Cob found in California

[Tom_in_CA]

A buddy of mine is a nugget hunter from the sierra foothills area of CA. And as you know, sometimes nugget hunters come accross other un-intended items, like coins or whatever This particular nugget producing region he was hunting, isn't far from where there had been gold rush era (late 1840s to early 1850s-ish?) camptowns. Go figure, the boom-towns sprung up in regions where, still to this day, would be regions where nuggets would be, eh? Nugget guys work the tailing piles of yesteryear, for example, where occasional old industrial just (nails, iron, etc..) got mixed in.

At this particular hunt site area in Placer county, he and his buddies had "incidentally" found a few coins over the years. Like an 1840's seated quarter, a $5 gold (I dunno the year of that one) and some Chinese cache coins. Well imagine my friend's surprise when this cob turned up. Can anyone venture a date or ID? I think I see the "17...." but can't make out more digits.

I've heard of a few cobs being found in CA, but it would be very hard (theoretically) to find them here. Because go figure: aside from the explorer era, the first permanent European toe-hold was not till 1769 (San Diego) and into the 1770s. And even then-so, was only along the coastal and coastal valleys, supposedly. And even then-so, it wasn't till nearly 1800, that the entire non-indian population numbered more than a few thousand in the entire state! (primarily around the missions, pueblos, presidios, and related sites). The interior central valley, and sierra foothills area is, as far as all accounts go, was un-explorered and un-charted. Heck, some maps still thought CA was even still an island up till then!

So we are guessing this cob must have circulated up till the gold rush era. That makes this very unusual, because as you know, cobs had given way to milled coins, by as early as the 1730s. A few mints and countries still did cob style till the 1760s perhaps, before transitioning to cobs? So you can see that a cob lost in, say the earlier part of the gold rush of the late 1840s, would have required nearly 80-ish years of circulation!

Spanish coins did circulate here in CA in the early gold rush times (as we had, up till then, been a Spanish and Mexican settlement). Milled Reales are not uncommon to find here And do turn up in sites that date to as late as the 1850s/60s here. as there was initially a "coin shortage", since the SF mint didn't get started till the early 1850s. But typically their dates are like the 1820s to 1840s or whatever when you're talking sites at the tail end of the period when reales circulated here. While nothing would have prevented cobs from being circulated with reales too, it is quite a stretch!

The other cobs I've heard of being found were near Monterey, San Diego, and another near San Francisco, etc... Places that had European influenced toe-holds by the 1770s, for example. I've found nearly 50 reales in my time hunting CA, dating back to the 1750s, but have never found a Cob here.

I invite comments on the ID of this, the value, and any comments on the provenance. thanx!

[goldcoastwayne]

I really enjoyed your history of the region and the background of your find.

For starters, determine if the coin is actually silver. Then weigh it so that we can get a better idea of the denomination and authenticity.

I haven't seen anything quite like that before....any normal cob markers seem to be inverted and we only see the perimeter in the shape of a cross on one side with the perimeter raised. It could just be the lighting and the use of a flash in the photo...are the brown markings actually indentions? If so I think it is a cob. It just takes several times looking at it to determine if the brown is raised or indented. Is that the way it came out of the ground?

goldcoastwayne

[goldcoastwayne]

After further comparison with plates of cobs, I can tell you this: Your cross type is known as a Jerusalem Cross. That style cross was most popular from the late 1600's to the mid 1700's. The examples I see were used by the Potosi mint and the Lima mint. I personally can't make out much more detail that would refine my identification of your coin. There are several others on this thread that may be able to convey more detailed information. Nice find!

goldcoastwayne

[Mackaydon]

Probably Potosi ('P' to the left of the crossbar). Value will be highest as a conversational piece--along with your great narrative. Denomination is, as "GCW" also mentioned above, determined by the coin's weight. Start with a piece of eight weighing about 27.5 grams. If the coin weighs over any 1/8th measurement, then it's denomination is at least one denomination higher. The usual denominations were 8,4,2 and 1, though 1/2s exist.
These early Potosi cobs contained over 93% silver (except just before the 'transitional' period of 1652). The consistancy of that percentage made them easily negotiable (acceptable in trade) for many years (and we've read several times on these threads that the Pieces of Eight remained legal tender in the US till the Civil War period).
Don........

[Tom_in_CA]

Don & goldcoastwayne, thanx for your input. Naturally md'rs here in CA would have less know-how about things earlier than the 1750s, because the settlement time-line of the USA. So I appreciate your input. I've forwarded this link to him for his input.

If it were found in a sandbox, modern site, etc... it would be easy to conclude that it is a "pocket piece". Ie.: some kid takes a coin to school for "show & tell" from his father's collection, etc... But being as how this was found where they already knew some gold rush era coins were found, it led him to believe it was a legit. find, and not something else.

[cuzcosquirrel]

There is a chance it might have circulated and come up in the gold rush or in the return from the US- Mexican war. It looks like a Lima 1 real to me. The date for any Spanish activity in your area would have to be after about 1750.

[Mackaydon]

Cuzco,
You may be right though I was basing my Potosi guess on its mint producing shield cobs for 78 years (1574-1652) versus Lima's 12 years of producing the same shield type cobs (1572 and 1577-88).
Don...

[Iron Patch]

Cool find, and it's strange about all your Spanish silver finds and never a cob. That being said, every cob I've found was from an early French settlement here, or had one close, and those sites are only make up a few % of our total sites. The vast majority that date late 1700s/early 1800s have never spit out a cob. It almost seems there was a strict cut-off date they stopped circulation, but I don't think that was the case, because by all accounts silver was silver here for a very long time.

PS We have never found a cut piece of Spanish here which is something I thought would have turned up by now. Funny how it goes sometimes.

[Mackaydon]

IP:
If a count could be taken, I'd bet we find more Chinese coins here in Ca. than Spanish.

[Iron Patch]

IP:
If a count could be taken, I'd bet we find more Chinese coins here in Ca. than Spanish.

Those we don't have many of... Thank God. I only have two.

[cuzcosquirrel]

Now that I see the P on the left side of the cross, I agree that it looks more like a Potosi pillar and waves style one real.

[goldcoastwayne]

Now that I see the P on the left side of the cross, I agree that it looks more like a Potosi pillar and waves style one real.

I totally agree with this summation. This means that the year it was minted is as early as 1652 or as late as 1773. Due to the reasoning in previous posts, it is quite likely minted in the early to mid 1700's.

goldcoastwayne

[divewrecks]

Potosi 1 reale, pretty sure the third digit is a "6" (shows slightly on both sides). I'm guessing the last is a "3" (from the pillar/waves side), so 1763 is my guess. Cool story....

Stan

[Tom_in_CA]

thanx everyone for the comments so far.

Mackaydon, are the Chinese coins you're referring to, the "cash" coins? Those are super common in CA. They turns up in chinatown districts by the handfuls sometimes. They turn up in the gold rush china-camp areas, Railroad worker camps, and chinese fishing village sites. Heck, I've even found them in sites from as recent as the 1920s. They can be super old too (dating to dynasties in the 1600 and 1700s sometimes, if you know to read the symbols). But they're absolutely worthless, and the dates mean nothing in relation to their circulation/time-of-loss.

[Mackaydon]

Tom, yes, those are the ones I'm referring to but "worthless" they are not for they have great conversational, educational and California historical value.

[treasurehuntr2]

A buddy of mine is a nugget hunter from the sierra foothills area of CA. And as you know, sometimes nugget hunters come accross other un-intended items, like coins or whatever This particular nugget producing region he was hunting, isn't far from where there had been gold rush era (late 1840s to early 1850s-ish?) camptowns. Go figure, the boom-towns sprung up in regions where, still to this day, would be regions where nuggets would be, eh? Nugget guys work the tailing piles of yesteryear, for example, where occasional old industrial just (nails, iron, etc..) got mixed in.

At this particular hunt site area in Placer county, he and his buddies had "incidentally" found a few coins over the years. Like an 1840's seated quarter, a $5 gold (I dunno the year of that one) and some Chinese cache coins. Well imagine my friend's surprise when this cob turned up. Can anyone venture a date or ID? I think I see the "17...." but can't make out more digits.

I've heard of a few cobs being found in CA, but it would be very hard (theoretically) to find them here. Because go figure: aside from the explorer era, the first permanent European toe-hold was not till 1769 (San Diego) and into the 1770s. And even then-so, was only along the coastal and coastal valleys, supposedly. And even then-so, it wasn't till nearly 1800, that the entire non-indian population numbered more than a few thousand in the entire state! (primarily around the missions, pueblos, presidios, and related sites). The interior central valley, and sierra foothills area is, as far as all accounts go, was un-explorered and un-charted. Heck, some maps still thought CA was even still an island up till then!

So we are guessing this cob must have circulated up till the gold rush era. That makes this very unusual, because as you know, cobs had given way to milled coins, by as early as the 1730s. A few mints and countries still did cob style till the 1760s perhaps, before transitioning to cobs? So you can see that a cob lost in, say the earlier part of the gold rush of the late 1840s, would have required nearly 80-ish years of circulation!

Spanish coins did circulate here in CA in the early gold rush times (as we had, up till then, been a Spanish and Mexican settlement). Milled Reales are not uncommon to find here And do turn up in sites that date to as late as the 1850s/60s here. as there was initially a "coin shortage", since the SF mint didn't get started till the early 1850s. But typically their dates are like the 1820s to 1840s or whatever when you're talking sites at the tail end of the period when reales circulated here. While nothing would have prevented cobs from being circulated with reales too, it is quite a stretch!

The other cobs I've heard of being found were near Monterey, San Diego, and another near San Francisco, etc... Places that had European influenced toe-holds by the 1770s, for example. I've found nearly 50 reales in my time hunting CA, dating back to the 1750s, but have never found a Cob here.

I invite comments on the ID of this, the value, and any comments on the provenance. thanx!

I hope I'll be able to post this correctly for you to see. It was recommended that I post this in this cob section to find out more. I was intrigued with this post and thought this might be a good place to start. I am attaching photos of the cob I found at a place here in the S.F. Bay area(east bay) that was being demolished. Just an older victorian place that had been neglected too long. Anyway, not much more than that can be said but here's a look at what , as I mentioned in the "what is it " section, is what I'm 99.9% sure is a real cob. Thanks for looking. TH2.

[goldcoastwayne]

Your find is a one reale that was minted in 1699 at the Potosi Mint (Bolivia). The assayer "F" made coins from 1697 - 1701. His name is unknown. The obverse of the coin is classified as a "pillars and waves" type and the reverse displays a Jerusalem cross. When you have a chance, give us the weight of the coin. This will give us a very good idea whether it is authentic or not, assuming that the coin is silver. Nice find!

goldcoastwayne

[divewrecks]

Assayer "F" was Tomas Fernandez de Ocana. Nice find. Thanks for sharing!

Stan

[goldcoastwayne]

Nice Stan....at the time that Frank Sedwick's 2nd edition of "The Practical Book Of Cobs" (1/90) was published, he stated that the assayer was unknown. I will put a note in my book....thanks! If you could give us your reference for this information, that would be great.

goldcoastwayne

[Mackaydon]

Thanks Stan, the assayer isn't in Sedwick's Third Edition (1995) either.
Don...