1663 1 Reale - Real or Fake... Overweight
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  1. #1

    Feb 2020
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    1663 1 Reale - Real or Fake... Overweight

    Ok. So I got this 1 reale in Nicaragua. 1663. Potosi. The problem is it is 4.4 grams. I weighed it on 2 different scales and they agree on 4.4 grams. I acquired it from a local in a very rural town, way off the tourist path. There would be zero market for flogging fakes to gringos where I was. But it is far overweight. Is it a fake? Is it a contemporary fake from the proper time period? I have 4 photos. 2 are before I cleaned it up a bit with electrolysis. And 2 are after I cleaned it up. I got it with 2 other Potosi 1 reale coins. A 1654 (proper weight) and an overweight 1672 (3.8 grams). What do you think?Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by NicaJake; Jun 22, 2020 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #2

    Feb 2020
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    16 times
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARC View Post
    Real... IMO of course.
    Were overweight coins common? It should be around 3.4 grams I think

  3. #3
    Charter Member
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    An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

    Oct 2004
    N. San Diego area (Pic of my two best 'finds'; son and grandson)
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    Looks real but the weight is a red flag.
    Don.....
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  4. #4
    Charter Member
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    ARC

    Aug 2014
    Bahia Del Espiritu Santo - "Bay of the Holy Spirit”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackaydon View Post
    Looks real but the weight is a red flag.
    Don.....
    I have to agree.

    There is also another red flag after closer inspections.

    Your post was a little confusing at first.

    IF there are fakes... they are not known fakes... err at least they are not listed in in the database I just ran it in.
    Last edited by AARC; Jun 22, 2020 at 01:53 PM.
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    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  5. #5

    Feb 2020
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    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Yes the weight is a big flag. What was the other thing you noticed? Thank you for your insight.
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  6. #6
    Charter Member
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    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
    4,282
    1911 times
    IMO, it is a contemporary counterfeit. Neat piece. Besides the overweight, there are 2 red flags. First, Erguetta's assayer mark isn't the typical strong bold capital E. The lower bar of the E in both is off. Also, the 3 on the pilllars side looks off to me. Might just be a style variation, but Erguetta is known for his strong designs. Keep in mind, it was under his guidance that the Potosi mint transitioned from the shield to the pillars/waves design due to the mint scandal. Knowing of the consequences of producing improper weighted pieces and the subsequent death sentence, I can't imagine that Erguetta would knowingly be producing cobs that didn't meet standards. Now, the process of cob production doesn't mean that the assayer was personally producing every single cob themselves. So there is a possibility that some pieces that didn't meet standards would slip through quality control.
    AARC, NicaJake, Mackaydon and 1 others like this.

  7. #7

    Feb 2020
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    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Ya, it's an odd one. Who would bother making a very good fake of a not very valuable coin? The old buildup of crud suggests it is very old indeed. Is there a history of very old fakes out there? Long ago, the coin may have been valuable enough to try and copy..

  8. #8
    Charter Member
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    ARC

    Aug 2014
    Bahia Del Espiritu Santo - "Bay of the Holy Spirit”
    JW 8X V.2 - ML X2 - VP 580
    23,796
    63192 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    IMO, it is a contemporary counterfeit. Neat piece. Besides the overweight, there are 2 red flags. First, Erguetta's assayer mark isn't the typical strong bold capital E. The lower bar of the E in both is off. Also, the 3 on the pilllars side looks off to me. Might just be a style variation, but Erguetta is known for his strong designs. Keep in mind, it was under his guidance that the Potosi mint transitioned from the shield to the pillars/waves design due to the mint scandal. Knowing of the consequences of producing improper weighted pieces and the subsequent death sentence, I can't imagine that Erguetta would knowingly be producing cobs that didn't meet standards. Now, the process of cob production doesn't mean that the assayer was personally producing every single cob themselves. So there is a possibility that some pieces that didn't meet standards would slip through quality control.
    Also agreed and mentioned by DD is one of the other things I noticed.

    IF this a fake it is one of the better ones I have seen due to the "overall look" and conditions.

    Did you test silver content ?
    NicaJake likes this.
    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  9. #9

    Feb 2020
    28
    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Contemporary counterfeit. That would be pretty cool. I presume they are hard to come by? Have you seen many examples of contemporary fakes?

  10. #10
    Charter Member
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    Dec 2008
    St. Augustine, FL
    4,282
    1911 times
    Quote Originally Posted by NicaJake View Post
    Ya, it's an odd one. Who would bother making a very good fake of a not very valuable coin? The old buildup of crud suggests it is very old indeed. Is there a history of very old fakes out there? Long ago, the coin may have been valuable enough to try and copy..
    You have to keep in mind that if you were to produce a counterfeit, you want it to pass without scrutiny not so much as targeting the largest denomination. An 8R was not a circulating coin. It was used for large purchase and mainly as military pay where many were pressing the King's interests in Europe without pay for months. When the treasure fleets came in, and the money was distributed, the back-pay was substantial. By producing a 1R, it can be used to pay for goods without close scrutiny. Think of the modern day Henning nickel.

    And to answer you question on contemporary counterfeits - yes. They exist. As long as money has been produced, there is someone trying counterfeit it.
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  11. #11

    Feb 2020
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    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    No I have not tested the silver content. I wouldn't know where to start. Any ideas?

  12. #12

    Feb 2020
    28
    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    You have to keep in mind that if you were to produce a counterfeit, you want it to pass without scrutiny not so much as targeting the largest denomination. An 8R was not a circulating coin. It was used for large purchase and mainly as military pay where many were pressing the King's interests in Europe without pay for months. When the treasure fleets came in, and the money was distributed, the back-pay was substantial. By producing a 1R, it can be used to pay for goods without close scrutiny. Think of the modern day Henning nickel.

    And to answer you question on contemporary counterfeits - yes. They exist. As long as money has been produced, there is someone trying counterfeit it.
    Thank you for your comments. I'll throw up a photo of the 1672 that is also overweight.

  13. #13

    Feb 2020
    28
    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by AARC View Post
    Also agreed and mentioned by DD is one of the other things I noticed.

    IF this a fake it is one of the better ones I have seen due to the "overall look" and conditions.

    Did you test silver content ?
    Thank you for your comments.
    AARC likes this.

  14. #14

    Feb 2020
    28
    16 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Acquired at the same time in the same place. 1672. Potosi. 1 Reale. Overweight. 3.8 grams. A second contemporary counterfeit? Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #15
    Charter Member
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    ARC

    Aug 2014
    Bahia Del Espiritu Santo - "Bay of the Holy Spirit”
    JW 8X V.2 - ML X2 - VP 580
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    63192 times
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    I deleted my original "real" post, So not to confuse people. heh

    And I must admit...

    I did not read your post and only looked at the coins at first... and just read the title asking if real and then just looked at the pics... was laying down and reading would have required me to lean up... but from that position they looked good though.

    I apologize for being slack :P

    But they did look good.
    Last edited by AARC; Jun 22, 2020 at 03:57 PM.
    NicaJake likes this.
    DETECT WITH RESPECT - Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

 

 
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