1816 1/2 Real

[dirt doctor]

I posted this on today's finds a couple of guys thought it was a counterfit . One suggested I post it here for examination . Is it counterfit ?
H H ,
George

[Mackaydon]

Here are three tests. In total, there are not conclusive but will get you started.
Original Specs:
Weight: 1.7 grams
Diameter: 18 mm
Fineness: .896

[Moe (fl)]

I remember seeing a similar posting a while back (this year).

There are variations of 1/2 reales. Here are some examples:

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvie...=395&Lot=74883

http://cgi.ebay.ca/SPANISH-MEXICO-18...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mexico-1820-J...QQcmdZViewItem


HH.
Moe

[Moe (fl)]

Here is the posting I was looking for. It has some additional pics of 1/2 reales.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,164302.0.html

- Moe

[Captn SE]

George, what is the letter on the reverse of your coin that's after "IND"? It's a little blurry to make out. Is it an "R"? That would be correct for a 1/2 Real.

But what is the next letter after that? A "Z" ?? That would be okay for a Zacatecas mint coin, but then why would there be a big "M" after that? Usually, Zacatecas mint Reals/Reales have only the Z with a little "s" next to it for Zacatecas mint. In addition, the big "M" doesn't seem to have the little "o" above it, for a Mexico City mint coin. I'm really confused about this.

After looking at all the links that Moe gave you on other Reals, the bust of yours still doesn't look identical to any of the busts of those other Reals in those links. It's close, but not exact.

You sure have one unique coin there. Very fascinating and mysterious.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

[dirt doctor]

Thank you for the great info and pictures Mackaydon and Moe ,After seeing some pictures of the different varieties ,so far mine does seem a bit more crudely made . I have yet to find my scale in this dump site I call my office .Regardless of wether this is a counterfit or not , this find of a Reale era/type
coin has really put a new excitement into my hunting .I will keep you posted as I try to unravel the origin of this coin . A friend on another forum says it looks like a Zacatecas mint A.G. 1/2 Real and the weight should come in at 1.69g .

H H ,
George

[dirt doctor]

Hi Dan ,

I didn't see you there , you must have zipped in while i was in the slow process of adding my post to this thread . Thanks for the new clues . The back of that coin is worn in a way that makes the edge lettering extremely hard to make out . With what you have told me you've given me some clues that may help me decipher what is written . I have a 60 power loop I bought from my Optometrist several years ago , hopefully that along with some real good lighting will enable me to see it more clearly .
Thanks Dan and good luck on your continued quest for that deep-azz Silver .
H H ,
George

[Mackaydon]

I'll take a stab and say it's a 1816 1/2 real from Zacatecas (armored bust minted from 1813 through 1819. The diameter should be 18 mm and the legends should read: FERDIN. VII DEI. GRATIA 1816 (obverse); HISPAN.ET IND. R. Z. M. A. G. (reverse).

[dirt doctor]

I'll take a stab and say it's a 1816 1/2 real from Zacatecas (armored bust minted from 1813 through 1819. The diameter should be 18 mm and the legends should read: FERDIN. VII DEI. GRATIA 1816 (obverse); HISPAN.ET IND. R. Z. M. A. G. (reverse).

Yes Dan and Mackaydon I put a magnifier on it and both your observations on that coin are correct . It weighted in at 1.9 . When I get back from a little hunt I'm going on , I'll measure the width and the fineness .
Thanks again Sirs !!
H H ,
George

P.S. Should be getting a scanner in the next few days and I'll try to get some better pictures of this Baby .

[Don in SJ]

I have looked and looked and just could not find a similar coin from that mint in the same year group and being a Half Real. But, I still am suspect of the crudeness of the lettering and the date. Afterall, the mint mark was of one of the Royal mints and the statement I found on the interent which I attached seems to indicate that crude coins were numerous and of low quality silver, meaning the weight could be right or heavier but still a counterfeit. Then only a Specific Gravity test would help determine whether it is more silver than base metal.

Here is a statement I found on the web:
In terms of War of Independence "one from each major mint" set, I think going with Royalist Provisional Mints would be the best direction, since Insurgency created numerous local, crude issues in low quality silver that later were melted down by Republican Mints.

Royalist Provisional Mints of the Mexican War of Independence:

Chihuahua Mint 1810-1822
Durango Mint 1811-1821
Guadalajara Mint 1812-1822
Guanajuato Mint 1813, 1821-1822
Sombrerete Mint 1810-1812
Zacatecas Mint 1810-1822

I only suspect counterfeit due to the uneven lettering and the uneven date, I have no idea what the bust should have looked like for that year. It is entirely possible (I guess) for that year the coin was made from crude dies.

Here is a side by side comparison of an 1812 Half Real my son found this year (Mexico City mint) with the 1816 Half Real in this post. Posted just to show the difference in lettering and date.

Don

[Mackaydon]

Don in S. J.

The 1/2 real, silver, armored bust from Zacatecas has three varieties. The first is dated 1811 or 1812; the second is dated between 1813 and 1819 and the third is dated 1820 and 1821. The reverse of the earliest dates states MONEDA PROVISIONAL DE ZACATECAS around the circumference. The 'middle' variety states HISPAN. ET IND.R.Z.M.A.G. and the 1820 and 1821 variety states HISPAN. ET IND.R.Z.R.G.

Dirt Doctor's coin is of the second variety (1816) while the one you posted is of the first variety. This may explain, in part, while Dirt Doctor's and your coin differ, other than in the date.

I have no idea of whether or not DD's is counterfeit.
Don......... (in SD)

[dirt doctor]

Wow , Don thanks for sharing all that info . After seeing pics of other Reals mine almost looks like Mr. Magoo posed for it .Even though the pictures of other reals I have seen are more are worn , I can still see that mine seems like a very radical departure from the rest . This is getting more intriguing by the
minute .

H H ,
George

[dirt doctor]

Hey Moe , Thank you so much for all the info you sent the other day somehow I didn't see it til' now . I am really sorry about that !! I guess I'm just getting old and rummy .It sure seems like there are a lot of variations when it comes to Reales . I'm beginning to wonder if I will ever find out if mine is counterfit or not .

H H ,
George

[Don in SJ]

Mackydon, if you reread my post I said my son's coin is Mexico City Mint, so it is not any variety of the Z mint. I am pointing out that for a coin to be from a Royal mint as in the quote I posted from the internet that the lettering and numbering should not be crude like DD's coin is. The statement I posted said crude examples were made during that period, and DD's coin looks somewhat crude compared to the Mexico City mint that I posted along side of it.

Again, weight cannot always be a determining factor, without all the all the other data. Diameter and Specific Gravity. Base metal can be mixed with the silver to raise the weight .

A photo of a legit 1816 Half Real, would really help, to see if the dies were made crudely or not.

Don

[Mackaydon]

Don:
I agree a good pic of a real 1/2 real from 'Z' would help. I note on page 161 of Frank Grove's book, Coins of Mexico, Quarterman Publications, Inc., Lawrence, Mass.(1981) that he shows pics of the three 'Z' varieties I mentioned yesterday. The coins shown are dated 1812, 1817 and 1821. Unfortunately, the coins depicted are shown at their actual size and the quality of the print doesn't lend itself to scanning and pasting here; and that would probably be against copyright law anyway.

George:
If you can find the above referenced book, you may wish to compare it to yours. Good luck.
Don.........

[Captn SE]

Heritage Auctions had an 1818 1/2 Real which sold for $44 back in '96, from Zacatecas. Unfortunately, there is no photo of it. Here's the caption from HA:

Ferdinand VII 1/2 Real 1818 Z.-M.A.G. unlisted by Krause but listed as Calico 1253. Decent detail for the type and rare. VG/F.

With the data provided on this thread, now I know there are 3 varieties of this 1/2 Real from Zacatecas (1811-1812, 1813-1819, 1820-1821), and that the lettering on the reverse of George's coin for the middle variety (IND R. Z. M. A. G.) is a true Real for that date.

So it looks like the "Onza Main Book 1611 – 1873", written by the Calico brothers, 1986, may contain a better pic of this coin.
I would love to see a pic of another besides George's between 1813-1819. Looks to be a rather rare coin for lack of a good pic somewhere on the Net.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

[dirt doctor]

Don , Don and Dan ,
Thanks guys you're really being a tremendous help !! I'm going to seek out the Calico Bros . book you have mentioned . Along with any others I may run into about this subject. I just may know a place that has it . I will give them a call tomorrow .Meanwhile I'll do a little web surfing and see what I can dig up . I'll keep you posted .

H H ,
George

[Moe (fl)]

Here is an 1819 2-reales authentic coin from the Zacatecas Mexico mint. The face looks similar to yours. This is a very rare coin (worth over $150).

What is the diameter of your coin?

- Moe

[dirt doctor]

Here is an 1819 2-reales authentic coin from the Zacatecas Mexico mint. The face looks similar to yours. This is a very rare coin (worth over $150).

What is the diameter of your coin?

- Moe

18 mms . I'm looking for my micrometer to find the thickness .
George

[dirt doctor]

Here's a couple of newer pictures hopefully thy are a little better .

H H ,
George