Continuum

[arcana-exploration]

actually it wasn't alan that said 5k should be the limit..it was me...also both alan and i have better sense than to sink our life savings into chasing a legend that has more holes in it than swiss cheese..its fun to read about but i wouldn't waste a thin dime looking for it...if i had the urge to search for a lost mine or treasure it sure wouldn't be in a wilderness area that you couldn't drive to or claim if you found it

I stand corrected, corrected, I apologize, to Allan. But as I stated we all agreed, before we went on this venture not to go into any personal savings, just use disposable income that we have set aside for vacations. And we would not do it forever ongoing and we put a limit on how much disposable, income we would invest and after the last trip, we had reached that. The thing is everyone knew how close we were to our goal. The problem was access to the upper site we could not get up there and we had hit our agreed limit out of pocket. We realized the only way we were going back is if our guys trained with professionals and that they would go with us. So Davey and Rodger have been training in southern Ohio going up and down 100 - 150-foot cliffs. The thing is we did not want to go beyond are agreed, the amount then Capt hit the scratch-off for a million dollars, which the cash amount is 500k and after he and his wife put 140k in two sep plans he ened up about 360 plus the 140 to the good. Not exactly a million but still very nice. Since everyone on the team owns a piece of the book, we all agreed that Capt Daves offer to underwrite our finale trip made sense and the first money to come from the book goes to pay Capt Dave back. So the loan is to Arcana, and thankfully interest-free. As I stated earlier we have been best friends since the early 80s. So hopefully when we get up there, there is a lot of neat stuff to photo - record and document. Thanks, Jeff. Rodger says we will find a taco stand up there.

 

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[sgtfda]

There will be something special at the rendezvous this year. It will be announced in a few weeks.

 

[azdave35]

I stand corrected, corrected, I apologize, to Allan. But as I stated we all agreed, before we went on this venture not to go into any personal savings, just use disposable income that we have set aside for vacations. And we would not do it forever ongoing and we put a limit on how much disposable, income we would invest and after the last trip, we had reached that. The thing is everyone knew how close we were to our goal. The problem was access to the upper site we could not get up there and we had hit our agreed limit out of pocket. We realized the only way we were going back is if our guys trained with professionals and that they would go with us. So Davey and Rodger have been training in southern Ohio going up and down 100 - 150-foot cliffs. The thing is we did not want to go beyond are agreed, the amount then Capt hit the scratch-off for a million dollars, which the cash amount is 500k and after he and his wife put 140k in two sep plans he ened up about 360 plus the 140 to the good. Not exactly a million but still very nice. Since everyone on the team owns a piece of the book, we all agreed that Capt Daves offer to underwrite our finale trip made sense and the first money to come from the book goes to pay Capt Dave back. So the loan is to Arcana, and thankfully interest-free. As I stated earlier we have been best friends since the early 80s. So hopefully when we get up there, there is a lot of neat stuff to photo - record and document. Thanks, Jeff. Rodger says we will find a taco stand up there.

wow...with all the dough you wasted on this adventure you could have fed half the starving kids in Ethiopia

 

[arcana-exploration]

No Howard Graves is from Ohio and has taught History, English, and writing. He was one of my professors and we have become good friends, over the years, he is our editor. he is a cool guy, actually has a band and set up stuff at a recording studio in Ohio. He is a friend, a confidant, and part of our team. No Howard Graves has never been to the Dons Club. Capt Dave and I went to it in 2015, it was early on and we just went and listened to try to understand, nature of all things relating to the LDM and Supers, we did not say much just listened. On Sat I sat with Salvador for over an hour and we talked about many things, great man, the real deal.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I don't recall making any judgement on you or your team, especially regarding funding.
I was simply pointing out that success will put your friendships to the test and that you each should be conscious of it.

Yes my quotes are coming back out of place also? This is for Hal and Allen thanks for all the great advice, seriously thankyou, both.

 

[arcana-exploration]

wow...with all the dough you wasted on this adventure you could have fed half the starving kids in Ethiopia

I would some starving kids hear first, but the Ethiopia thing is sad for sure.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I think you have the quotes mixed up...among other things

You are correct my bad.

 

[Al D]

You are correct my bad.

It’s OK, stuff happens, I want you to know that I am not trying to discourage you, or rain on your parade.
whatever you have discovered, it is significant and historical, and I thank you for brining it out into the public view.
I am interested in reading your book, when it gets published.

 

[markmar]

I stand corrected, corrected, I apologize, to Allan. But as I stated we all agreed, before we went on this venture not to go into any personal savings, just use disposable income that we have set aside for vacations. And we would not do it forever ongoing and we put a limit on how much disposable, income we would invest and after the last trip, we had reached that. The thing is everyone knew how close we were to our goal. The problem was access to the upper site we could not get up there and we had hit our agreed limit out of pocket. We realized the only way we were going back is if our guys trained with professionals and that they would go with us. So Davey and Rodger have been training in southern Ohio going up and down 100 - 150-foot cliffs. The thing is we did not want to go beyond are agreed, the amount then Capt hit the scratch-off for a million dollars, which the cash amount is 500k and after he and his wife put 140k in two sep plans he ened up about 360 plus the 140 to the good. Not exactly a million but still very nice. Since everyone on the team owns a piece of the book, we all agreed that Capt Daves offer to underwrite our finale trip made sense and the first money to come from the book goes to pay Capt Dave back. So the loan is to Arcana, and thankfully interest-free. As I stated earlier we have been best friends since the early 80s. So hopefully when we get up there, there is a lot of neat stuff to photo - record and document. Thanks, Jeff. Rodger says we will find a taco stand up there.

Jeff

Do you believe Waltz in his 70's would need climbing gear and climbing skills to get at his mine? Even Dr Thorne blinfolded?

 

[sdcfia]

A comment on pursuing our hearts' desires. Sterling Hayden found himself a successful Hollywood actor, but gave it all up to write books. Before all that, he was a licensed Master Mariner. Here's a well-known passage he wrote about throwing caution to the winds:

... To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.

"I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.

What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.

The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.

Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? ...

 

[Hal Croves]

Jeff

Do you believe Waltz in his 70's would need climbing gear and climbing skills to get at his mine? Even Dr Thorne blinfolded?

Smart. But if there is one, chances are that there are several. Waltz is a side note to a long, fascinating and mostly lost history.

 

[Hal Croves]

There will be something special at the rendezvous this year. It will be announced in a few weeks.

Tease.

 

[arcana-exploration]

It’s OK, stuff happens, I want you to know that I am not trying to discourage you, or rain on your parade.
whatever you have discovered, it is significant and historical, and I thank you for brining it out into the public view.
I am interested in reading your book, when it gets published.

Allen Thank You coming from you with your knowledge, that means, a lot. Maybe at the end of our next trip, before we head back to Ohio, we can meet for breakfast. And Allan I will send you a book gratis for all the knowledgeable info and help you have given us, also you can critique it for me which a lot of people will of course do, but very few with the overall vault of history you have, an overall understanding of the known facts, and how they fit and relate to one an another. Thank you. Jeff.

 

[azdave35]

Allen Thank You coming from you with your knowledge, that means, a lot. Maybe at the end of our next trip, before we head back to Ohio, we can meet for breakfast. And Allan I will send you a book gratis for all the knowledgeable info and help you have given us, also you can critique it for me which a lot of people will of course do, but very few with the overall vault of history you have, an overall understanding of the known facts, and how they fit and relate to one an another. Thank you. Jeff.

jeff...you need to realize that if you come on here claiming to have found the ldm you are going to get blasted..you will be ridiculed..laughed at and every other thing imaginable..especially when you are saying it takes a skilled cliff climber to get to it...waltz was an old man ..he never climbed up a cliff like spiderman to get to his mine...if you believe the holmes deathbed story waltz said he killed a couple mexicans that were working the mine..he said nothing of climbing a cliff and killing them...he just walked up on them and did the deed...you did not find the ldm...i have been to some of these mines that people claimed to be the ldm and they turned out to be either lead or copper mines...or low grade gold...back in the 30's when the depression was on people worked low grade mines and if they made only a few bucks a day they were glad to get it...arizona is dotted with these type of mines

 

[Oroblanco]

jeff...you need to realize that if you come on here claiming to have found the ldm you are going to get blasted..you will be ridiculed..laughed at and every other thing imaginable..especially when you are saying it takes a skilled cliff climber to get to it...waltz was an old man ..he never climbed up a cliff like spiderman to get to his mine...if you believe the holmes deathbed story waltz said he killed a couple mexicans that were working the mine..he said nothing of climbing a cliff and killing them...he just walked up on them and did the deed...you did not find the ldm...i have been to some of these mines that people claimed to be the ldm and they turned out to be either lead or copper mines...or low grade gold...back in the 30's when the depression was on people worked low grade mines and if they made only a few bucks a day they were glad to get it...arizona is dotted with these type of mines

Amen to that brother.

Over 200 different people have claimed to have found the LDM in over 200 different places. They can not ALL be right. Most of them had no gold at all, some few did but nothing like what Waltz had. (One single exception which of course is hotly challenged today) There is a statement attributed to Waltz in which he said, (working from memory not a source book so corrections are welcomed) "you could drive an Army pack train over my mine and never see it." If this statement is true, the mine cannot be located on some remote inaccessible spot. A pack mule can walk virtually anywhere you can walk, but cannot climb up cliffs.

If you remain a member here for any length of time, you will see a new person (or group) show up posting how they found the LDM using ___ (fill in the blank) and of course NO gold from what was said to be the richest gold mine in the world, with enough gold left showing in the mine to "make millionaires of twenty men" spoken at a time when gold was selling for $20.67 per ounce. Clearly we have had a lot of folks claiming the honors of having found the LDM but really have not found it at all.

 

[Oroblanco]

An afterthought - some years ago I had made up a map marking the various "mines" of earlier Dutch hunters, all of whom had been digging in some spot in the Superstitions where they felt the site fit with some set of "clues". At the time I was compiling the map and list, there were over 40 of these old shafts and tunnels, and some were just shallow pits dug into the rock or ground. Since that time (early 1980s) I have seen several of those old prospect holes claimed as the LDM here on T-net. A treasure hunter seeking the LDM would not go wrong to locate these old diggings if for no other reason than to be able to rule them out, because of the forty plus that I knew of, only two had any gold at all and it was far from enough gold to pay for beans!

 

[Loke]

I am a tad taken by the idea that there is a single vein (from a single geological event) that gave rise to most of the gold ever encountered in the Supes. It is well underground for most of the way, but does surface now and again - the LDM might be one of these, the Wagoner's ledge likewise. Yes, one is supposed to be in white quartz and one in rose quartz - but ... I still maintain you could have both created within the same geological event - the host rock would play a large part.
Any takers on this idea? (I believe I have tried this theory before, but mostly have got a 'nah' ...)

 

[deducer]

The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.

This is pure poetry. Just beautiful writing. I got a copy of that book when you first mentioned it- and it was a worthwhile read!

 

[Oroblanco]

I am a tad taken by the idea that there is a single vein (from a single geological event) that gave rise to most of the gold ever encountered in the Supes. It is well underground for most of the way, but does surface now and again - the LDM might be one of these, the Wagoner's ledge likewise. Yes, one is supposed to be in white quartz and one in rose quartz - but ... I still maintain you could have both created within the same geological event - the host rock would play a large part.
Any takers on this idea? (I believe I have tried this theory before, but mostly have got a 'nah' ...)

Almost anything is possible in geology, even gold in coal. It seems unlikely that a single VEIN could be at the root of the various lost mines of the area but certainly not out of the range of possibility that a single EVENT could have created them all.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Jeff

Do you believe Waltz in his 70's would need climbing gear and climbing skills to get at his mine? Even Dr Thorne blinfolded?[/QUOThank

Markmar Thanks for the question. First, everything I have researched, on Dr. Thorne said they left near a Pima village, not far from Fort Macdonald, he was blindfolded going and coming, and the only time he was not was when he received, the gold was set on the canyon floor for him to pick up. Most accounts say the gold was brought from the source, but not the spot he received it, I believe, this is the excepted account, that most people know about so why would need climbing gear, kind of an odd question? As far as Waltz at 70 going there, I do not think he went to the mine once his health was failing, as he got older I believe went to maybe one and then later maybe two of three stashes. He did not go there from what I understand in the last 10 years of his life. Obvisoley you have not read our site I covered this at great length. In the late 19th century there was a 7.4 earthquake, that was centered in the Supers, this was long after his death. I have covered it on our site how we can see the origanal path on the way up but the middle of the path has collapsed down into the below. This has left several areas where the only way up is to repel while hanging out on a cliff. We have tried everway around this area, there is none. So no early on he would not have needed tech gear, now you, do that is one reason it is still untouched
Markmer have you ever hiked into the interior in the Supers, if not you would not understand, how brutal the place is. Please read our site, I explain this at length and just don't skimp over it but really read it. Thank you for your questions. Jeff.