Mystery of 1563 Spanish Fleet

[Bobadilla]

Hi,

I have been searching for the 1563 fleet history in all the possible sources and I must admit that I am a little confused....

Just make a long story short..........
The fleet was originaly brought from Veracruz to La Habana where two ships from Honduras joined them. They set sail for Spain but were surprised by strong hurricane in Bahama Channel which separated five ships from the main fleet. According to one history source, supported by Claudio Bonifacio research in Seville, three ships from these five, la almiranta plus two ships originally from Honduras, managed to make a port in Montecristi, La Hispaniola island and the treasure from them (because they were not able to follow their journey) was unloaded and stored in Santo Domingo. La capitana and one more ship were lost in the storm, they managed to land in a small cay and they unloaded their treasures on it, maiking a small yard from the stones. It was supposed to be somewhere between Hispaniola and Bahamas. The survivors built a frigate from the timbers of two damaged ships and sailed for Cuba. They never reached it and sunk in a strom. Only one negro woman and one sailor survived and the story comes from them.

My investiagtions led me to the fact that three galleons from this 1563 fleet, "Santa Catalina", "San Jose" and "Santa Maria de Guadalupe" crashed against the sharp reefs of Montecristi after the heavy storm in bahama Channel and all three of them sunk there. Only "Santa Maria" was partly salvaged. Other two ships went on the opposite site of the reef to the depth of 30 meters with more than 300,000 registered pieces of eight plus more jewelry on board. Thet were never found....

Can anybody tell me something more? Thanks a lot....

Lobo

 

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[surfin]

It seems that you have a pretty specific location to start searching. What more info do you want. I found a couple things on google but nothing that more than just mentions the ships. what about the ship you say was partially salvaged. What would have happened to it besides left at the reef.

I will keep googling the ships and see what I can find. I like researching this stuff.

Surfin

 

[ivan salis]

hummm more info on the 1563 fleet in general --- seems that in the fleet left spain and after wintering over in gaudeloupe , they split each to the treasure ports -- the Neuva Espana Flota (new spain group) was headed by Capt General Pedro de las Roelas --on july 18,1563 six ships of this group were wrecked off of the southern end of cuba (jardines reef) reportly at 21 degrees N and 12 leagues from ISLE OF PINES --- type, vessel name, wieght, capt as follows --- #1 (the Capitana) --San Juan Juan Bautisa --- 150 tons --Juan de Arenas*** #2 Nao --San Juan --250 tons --Gaspar Luys *** #3 Galera class vessel (oar or sail powered) --San Salvador --350 tons --Pedro Menendez Marquez**** #4 Nao--Nuestra Senora de la Consolacion--- Juan de Barrios--300 tons-- #5 Nao --Santa Margarita-- 300 tons --Gonzalo Monte and last #6 Nao ---Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion --250 tons -- Pedro del Corro --

these vessels are reported as having mercury for the mines and general trade cargo on them so they must have wrecked before they going to the treasure ports (other wize the mercury and trade cargo would have been off loaded) --the Capitana was carrying Archbishop Salcedo -- reportly carrying a large amount of church as well as personal treasure --- the wrecks were reported to be in 9 foot to 24 foot deep -- recovery ships were sent from havana but little was saved--none of the church treasure or personal treasure of Salcedo was recoverd reportly.

* note the vessel Nao -- Santa Maria de Guadaloupe--- 250 tons -- Salvador Gomez--after being demasted wrecked at monte cristi and was reported as being salvaged by divers. (according to bob marx)

 

[wwwtimmcp]

1563 nao cristobal on a smaller cay near inagua

I remember reading a story about shipwreck survivors finding silver bars stacked up on an island in the bahama channel area. they too built a small sloop and returned to havanna and eventually reclaimed the treasure.

 

[Chagy]

Hola Compadre,

Did you read "Galleones con Tesoros" it has 15 pages of the events and letters from the AGI and the sources from where all the information came from.......I was also able to find very little information on "Armada Espanola" by Duro it doesnt say anything new but it has a source
Reg. del C. de I., fol.68.

Compadre even more interesting than the wrecks is the treasure in the cay I have "Galleones con Tesoros" I will take it with me next time I see you......Send our love to Blanq

All the best,

Chagy.......

 

[Consolación Diver]

Hey Chagy,

I have a couple of questions....Is "Galleones con Tesoros" available? I googled it and came up with no results.
Also is it in English or Spanish, who is the author? Sounds like a good source of information....Where can I buy it?

Thanks

 

[Skimmer]

Lobo-
You're a friend of my pal Chagy, and you've posted lots of interesting things over the past couple years
that I've enjoyed reading. May I suggest you be VERY CAREFUL of this Claudio B. you mentioned. I don't want to see anyone get burnt. PM me if you want more info.
Mike

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello everybody,

Thanks a lot to all who answered my topic, indeed.

Ivan.
Thanks for detailed information. The six ships lost in Cuba were really bound for Mexico and they were mentioned in AGI in Seville by a letter from Mexican Royal clerks. A lot of treasures wasloaded on board of Menendez ships, it means fleet of 1563. I am still intrigued of these five that were separated by storm and subsequently lost, because the information really vary.

I was diving in Montecristi many times looking for them but there are several spots with the reefs going down to 20-30 meters of depth. I am surprised why the company that has actually lease for this area focused their attention to the wreck that was - according to my humble opinion - already salvaged in the past, and not, for example, to these two documented shipwrecks, but it is not my business.

Surfin.
Thanks for your help in surfing the net and searching for the information!

Chagy.
My dear friend! Thanks for the answer. Blanquita is getting better and she sends you lots of hugs and kisses and to Lucy as well. (For those who are friends of Chagy and who do not know, Blanquita is my wife, so, please, do not missunderstand this message.......)
No, I do not have the complete book "Galeones con Tesoros", but one friend of mine is sending my scaned pages part by part so I can read it. By the way, I am going to send you PM because I have some news for you.

Consolacion Coin.
The book "Galeones con Tesoros" was published in 2007 only in Spanish language and it is quite hard to get, even through Amazon. It has not been published in English yet. The author is Italian historian Claudio Bonifacio who has been living for almost 20 years in Spain and as I now he has spent last 16 years searching the archive of the Indies in Seville.

Best regards to all and Thanks!
Lobo

 

[Chagy]

Skimmer,

Thanks for keepng an eye out for my Compadre, dont worry we are old pirates

Compadre,

PM me your new address and I will send you the book "galeones con Tesoros"....I know you will enjoy it
I still have your "The Funne lof Gold" I wil also send it.......

All the best,

Chagy......

 

[ivan salis]

as I noted above * the new spain flota's* six vessels which wrecked off of southern cuba (which is the mexico "fleet"* in the two fleet system) was headed towards mexico when they wrecked --- you see the fact that it listed general cargo and mercury as being "recovered" from the wrecks (the treasure on these vessels is the church treasure and Salcedo's personal treasure --if they where coming from the treasure port of mexico then the mercury and trade goods would have not been aboard them-- since they would have been removed them off the vessels in mexico once they arrived there) thus they had to have wrecked in route to mexico. as you say.

now the later wrecks AFTER the fleet took on treasure in mexico is a very differant matter of course -- thats where the monte cristi wrecks come into play at --- records show the Nao Santa Maria de Guadaloupe was demasted and wrecked at monte cristi --it also says she was salvaged ---less is known of the others but since ships in those days sailed together as a pack as much as possible to be of help to one another in case of attack or accident --- much like the 1715 fleet vessels were wrecked close to one another -- plot the wind and the course she came in from and where she wrecked at ---then plot using the same wind action ---using the ideal that the vessels were more or less within sight of one another --- then a rough course line should give you a productive hunt area to search

 

[FISHEYE]

Ivan,

If there was any mercury on any of the ships that wrecked in the DR,the reason why is that the spanish had been mining gold there since 1495.There are gold mines that are still active today.I have map and the exact location of a shipwreck on the south side of the DR.Gold,silver and mercury have been found.Who wants to partner up with me on this wreck?Lobo,Chagy and crew or anyone else with $$$ for permits,bribes,lawyers,etc?


Dominican Republic History - ABUSES AGAINST TAINOS

The hospitable Taino, pushed to rebellion by the exploitation and maltreatment they received at the hands of the incomers, were, in 1495, decisively crushed by the ruthlessness and sophistication of Spanish militarism. Chief Coanobo was captured; the Indians were put to hard labour mining and panning for gold.

By 1503, the sugarcane plantations and the gold mines were well established, but there was already a critical labour shortage caused by the treatment as slaves of the indigenous people.

After further expeditions, Columbus died On May 20, 1506 in Spain; fairly wealthy due to the gold his men had accumulated in Hispaniola. He was still convinced that he had discovered the East Coast of Asia!

 

[ivan salis]

oh yes indeed mercury was vital to gold mining -- to make sure there was no "independant" bootleg mining going on spain very tightly controlled the acess to mercury (there was at first only one source of mecury coming from the "old world" via the treasure fleets as they come over then later on a new source of mercury was found in the new world greatly speeding up spain's ability to procress ore. ---- spain very closely controlled the mercury --so only "offical" mines could get it and thus make gold from the ore -- the fumes from the burning off of the mercury in the process was deadly however so the spanish used the indains and later blacks as slave labor to do it --they died by the thousands from doing it .

 

[Bobadilla]

Skimmer,

I sent you PM yesterday, did you get it??
Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Fisheye,

I have heard about "your" shipwreck already. Talk to my friend Chagy..... Maybe we could do something together. It is delicate situation and the official policy of DR in giving permissions for salvage operations of foreign subjects in Dominican waters is tightening every day. We have our official ways, though, and Chagy knows them very well. I am always willing to start new underwater adventure, always when it is legal business and when all the serious investigation gives good percentage of success.

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Shiverme]

Hello everybody,

Thanks a lot to all who answered my topic, indeed.

Ivan.
Thanks for detailed information. The six ships lost in Cuba were really bound for Mexico and they were mentioned in AGI in Seville by a letter from Mexican Royal clerks. A lot of treasures wasloaded on board of Menendez ships, it means fleet of 1563. I am still intrigued of these five that were separated by storm and subsequently lost, because the information really vary.

I was diving in Montecristi many times looking for them but there are several spots with the reefs going down to 20-30 meters of depth. I am surprised why the company that has actually lease for this area focused their attention to the wreck that was - according to my humble opinion - already salvaged in the past, and not, for example, to these two documented shipwrecks, but it is not my business.

Surfin.
Thanks for your help in surfing the net and searching for the information!

Chagy.
My dear friend! Thanks for the answer. Blanquita is getting better and she sends you lots of hugs and kisses and to Lucy as well. (For those who are friends of Chagy and who do not know, Blanquita is my wife, so, please, do not missunderstand this message.......)
No, I do not have the complete book "Galeones con Tesoros", but one friend of mine is sending my scaned pages part by part so I can read it. By the way, I am going to send you PM because I have some news for you.

Consolacion Coin.
The book "Galeones con Tesoros" was published in 2007 only in Spanish language and it is quite hard to get, even through Amazon. It has not been published in English yet. The author is Italian historian Claudio Bonifacio who has been living for almost 20 years in Spain and as I now he has spent last 16 years searching the archive of the Indies in Seville.

Best regards to all and Thanks!
Lobo

You should be able to get the book here:

http://www.mmoya.com/america/titulos/galeones/index.html

 

[Chagy]

Mercury was a way of monopolizing the mining industry…..Even privately owned mines in the new world had to pay a percentage to the King of Spain, no only they had to pay a percentage they were also required to purchase the mercury from the King and pay for the transportation this payment had to be made in the precious metals to ensure they didn’t go to any other countries….

In the Chaunu “Le Trafic” volumes you can see al the vessels that departure and arrived Spain from 1504 to 1650 many merchant ships were send every year with mercury to the new world……

 

[Vox veritas]

My book is written by historical primary source and it has been gotten researching in several historical archives, contrarily it happens in many "ghosts" authors that have invented and others followed its "prints" like parrots.
About the not very edifying comments of my reputation, this it is my link with some credential letters: http://www.arrakis.es/~histres/credenciales.htm

Best regards Claudio

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Claudio, when is your book going to be published in english? A lot of potential customers here.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hola Claudio,

Yo le mande un email personal hace una semana, con algunas preguntas especialmente sobre la flota de 1563, pero usted no me ha contestado hasta ahora. Ha recibido mi email? Gracias por la respuesta,
Lobo

For those in Treasurenet who do not speak Spanish there is an exact English version of my message because I respect you all guys....

Hello Claudio,
I sent you a personal email about one week ago, especially with some questions about the 1563 fleet, but you have not answered me yet. Did you receive my email? Thanks for the answer,
Lobo

 

[Vox veritas]

Hi Scuba ......
the book is translating in English to publish it very soon. For the time being it will be published this year in Italy and France.
Thank you for the interest. I am already planning to write the second part with an up-to-date about the Mercedes.
Cheers