BUYER BEWARE! 1712 2 Escudos on Ebay. Fake or Real???

[TNBob]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SPANISH-GOLD-COB...QQcmdZViewItem

There are several problems with this coin but the most obvious is the weight at 6.8 grams with the bezel. The coin is clearly underweight and it most likely weighs in at 5 grams subtracting out the bezel weight, but it doesnt look cut down. The certificate is very suspicious. None of my friends who are coin experts have ever heard of the dealer who authenticated, but he may have been around in the 1970s. This coin if very puzzling, it appears to have coral in the groves of the cross and file lines in the periphery. I consulted a couple of experts who said the coin has issues. While I am not saying that it is a fake reproduction coin, it is very suspicious. This appears to be a very old bezel as well and the color of the gold looks bad but that could be the photo.

I just want to hear your opinion on this coin, I have mine and I would not touch it. If it were 24kt solid gold it might be worth 190- $200 in todays market, but I cant see someone bidding it up to $355. Please do not harrass the seller of the coin. There is no direct proof that it is a fake. I have asked the seller for edge scans and diameters but have yet to get answers or photos, he did say that he would take a return on it if it is not authentic. He may not know about the coin and I dont think there is any intent to defraud anyone so leave him be, he is a legitamite ebay seller with good feedback. Lets just keep this discussion on the page and go from there.
TNBob

[cuzcosquirrel]

Yeah, I wondered about that too. It's a die match for coin 11.00618 in the Craig book. Man, I got outbid on it. I don't really want it or need it, even for just the gold.

I would like to hear the arguments for why it might be a fake besides the weight. I just asked the guy if it was popped out of the necklace frame or not when he weighed it.

You would think that its weight would be marginally more than 6.8 with the coral on it.

I was wondering if the guy who signed the certificate was someone who worked with Kip Wagner in 1965 on the cabin wreck, and if this was one of the coins pictured in the Jan 1965 National Geographic on page 2-3 or page 36.

Anyone know off-hand the National Geographic that has the other 1715 article in it? I think it was from 1969 or 1970.

[Bigcypresshunter]

Anyone know off-hand the National Geographic that has the other 1715 article in it? I think it was from 1969 or 1970.

I have it. I will have to look for it.


ADDED:Ive been looking but I cant find it.

[TNBob]

Ok, here are some pros for the coin. I looked in Craigs book last night and it does match the 1711 type K on page 64 in the appendix but that is a galano design. Notice the three vertical lines in the shield. It does not match the Type N 1713 coin. It does not match type L or N 1712 coins but this could be a die variation but it most likely matches type O Omxj 1711-1712 ,that type has the diagnostic curved line in the shield as read in the description.

Cons: The edges dont look consistent with any fleet coins. It looks to have been hammered several times from the sides to make the gold at the edge pop up as if someone was deliberately trying to fix cast edge lines to make them flat. I realize that some of this went on occassionally at the Mexico Mint in that era, it doesnt look like the vast majority of fleet coins in Craig's book. Their edges were filed down to make the weight exact resulting in flat spots with the occassional file marks that we see on fleet coins. Also, most coins are more irregularly shaped as made in the cob form. Also, the gold does not look of high carat but that could just be the photos. I have delt in gold nuggets and bullion coins since 1999 and Im no expert in fleet coins but I know 22K gold and refined gold or raw nugget gold of 22K is very bright and lustrous. The Spanish mint standards were very high at that time in the exact refining of gold to 22K and weight standards were high on gold coins produced. Fleet coins have bright luminous surfaces even after having been underwater for almost 300 years. Coral deposits are present on fleet coins but it usually consists of small micro deposits in the crevises.

Coins found by the Fishers and their contractors where often cleaned and polished for resale and jewelry use, this coin is jewelry. The bezel appears very old which is a positive for the coin and Im not aware of Robert Thomas SCRC which I assume is South Carolina Rare Coins. The most obvious con for the coin is that the seller emailed me that the weight of the coin and bezel is 6.8 grams together. The coin edges do not appear to have been cut down as they dont show areas of chizzle or knife marks to account for the weight loss. More research is required into the person who made the certification. Ok what are your opinions?
TNBob

[cuzcosquirrel]

Yeah, he just answered me also and it is 6.8 with the holder on the coin. So it's very underweight, and the assayer J was pretty good with his weights. This would probably make it a fake. Maybe it is 14kt.

The hammer impressions on the outside made me wonder too, as they are on the wrong side and at the wrong angle, and are on a coin that overall looks pretty round. It looks like someone was trying too hard to make it look good. and the striking is a little strange, like it might be a mold lift. The hammer strike pattern makes it look like it was never shaved and went straight into the remusa of 1715 and ended up in a wreck.

But it's a great replica, and the white coral type stuff is a good touch. The tech. level to make one like this is pretty high. But its not hammer struck and flattened correctly. A person would have to read into the tecnology used at the Mexico mint in the early 1700's and understand it to correctly make it look "good."

[gwdigger]

The item ended at $1336.00. Someone either got a very good deal or the really got hammered.

[cuzcosquirrel]

Here's an interesting one: a 1713 Lima 8 Escudos:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1713-GOLD-EIGHT-...d=p3286.c0.m14

This is supposed to be a 1708 die changed to make it a 1713. Probably the most uneven flan and worst double strike I have ever seen on a pre 1715 Lima escudos.

[gwdigger]

This looks to be a legitimate 1713/2 Lima 8 escudos. Most likely 1715 fleet. Not the prettiest in the world but truly a scarce coin.

[Bigcypresshunter]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SPANISH-GOLD-COB...QQcmdZViewItem

If it were 24kt solid gold it might be worth 190- $200 in todays market, but I cant see someone bidding it up to $355.

worth a bit more.

[TNBob]

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just realized you are refering to melt down value. 8)

[Michigan Badger]

This is a bit off topic but generally I stay away from gold coins and cobs offered on ebay. I get some but directly from the finders whom I know are honest.

I dropped out of the unseen buy gold mode back several years ago after reading the threads of various "experts" on the Ancient Coin Forum.

Basically what they were saying is (as I understood it anyway) that since gold remains stable it's virtually impossible to prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that any gold coin is genuine.

They taught that one looked for the most likely and went by faith after that.

Now, maybe I misunderstood but even today that makes pretty good sense to me in light of gold's great enduring qualities.

What do you all think?

MB

[divewrecks]

I would say most fake coins are made by the investment casting process. It is possible to make a very accurate reproduction using this process assuming good "jewelry making" practices are employed. I did a little bit of jewelry making in a college art class.

I think that with a decent microscope and a little experience looking at coins it wouldn't be too hard to tell a cast surface from a struck surface. This asumes of course that there is not a lot of wear on the coin being studied. I suppose you could make dies to strike your own cobs, but I don't think counterfiters have gone to that trouble yet.

I too would like to hear other opinions.

Stan

[cuzcosquirrel]

I will throw up a couple pictures of the ones i have done sometime. I don't like describing what I do in detail because it uses a process I worked out myself back in the 90's through trial and error, and is probably pretty hard to figure out.

My jewelry coins were cast using a pretty decent platinum, dental grade caster. I have only had some partial success with a regular, old gold ring casting machine I own myself, and they have never been at the weight of the originals, the jewely being about 30% heavier in 14kt.

I have recently been working on making a die set for a 1698 Mexico 4 escudos to do a one off strike for a friend. I've had a hard time lineing up the crown and shield on the Obverse.

I worked last summer on money chain gold links for awhile, and figured out the correct steps for annealing them and bending them around to make decent links.

There are a few addatives in the gold that was used in Peru and Mexico that would take some research to fake. The inclusion of any modern metal alloys or mixtures would of course, tend to suggest that a coin was fake.

[Michigan Badger]

I've always wanted to play with making my own hammered cob reale reproductions just to see how good I could get at it.

Obviously the difficult thing would be making the dies and next would be the alloy problem.

But it would seem to me that even crudely casted silver cobs that were exposed to the ocean for several years would fool a lot of average people. Now, I wouldn't do that but I'm just saying I bet they would.

Think of using cull genuine cobs, melting them down, and then casting them into quality repro rare types worth $$$$$. Then make a harness to fasten a basket to a stable obstacle such as a pier piling (or oil rig pilings like those in the China sea). Those cobs working in that basket and being bombed by ocean sand over a few years would look a lot like the real shipwreck thing I'll bet.

But we all know nobody would ever do this, right? Did somebody say "China?"

[divewrecks]

I've always wanted to play with making my own hammered cob reale reproductions just to see how good I could get at it.

Obviously the difficult thing would be making the dies and next would be the alloy problem.

Actually the alloy wouldn't be a problem. You could cast crude sheets out of pure silver to the appropriate thickness. Pure silver is more ductile than alloyed so there would be easier stamping, less chance of planchet splitting, and longer die life.

But it would seem to me that even a crudely casted silver cobs that were exposed to the ocean for several years would fool a lot of average people.

Actually is does take that thick black layer of silver sulfide some time to form. I'm talking about the ones that never left the ocean before being found. They don't even look like coins. I think Kip Wagner talks about skipping them across the water thinking they were flat rocks. He eventually changed his mind of course.

Think of using cull genuine cobs, melting them down, and then casting them into quality repro rare types worth $$$$$.

You mean like Mel Fisher did with all the Atocha ingots that weren't "pretty enough"

Then make a hardness to fasten a basket to a stable obstacle such as a pier piling (or oil rig pilings like those in the China sea). Those cobs working in that basket and being bombed by ocean sand over a few years would look a lot like the real shipwreck thing I'll bet.

My company pays NASA to do beach exposure tests for us. Look here:

http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/beachcor.htm

Stan

[divewrecks]

I don't like describing what I do in detail because it uses a process I worked out myself back in the 90's through trial and error, and is probably pretty hard to figure out.

How does it it differ from traditional lost wax (investment) casting? Are you talking about the way that you "cast" your wax models? Don't give me detail, just a general idea. I work in the materials and processes group of a major defense contractor, so I'm just curious.

I have only had some partial success with a regular, old gold ring casting machine I own myself, and they have never been at the weight of the originals, the jewely being about 30% heavier in 14kt.

Is that a cenrifugal casting machine? I guess your coins are bigger (physically greater in volume) since the 14K is probably less dense than the typical cob gold (I think).

I have recently been working on making a die set for a 1698 Mexico 4 escudos to do a one off strike for a friend. I've had a hard time lineing up the crown and shield on the Obverse.

I was thinking you might be able to photo etch the pattern into the dies. I've never really researched modern die making techniques for coins, but it is an interesting subject.

Stan

[Zephyr]

I've gotten pretty good at making my own one-off master copies of replica doubloons and reales in resin (oops! I've gone and said it.) Haven't gotten around to reproducing them in pewter yet though.
No fancy tools, just craft supplies, patience, and practice. I'd post pics, but my computer refuses to recognize my camera driver....

[cuzcosquirrel]

[img=http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6254/p1000592nq5.th.jpg]

Here is a pic of some ones I did not use. There is a Lima 2e 1699 in there, A Mexico 1705 2e reverse, a Couple of fleet type 2e back and fronts from SFDB, and parts of that Mexico 1698 4e I was talking about. There are also a Lima 1699 and a Charles II 2e I made for myself. The silver chain is based off the gold whistle chain from the Atocha, I think. There are also a couple destroyed links from the money chain experiment that I was testing.

[Michigan Badger]

If you don't mind I'll continue to run-off about making fake cobs. I guess the dark side within secretly gets a kick out of the idea

I've cleaned more Spanish cobs than I can even recall now. I did this for collectors and dealers. I also cleaned some of the "Silver Riders" (ducatoons) from the Vliegenthart (Flying Heart). Those "Riders" were a real challenge! Many just turned to ashes. After a time they just sold them uncleaned and fully encrusted.

Anyway, over the years I learned a few tricks and methods.

One myth you read a lot is that rounded edges on cobs usually means they're fake. These rounded edges happen because back in the 80's-90's we mostly cleaned cobs with rock tumblers filled with steel shot. This was after we burned the heck out them with electrolysis! It's one of the great wonders of our day that any had any detail left after cleaning.

Back a few years ago we had a member here on TNet who told of a relative of his in California who made a good living during the 60-70's making fake cobs. He said he purchased genuine silver repro pieces of 8 and after doing certain things to them he sold them as genuine old cobs. He did this for many years until his death and nobody ever caught on.

At the time that guy posted that story I knew that sort of thing was entirely possible.

Myth no. 2, you can tell genuine cobs by their pitted surfaces. Take an old cull silver coin and put in a rock tumbler with aquarum gravel and water and run it for 8 hours. Pull the coin and look at the surface. It will start to look like an electrolysis cleaned shipwreck coin. Run it for 24 hours and it will sell for a good price on ebay to shipwreck find lovers (and there are many). This same thing works great on silver cobs. A COMMON type smooth land dug cob only brings about 1/2 as much on ebay as a shipwreck cob with pitted surface (and big story).

The bottom line is this, the really only sure way to know you have the genuine article is to bring it up from a wrecksite yourself. Or, buy it with a thick genuine black encrustation.

I personally think 99% of the cobs sold on ebay are genuine. But what I'm saying is, for absolute surety, the only way is to find it yourself.

That's just my view at this time and maybe I'm all wet?

MB