish blandra class english prize (single masted). -- known as MARIA GALANTE / GALLETA ? --

 

[mad4wrecks]

All hands were not lost on the Mariagalante. As mentioned before, Padre Cabrera survived (as did others). Carbrera gave testimony is St Augustine less than 2 weeks after the disaster.

Per my previous post: We do know that the ship Ubilla bought was a fragatilla named the Mariagalante, that he renamed the Nuestra Senora de la Regla and that it was referred to as Ubilla's second patache.

 

[Chagy]

All hands were not lost on the Mariagalante. As mentioned before, Padre Cabrera survived (as did others). Carbrera gave testimony is St Augustine less than 2 weeks after the disaster.

I agrre that the letter from Principe de Florido, Duro and others are wrong when they say the Galante was lost with all hands...

Tom, in all my documents I only have one survivor....what is your source for (as did others)?

Chagy....

 

[mad4wrecks]

I was going through my old files and found a large packet of translated archival documents from testimony given in St Augustine after the disaster. The majority of the documents deal with the rift betwen the Spanish crown and Catholic church officials (the Crusade) about who got to retain the treasure that was taken off the deserters from the salvage camps who made their way up the beach to St Augustine (and were stopped at Matanzas inlet). Part of it was Cabrera's testimony, but I was sure that it mentioned at least one other survivor on his ship. I will check again when I am done drinking these beers.

Of course, the royal officials in St Augustine were really hoping that the salvaged treasure ended up there, rather than Havana, and fretted quite a bit about their inabaility to help the surviviors very much. The same hurricane that wrecked the fleet, also did considerable damage to their city. That and the fact that they were in a 3 year drought, their payroll from Havana for that year was late, etc....

 

[ivan salis]

yah church folks in st augustine wanted the looted money taken off the to be killed deserters to be turned over to the church --since who it belonged to was "unsure" and the crown said "BS" to that the crown gets it --- fear of sticky fingers in St Augustine was the main reason most if not all of the "recovered" treasure was sent back to havana for "reshipment" again --the king's reps had more faith in the ability of havana to oversee the recovered funds with less theft than in st augustine. plus in case of pirate attack havana was much stronger