Wish List Filler - ID Help?

[CRUSADER]

I brought this to fill a Wish List hole until I finally get one I've had a couple of copper cobs but no silver.

Can you answer the following?

Is it a Mexico Mint? (hard to make out)

What is the date range, as it's not visible? (I think 17th C, can this be narrowed)

Is $140 too much to have paid?

It's 26.57g & as far as I can tell it looks OK

Thanks, I know you guys will nail it

[Mackaydon]

Mexico City mint was the only mint (from about 1572 onward) to have the globes (spheres) at the extremities of the cross. It's an 8 real as noted by the "8" to the right of the shield and the weight (27.468 would be the 'ideal' weight of the '8'). The pattern of the shield will provide insight into which king (and reign).
The Bourbon shield pattern is similar to that of Philip V during the period 1714/1715. One difference, that I can't distinquish is the number of small fleurs-de-lis to the right of the central pattern of the three f-d-l.
If three are to the right, then it's 1714; if two, then its 1715. I'll rely on the experts who lurk here for the exact ID.
Don.....

[CRUSADER]

Mexico City mint was the only mint (from about 1572 onward) to have the globes (spheres) at the extremities of the cross. It's an 8 real as noted by the "8" to the right of the shield and the weight (27.468 would be the 'ideal' weight of the '8'). The pattern of the shield will provide insight into which king (and reign).
The Bourbon shield pattern is similar to that of Philip V during the period 1714/1715. One difference, that I can't distinquish is the number of small fleurs-de-lis to the right of the central pattern of the three f-d-l.
If three are to the right, then it's 1714; if two, then its 1715. I'll rely on the experts who lurk here for the exact ID.
Don.....

Sorry, forgot, I knew it was an 8. But sounds like I may get a pretty tight date, cheers

[Trez]

The dot in the center...leads me to believe 1714. That dot appears on Gold Escudos dated 1714.
I never seen it on any other year, but that doesn't mean anything

Trez

[cuzcosquirrel]

I agree with this. That dot pellet in the Bourbon shield is also found on gold 1714 cobs. The coin has enough detail to be desirable and is above average when compared.

[CRUSADER]

Thanks guys, I knew you could help, these are way out of my area of knowledge

Did I pay about the right amount? How much would you expect this to be? Cheers

[Mackaydon]

Cru:
Sedwick, one of the sponsors of Treasure Net, is having an online auction on the 27th for Mexican reales. You may wish to follow the action and price results of that auction to see how his sales prices of similar (never identical) items compare to your cost.
http://auction.sedwickcoins.com/Trea...=all&ca=860004
Don........

[realeswatcher]

The Bourbon shield pattern is similar to that of Philip V during the period 1714/1715. One difference, that I can't distinquish is the number of small fleurs-de-lis to the right of the central pattern of the three f-d-l. If three are to the right, then it's 1714; if two, then its 1715.

The dot in the center...leads me to believe 1714. That dot appears on Gold Escudos dated 1714. I never seen it on any other year, but that doesn't mean anything

I agree with this. That dot pellet in the Bourbon shield is also found on gold 1714 cobs. The coin has enough detail to be desirable and is above average when compared.

First... We're assuming this is a 1715 Fleet piece... This same general design (referring to the Austria bar with space all around it, the stretch of the Naples/Sicily crest, and the standing block-footed lions) was used from 1714 through about 1724. Of course, most of the extant pieces of this design were salvaged from the Fleet, so that's "probably" where this came from... but others do exist.

If it IS 1715 Fleet material, it does have to be 1714 or 1715.... it has the shield style of 1714 and following (plus the lion style of 1714 and following). This is as specific as Ponterio, for example, gets when auctioning undated Fleet cob 8R ("shield of 1702-14" vs. "shield of 1714 and up" - mainly using the Austria bar as a point of reference, I assume). I don't know the specifics (if any) of what could differentiate the shields of 1714 from 1715 on the SILVER pieces. Hard to figure it out simply by comparing photos, even of multiple coins, since a piece that shows a date is often missing most of the right half of the shield). I have never seen a specific write-up or diagram of this info (granted, I don't have a lot of the really detailed books). Does anyone know of one? Maybe that "Shipwrecks and Their Coins: Volume 3 - 1715 Spanish Treasure Fleet" booklet, or the book by Alan Craig on the 1715 Fleet pieces owned by Florida?? The Calico book?

I have the Schulman Nov. 1972 catalog (major 1715 Fleet auction) which diagrams the breakdown of the shields on the GOLD... However, this does not carry over perfectly to the silver. For example, they don't show any of the 1714 shields on the gold escudos being of the "1713 style"... but some 1714 silver 8 Reales do indeed bear this older shield style. Don pointed out using the Burgundy crest as a diagnostic -- (3) small f-d-l in 1714 but only (2) in 1715. The Schulman catalog's diagrams for the gold generally indicate this, EXCEPT they also include a diagram of a transitional late 1714 style with only (2) f-d-l. Maybe that setup doesn't exist on the silver?

Also, regarding that dot in the middle of the central fleur-de-lis escutcheon... In a short search, I find at least (2) 1715-dated 8R with the dot (incl. the example in Sedwick's upcoming auction), so that can't be used as a diagnostic. As an aside, from looking at a few pieces and from what the auction catalog shows, the dot you are referring to on the gold pieces also seems to be in a higher position - above/between the two upper fleur-de-lis, as opposed centered between all three as on this silver piece. See this undated 1714 4 Escudos from a Ponterio auction:



Long story short... It's an undated 1714-24 Mexican 8R, likely 1715 Fleet (which would make it 1714 or 1715), appears genuine, with decent detail and strike plus good centering, front and back well matched... somewhat 'ticky' surfaces, but no corrosion. $140 is about right, not outrageous, not a bargain.

[ivan salis]

looks like a 1714 /1715 era type mexico mint 8 reale cob like those found at the 1715 fleet wrecksites to me --- its in decent looking shape if its indeed a 1715 fleet shipwreck coin -- $140 is a good fair price for it in my veiw.

[CRUSADER]

thanks for the comments on price, at least I wasn't ripped off

[cuzcosquirrel]

There are small changes in the shields and the designs from year to year in most of the cobs during the 1680-1730 period. I have seen some dated 1714 Mexico gold cobs without the dot from the Florida Collection book. I think no one has done a real intensive study and publishing on them besides the sources everyone already knows. There are probably several reasons for this. The silver coins Florida Collection book might have a decent chapter with sketches of many of the silver 8 real cob sub types from the 1715 fleet.

The edge rounding strike pattern on your coin is very apparent and looks typical for the 1715 fleet finds.

[Iron Patch]

Thanks guys, I knew you could help, these are way out of my area of knowledge

Did I pay about the right amount? How much would you expect this to be? Cheers

I would have said high at first, but being you can actually date it to 1714 you should have no problem getting that amount if sold. I had a very nice Bolivia 8 reale cob several years back and if I was more into collecting wouldn't have let it go. They're pretty cool coins.

[CRUSADER]

Thanks guys, I knew you could help, these are way out of my area of knowledge

Did I pay about the right amount? How much would you expect this to be? Cheers

I would have said high at first, but being you can actually date it to 1714 you should have no problem getting that amount if sold. I had a very nice Bolivia 8 reale cob several years back and if I was more into collecting wouldn't have let it go. They're pretty cool coins.

The gap fillers don't get sold until I find my own I do like it alot, chucky one edge & thin the other (kinda wedge shaped)