Continuum

[azdave35]

in fact I for get what the law is called but if you found a gold bell and you scratch it to see if it is gold you have broken the law ...you can not deface any artifact in any way or move or dislodge a artifact from its resting place in any way .. I for get what law is called . it is catch all BS law ... and I do believe it is federal law ...

treasure and antiquities law

 

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[sdcfia]

actually its not my reasoning..its the law....1984 was the end of hunting for the ldm...that's the law..go check it out...its a wilderness...about all you can do is hike in there...you are in there bucking for a book or tv show and for that you better get a permit and if you have disturbed any native american sites it will get real ugly...the feds regularly monitor forums like this one...and you are correct about the hundreds of others that have been in the mountains looking for the ldm...the difference between you and them is they aren't silly enough to come on a public forum and confess their crimes..

Are you serious? "Crimes"? What "crimes"? In this case, I'd have to side with arcana-exploration's right to explore the wilderness area, document their discoveries and photograph them. I don't recall the need for a permit to enter a wilderness area. The Man's vast collection of laws do prohibit filing mining claims and disturbance and/or removal of historical objects, yes, but I don't believe the group's stated intentions include those violations. Is it a "crime" to write a book about the LDM's alleged location within the wilderness area? Good luck with prosecuting that one. Now, there may be red tape encountered with the "commercial filming" aspect of their search and/or drone usage. If so, I imagine things could be worked out later for "crimes" such as these if the alleged discoveries are valid.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Are you serious? "Crimes"? What "crimes"? In this case, I'd have to side with arcana-exploration's right to explore the wilderness area, document their discoveries and photograph them. I don't recall the need for a permit to enter a wilderness area. The Man's vast collection of laws do prohibit filing mining claims and disturbance and/or removal of historical objects, yes, but I don't believe the group's stated intentions include those violations. Is it a "crime" to write a book about the LDM's alleged location within the wilderness area? Good luck with prosecuting that one. Now, there may be red tape encountered with the "commercial filming" aspect of their search and/or drone usage. If so, I imagine things could be worked out later for "crimes" such as these if the alleged discoveries are valid.

Thanks, everyone for the input, but our personal agreement to each other on Arcana is that our mission is to document in print and photo's, our story about, how five good friends, went on a journey to Arizona, and much to our surprise has actually found something, that may we do not yet know. But agreement states that Aracana will not remove anything, nor will any member themselves remove, or break any laws, and everyone has signed and witnessed. Also, we are not interested in filing a claim or mining either public or private. If it was the LDM to me that would be rare and important bred among mines, and it would certainly be historic and therefore, no claim would be permitted and in my opinion, should not be permitted, it needs to be protected. I am a Tree hugging conservative liberal. And I would say in general I am very conservative, I could say maybe independent, and I love this country. That being said I am an admirer of Tom Kolenburns life, he was in those mountains and wrote about looking for LDM, I do not think he broke any laws. I believe he wanted to keep places secret to protect them. In general, I agree with that, except in this day and age I do not think that is a guaranteed possibility, not like back in 1961. There is too much hi-tech help. In my opinion, the best way to preserve the site is to make it public and let the authorities protect it. I have already shortly before the book comes out we will let them know, so they can protect it. But it is a very fragile area, so people could view it from afar and appreciate it without being on top of it. It is a piece of American History and belongs to the American People, it just needs to be buffered properly. I will be 73 in February, I have a form of a rare form of MS if writing and sharing our story does ok then maybe the guys on the team(all younger than me will have a little reward for being such good friends). And keep in mind my main objective with the book was to tell the team's story and share our journey I really did not think we would find anything. As I wrote a few pages back Rodger says we will get up there and there will be a Taco Stand. We have no plans to do a TV show, we had thought about it but have cooled to that idea. The premise to the book is our story truthfully told not something like that phony, producer-driven Legends of the Superstition Mountains. Our book is to share from the view of five regular guys the beautiful Supers and the Legend that the majority of Americans can relate too. The only thing we will do is pick up if we find it a small sample of quartz, for verification, and I checked but as long as we do not dig, it will be legal. If tested and proves to LDM we would then donate it to the Dutchman Museum so folks could share. Thanks for all the input.

 

[Hal Croves]

actually its not my reasoning..its the law....1984 was the end of hunting for the ldm...that's the law..go check it out...its a wilderness...about all you can do is hike in there...you are in there bucking for a book or tv show and for that you better get a permit and if you have disturbed any native american sites it will get real ugly...the feds regularly monitor forums like this one...and you are correct about the hundreds of others that have been in the mountains looking for the ldm...the difference between you and them is they aren't silly enough to come on a public forum and confess their crimes..

Sound advice falling on deaf ears. All one can do is to offer it, then watch things unfold.
Passion can blind a person.

Add in the idea of a curse, and who knows.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Sound advice falling on deaf ears. All one can do is to offer it, then watch things unfold.
Passion can blind a person.

Add in the idea of a curse, and who knows.

Thanks, Hal, your input has always been helpful as has others advice. I believe if a person does their very best to do things with good and honest intentions, including legal issues, that as Americans and have a stated intent and followed the mission, we will be alright. I have had valuable input from this forum. To be honest, one advantage to being so far away is that it has given us time and space between trips to access and analyze what we are doing. I have changed many of my origanal ideas on how to do this, shared journey. For instance one of the things I have changed my thinking on was to seek out, funding, I even wrote on our site that is was very expensive, and should anyone try to do it funding was a must. I have come 360 on that, at least in our case where there may be historical documentation. We have all talked over the years, and have agreed that we need to self-fund. We turned down an offer from a German DR to go with us and split our cost. We all talked and said, most likely this will be our last trip and since we have not accepted any money up to this point, let's just finish it off ourselves, so that is what we are doing. Five years ago I felt different. It just never felt right and we all had enough, disposable income to do it, so we have. Hopefully, people will find our story a good an honest read and maybe we get some of our vacation money back, so we can take our loved ones on vacations that have been skipped so we could be in the Supers. Which by the way they have all been very supportive, holding down the homefronts. My guess is that are very few Dutch Hunters, who have not had a support system. at the Rendazvu in 2015 I observed that about 40% of the folks in attendance were women. Anyways Thanks, Hal.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Speaking of a curse, Rodger says we are fine because we are there to document, share and get it protected before some bad people find it. I buy the way, we have something on film that is kind of startling, which will be in the book. I will just tell you if you are familiar with the photo called Spirit ( i think ?) taken in Utah, it is something like that except it is more definned and what you see fits the location. The Spirt photo is an artistic masterpiece and sold at auction for over a million dollars. Ours does not have that level of photographic beauty. But ours you can see the images and they represent what the place may represent. One of the guys looked away and said I do want to see it. They have had some strange stuff happen up there. That being said I have very good instincts, ever since I was little, and if there are entities up they know we are there to protect the place. Do they exist, I do not know
for sue, but if there are such things no place in North America is as likely to have them than the Supers if you have been up there any amount of time you know what I am talking about.

 

[azdave35]

Are you serious? "Crimes"? What "crimes"? In this case, I'd have to side with arcana-exploration's right to explore the wilderness area, document their discoveries and photograph them. I don't recall the need for a permit to enter a wilderness area. The Man's vast collection of laws do prohibit filing mining claims and disturbance and/or removal of historical objects, yes, but I don't believe the group's stated intentions include those violations. Is it a "crime" to write a book about the LDM's alleged location within the wilderness area? Good luck with prosecuting that one. Now, there may be red tape encountered with the "commercial filming" aspect of their search and/or drone usage. If so, I imagine things could be worked out later for "crimes" such as these if the alleged discoveries are valid.

If you believe that then you have obviously had no ring time with tonto forest service..

 

[Al D]

Speaking of a curse, Rodger says we are fine because we are there to document, share and get it protected before some bad people find it. I buy the way, we have something on film that is kind of startling, which will be in the book. I will just tell you if you are familiar with the photo called Spirit ( i think ?) taken in Utah, it is something like that except it is more definned and what you see fits the location. The Spirt photo is an artistic masterpiece and sold at auction for over a million dollars. Ours does not have that level of photographic beauty. But ours you can see the images and they represent what the place may represent. One of the guys looked away and said I do want to see it. They have had some strange stuff happen up there. That being said I have very good instincts, ever since I was little, and if there are entities up they know we are there to protect the place. Do they exist, I do not know
for sue, but if there are such things no place in North America is as likely to have them than the Supers if you have been up there any amount of time you know what I am talking about.

You bring up an interesting point, and one which I can relate to;
once while I was out surveying an ancient Indian habitation site, I got a very strong feeling of being watched and unwelcome, I could not shake off the feeling, so I located a water rock, it is a rock with a depression which can hold water, the Indians would get water from them in the morning, this was of course, around 800 AD when there was water in abundance in the Mojave, anyway, I digress, I poured some water from my canteen into the rock depression and also offered up some tobacco from one of my cigarettes to the spirits of the place.........then the Sun came out from behind a cloud and that feeling I had was gone, strange stuff happens in the Desert

 

[sdcfia]

If you believe that then you have obviously had no ring time with tonto forest service..

The public has no obligation to notify the government that they are entering a wilderness area. If rules, regulations or laws are violated, the perpetrators are responsible for their actions. Tonto National Forest even mentions lost mine legends on their info page. The only warning is to keep a group size less than 15 people and 15 animals. Follow the rules - no harm, no foul. Seems pretty clear. Videos, etc.? Get a permit or whatever else is required.

 

[Hal Croves]

Thanks, Hal, your input has always been helpful as has others advice. I believe if a person does their very best to do things with good and honest intentions, including legal issues, that as Americans and have a stated intent and followed the mission, we will be alright. I have had valuable input from this forum. To be honest, one advantage to being so far away is that it has given us time and space between trips to access and analyze what we are doing. I have changed many of my origanal ideas on how to do this, shared journey. For instance one of the things I have changed my thinking on was to seek out, funding, I even wrote on our site that is was very expensive, and should anyone try to do it funding was a must. I have come 360 on that, at least in our case where there may be historical documentation. We have all talked over the years, and have agreed that we need to self-fund. We turned down an offer from a German DR to go with us and split our cost. We all talked and said, most likely this will be our last trip and since we have not accepted any money up to this point, let's just finish it off ourselves, so that is what we are doing. Five years ago I felt different. It just never felt right and we all had enough, disposable income to do it, so we have. Hopefully, people will find our story a good an honest read and maybe we get some of our vacation money back, so we can take our loved ones on vacations that have been skipped so we could be in the Supers. Which by the way they have all been very supportive, holding down the homefronts. My guess is that are very few Dutch Hunters, who have not had a support system. at the Rendazvu in 2015 I observed that about 40% of the folks in attendance were women. Anyways Thanks, Hal.

I am somewhat familiar with publishing and unless you self-publish, it would take headline news for a book publisher to sign you. And if you found one who actually returned your call, once they became aware of how you obtained your photos, most would pass.

I would nix the book and any other commercial venture idea, take four of my friends hiking, climbing and generally exploring the range. If we were to accidentally stumble upon something news worthy, I would legally document it then run to a magazine editor or newspaper, slap photos, video and a great story on their desk, take no compensation then enjoy the attention. At that point a book deal would fall into your hands. Written in cooperation with the FS.

What’s the difference?
One is a legal, accidental discovery and the other a planned and potentially illegal research expedition and commercial venture.

I am not sure why you keep writing about funding.
What you do to finance your adventures is your business.

 

[arcana-exploration]

If you believe that then you have obviously had no ring time with tonto forest service..

I have spoken to them on three different occasions, for clarification. That is one reason we do not want a film crew. Right now we are 4 guys up hiking in the mountains and have nothing definitive, and we are wearing go-pros which almost all hikers do and we are taking photos with the Sony a6500 camera of wild-life each other and the beauty of the place to people can see it for themselves. If we determine we have found something, of note we will let Tonto know so they can protect it. And we have not used a drone since they banned them. As I see it the difference between us Tom Koulenbrun is if we found the LDM. Maybe he did and never told anyone? WE will share.

 

[arcana-exploration]

And to add Tom was a great historian and recorder of times lost, he was special and one of kind, we are not.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I am 72 and been a lot of places around the world, and in the time frame we have been up there maybe 45 days so far, several things have happened and you know, you are not trying to make it happen it just happens and you know immediately, I cannot explain it. The only other time was the night my father died and I was 130 miles from where he was.

 

[azdave35]

I have spoken to them on three different occasions, for clarification. That is one reason we do not want a film crew. Right now we are 4 guys up hiking in the mountains and have nothing definitive, and we are wearing go-pros which almost all hikers do and we are taking photos with the Sony a6500 camera of wild-life each other and the beauty of the place to people can see it for themselves. If we determine we have found something, of note we will let Tonto know so they can protect it. And we have not used a drone since they banned them. As I see it the difference between us Tom Koulenbrun is if we found the LDM. Maybe he did and never told anyone? WE will share.

the difference between you and kollenborn? ...first off..tom could spell..second..tom spent 60 years in the superstitions on horseback and hiking and knew every nook and cranny up there..i guarantee he knew where your site is and had been to it..he knew where every mine is up there...and he knew yours wasn't the ldm because he had already been to the ldm...the difference between you and tom is he left it alone and went about his business..you chose to start a website and get on the forums blabbing to everyone about it...everyone on here knows the approximate location of your site and thanks to you they know there is an arrestra there ...do yourself a favor and don't compare yourself to tom again...that's not the way to make friends around here..the only two reasons anyone gets online and brags about finding the ldm is either to bum for money (investors) or looking for their 15 minutes of fame..stop claiming to have the ldm unless you are ready to prove it...

 

[Hal Croves]

The public has no obligation to notify the government that they are entering a wilderness area. If rules, regulations or laws are violated, the perpetrators are responsible for their actions. Tonto National Forest even mentions lost mine legends on their info page. The only warning is to keep a group size less than 15 people and 15 animals. Follow the rules - no harm, no foul. Seems pretty clear. Videos, etc.? Get a permit or whatever else is required.

View attachment 1753512

Yes, you are correct. But I would notify the FS if I were able to return, only because of safety. They were looking for us one night when we reached the road late. That last mile ride was a blessing for one person that night. That place is tough.

 

[azdave35]

The public has no obligation to notify the government that they are entering a wilderness area. If rules, regulations or laws are violated, the perpetrators are responsible for their actions. Tonto National Forest even mentions lost mine legends on their info page. The only warning is to keep a group size less than 15 people and 15 animals. Follow the rules - no harm, no foul. Seems pretty clear. Videos, etc.? Get a permit or whatever else is required.

View attachment 1753512

this group is doing way more than just poking around out there..they have a website and have obviously been up there for years..they are no longer just tourist's...

 

[arcana-exploration]

the difference between you and kollenborn? ...first off..tom could spell..second..tom spent 60 years in the superstitions on horseback and hiking and knew every nook and cranny up there..i guarantee he knew where your site is and had been to it..he knew where every mine is up there...and he knew yours wasn't the ldm because he had already been to the ldm...the difference between you and tom is he left it alone and went about his business..you chose to start a website and get on the forums blabbing to everyone about it...everyone on here knows the approximate location of your site and thanks to you they know there is an arrestra there ...do yourself a favor and don't compare yourself to tom again...that's not the way to make friends around here..the only two reasons anyone gets online and brags about finding the ldm is either to bum for money (investors) or looking for their 15 minutes of fame..stop claiming to have the ldm unless you are ready to prove it...

I stated that clearly, that Tom was a special person and historian and I was not !!!! Get your facts correct. And yes I have a hard time with spelling I have a most severe form of dyslexia, I have to read backward. When I write for the site or book it takes me about 3 hours to do a page, even with spell check, I look at things and I do see what I am writing. Some mornings I get and write my name backwards but it looks normal to me. On this site do not spend hours correcting, your correct my spelling is bad, I also transpose words all the time like is should read our and I will write are. In 1952 in a one-room school, the teacher beat me with a switch in front of the class and made me go stand outside in the outhouse until the bus came, it was 2 hours and it was winter. I am well aware of my, spelling challenges. When I read I reread every line 3 times and my tested comprehension is 97%. I have a 3.89 at CSCC. but it took me forever to write papers. In my Political Science class, my professor said I was the only student in four years to ace the finale, you have no idea how much work this took. So you are correct my spelling on this site has left something to be desired. I either should the time to correct or just not post. As far as Tom Kolenbourne you need to read the added post where I clarified, my admiration for him and that he was a one of a kind, and I was not. If you missed that I understand the criticism if you read the main post and missed the follow-up post, but if you saw the second post and still miss-represented my stand on TK then you owe me an apology, and gramer check says you made 3 mistakes. and get off the investor thing we have none do want any money from investors and will be self-funded.

 

[azdave35]

I stated that clearly, that Tom was a special person and historian and I was not !!!! Get your facts correct. And yes I have a hard time with spelling I have a most severe form of dyslexia, I have to read backward. When I write for the site or book it takes me about 3 hours to do a page, even with spell check, I look at things and I do see what I am writing. Some mornings I get and write my name backwards but it looks normal to me. On this site do not spend hours correcting, your correct my spelling is bad, I also transpose words all the time like is should read our and I will write are. In 1952 in a one-room school, the teacher beat me with a switch in front of the class and made me go stand outside in the outhouse until the bus came, it was 2 hours and it was winter. I am well aware of my, spelling challenges. When I read I reread every line 3 times and my tested comprehension is 97%. I have a 3.89 at CSCC. but it took me forever to write papers. In my Political Science class, my professor said I was the only student in four years to ace the finale, you have no idea how much work this took. So you are correct my spelling on this site has left something to be desired. I either should the time to correct or just not post. As far as Tom Kolenbourne you need to read the added post where I clarified, my admiration for him and that he was a one of a kind, and I was not. If you missed that I understand the criticism if you read the main post and missed the follow-up post, but if you saw the second post and still miss-represented my stand on TK then you owe me an apology, and gramer check says you made 3 mistakes. and get off the investor thing we have none do want any money from investors and will be self-funded.

i didnt ask for your life story...just proof you have the ldm....every time someone asks for proof you start complaining ...and you have been hinting around for money since you got here..if i seem harsh its because i have seen dozens of guys just like you come on the scene....the last one that rolled through here caused alot of damage and ruined lives

 

[arcana-exploration]

i didnt ask for your life story...just proof you have the ldm....every time someone asks for proof you start complaining ...and you have been hinting around for money since you got here..if i seem harsh its because i have seen dozens of guys just like you come on the scene....the last one that rolled through here caused alot of damage and ruined lives

You did not respond to your misrepresentation of my respect and admiration, Tom Kolenburn, please clarify and admit when you are wrong, Also if you have followed along we have taken no money and have decided to totally self-funding with were what we are doing, I have stated that at length in the last several days, so again you miss represented us. And you say, you guys, you do not know us as I do not know you, so lump folks into a group, and you do not know them, all the while totally misrepresenting other facts. Please address The TK issue you owe me an apology.

 

[JohnWhite]

You have got to be weary of some people on this site arcana...There are a lot of treasure hunters who can't find a pile of cow squat if they tried and they go fishing for hints and clues from the the unfortunate...I broke down and sent one of said clan a few crumbs and I was labeled a liar...Oh well...I wish them luck in their search for what ever they are searching for...

IF you believe you have found something worthwhile...Keep it to your self...I have learned I don't have to prove my claims to anyone...Good luck with your quest...

Heck...I doubt anyone will ante up and pay my asking price...And I could really care less IF anyone ever does...I was born into poverty...And more than likely I will be poor when I breath my last...lol

Ed T