Continuum

[somehiker]

I don’t think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list

Good move, and one I am considering myself....for the first time.
Before I do however, I might initiate a new thread which might......depending on what documentation or other "proof" is available......serve as a better soapbox.
But right now, I have to head out and round up some groceries.....see ya

 

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[deducer]

Somehiker wrote


Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :





The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

Roy,

I don't understand your vitriol and where it is coming from. Like it or not, the Stone Maps are part of the Superstition Lore- and there are many other threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the LDM, but are part of the Superstitions, ranging from Lewis and Pranty, to Superstition toponymy, to the Coobs restaurant being bulldozed. Is your vitriol also directed to them as well? Shall those threads be deleted?

Also, do you remember that it was you, yourself that started a thread on the Stone Maps: "The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?" which has ended up being 212 pages long.

Do you think that this thread should also be deleted and removed from this forum?

 

[arcana-exploration]

I don’t think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list

YES.

 

[azdave35]

Roy,

I don't understand your vitriol and where it is coming from. Like it or not, the Stone Maps are part of the Superstition Lore- and there are many other threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the LDM, but are part of the Superstitions, ranging from Lewis and Pranty, to Superstition toponymy, to the Coobs restaurant being bulldozed. Is your vitriol also directed to them as well? Shall those threads be deleted?

Also, do you remember that it was you, yourself that started a thread on the Stone Maps: "The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?" which has ended up being 212 pages long.

Do you think that this thread should also be deleted and removed from this forum?

arthur....i don't think any threads should be deleted...it's a free and open forum so anyone can post..even alot of the so called "useless" threads might have some info that another member can use...in my opinion alot of the threads you deem useless keep this forum alive...its keeps people interested and coming back...even though they gripe about some of the squabbles that go on here they still read them...i think the stone maps are doorstops..but i still read the threads about them

 

[somehiker]

arthur....i don't think any threads should be deleted...it's a free and open forum so anyone can post..even alot of the so called "useless" threads might have some info that another member can use...in my opinion alot of the threads you deem useless keep this forum alive...its keeps people interested and coming back...even though they gripe about some of the squabbles that go on here they still read them...i think the stone maps are doorstops..but i still read the threads about them

I don't believe it is Arthur who has deemed any of the treads in the LDM forum as useless, although I would agree that far too many posts tend to be a waste of time or even disruptive in purpose IMO.

 

[sdcfia]

Our impressions of Esteban's abilities and actions are the same. Question is, how much of what he learned from the locals, as their journey progressed, did he share with the others ? There's no question that he subsequently led the DaNiza expedition northward into Arizona from Corazones, where he and his companions had previously turned southward on their path from Texas. To me, that suggests Esteban's information was received from the natives within that same locale, with directions which initially led them northward from there.
The green arrowheads may have also been peridot or even of a high quality green obsidian IMO. I'd have to go back to De Vaca's account to check, but as I recall, the mention of gold was in regard to evidence of gold,silver and other mineral deposits which they had taken note of, or heard about during that phase of their journey.
I was aware of the Estavanico Society website, and had it saved to my links file......too bad it's been gutted .
Good buy on the book though.

I'll give my opinion of the book after I read it.

When you think about it, with his charisma, mojo and black skin, Esteban may have impressed the locals enough to squeeze some good intel from them while serving as point man for de Niza in 1539 - especially since he was accompanied only by Mexican natives at the time. The North American natives' only experience with whites up to then was with slavers in the early days of the Northern Frontier. After Coronado severely poisoned the waters in 1540, the natives quickly learned to clam up when they were asked about gold.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

IMO the Stone Maps are a valid Lost Dutchman forum topic. When Clarence Mitchell wrote his book in 1965, he tied the stone maps, the Peralta mines in the Supes, and the Lost Dutchman Mine together. Referring to the Peralta/Waltz/Wieser story which was already in circulation, and how a Peralta gave the two Germans a mine, he says "And the mine that they worked is now called the Lost Dutchman."

Like Dave, I don't put much stock in their antiquity...I've made that comment before but I see no reason to continually argue the point, arguing with posters who DO think they're real. I think the stone maps belong on this forum and I have learned a lot reading the threads and posts about them.

 

[deducer]

arthur....i don't think any threads should be deleted...it's a free and open forum so anyone can post..even alot of the so called "useless" threads might have some info that another member can use...in my opinion alot of the threads you deem useless keep this forum alive...its keeps people interested and coming back...even though they gripe about some of the squabbles that go on here they still read them...i think the stone maps are doorstops..but i still read the threads about them

The only thing i have deemed completely useless is the act of feeding the trolls. Not only does that derail threads, but it increases the chance of a thread getting locked, killing off any good discussions. I have often spoken out about it. You all know who the trolls are, and expecting them to act in any other way, or to suddenly see reason or man up, is ludicrous.

As they say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

[somehiker]

I'll give my opinion of the book after I read it.

When you think about it, with his charisma, mojo and black skin, Esteban may have impressed the locals enough to squeeze some good intel from them while serving as point man for de Niza in 1539 - especially since he was accompanied only by Mexican natives at the time. The North American natives' only experience with whites up to then was with slavers in the early days of the Northern Frontier. After Coronado severely poisoned the waters in 1540, the natives quickly learned to clam up when they were asked about gold.

Oh, I've thought about all of that.....a lot
But I also believe that natives well to the north of Veracruz and Tenochtitlan had heard of the Spanish even before the city fell to the conquistadors. The extensive network of trade routes, and the traders that used them would have spread the word far and wide.....even as far as Hopi and Zuni territory. Along with news of the Spanish invasion, I'd be willing to bet they had also learned of the unquenchable thirst for gold that motivated them.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I don't understand your vitriol and where it is coming from. Like it or not, the Stone Maps are part of the Superstition Lore- and there are many other threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the LDM, but are part of the Superstitions, ranging from Lewis and Pranty, to Superstition toponymy, to the Coobs restaurant being bulldozed. Is your vitriol also directed to them as well? Shall those threads be deleted?

Also, do you remember that it was you, yourself that started a thread on the Stone Maps: "The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?" which has ended up being 212 pages long.

Do you think that this thread should also be deleted and removed from this forum?

Again, what vitriol? And no I don't propose to start deleting ANY threads. This one for instance has generated a lot of interesting information/research, yet really it doesn't relate to the LDM, which is what the forum is supposedly about. And still nothing to link the PSMs to Jacob Waltz other than beliefs. My pointing this out is not intended as some kind of personal attack, despite the hostile reactions it is generating. If I really wanted to be hostile it would not be so carefully hidden in innuendo or carefully couched insults. It is not a personal attack to simply state the obvious, that the Peralta Stones have nothing to do with the lost mine of Jacob Waltz - other than the beliefs of some folks.

To Wayne and Alan M - go ahead and put me on ignore, if that will make you feel better. It wont change anything however and I have no personal antipathy or enmity toward either of you. In fact I don't understand what justified the hostility from both of you. Good luck and good hunting to you both, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

 

[Hal Croves]

Oh, I've thought about all of that.....a lot
But I also believe that natives well to the north of Veracruz and Tenochtitlan had heard of the Spanish even before the city fell to the conquistadors. The extensive network of trade routes, and the traders that used them would have spread the word far and wide.....even as far as Hopi and Zuni territory. Along with news of the Spanish invasion, I'd be willing to bet they had also learned of the unquenchable thirst for gold that motivated them.

It doesn't belong here but South and North, East and West have since antiquity enjoyed commonality. First Peoples knew what was coming as much as those who came knew where they were going.

"The forms they hewed from living stone
Survive the waste of years alone
And mingled with their ashes show
What greatness perished long ago."

 

[somehiker]

IMO the Stone Maps are a valid Lost Dutchman forum topic. When Clarence Mitchell wrote his book in 1965, he tied the stone maps, the Peralta mines in the Supes, and the Lost Dutchman Mine together. Referring to the Peralta/Waltz/Wieser story which was already in circulation, and how a Peralta gave the two Germans a mine, he says "And the mine that they worked is now called the Lost Dutchman."

Like Dave, I don't put much stock in their antiquity...I've made that comment before but I see no reason to continually argue the point, arguing with posters who DO think they're real. I think the stone maps belong on this forum and I have learned a lot reading the threads and posts about them.

That they are Jim, and happen to line up next to the LDM as fairly equal in popularity among those who contribute to this and the other sites where the Lost Dutchman and the Superstition Mountains are a hot topic. As Deducer has already pointed out, the stone maps themselves are a part of the range's history, and until the day someone can prove they don't belong to that history, or do in FACT apply to some other part of the world, they will remain so. Even then, they would still be part of Superstitions lore....in the same way as any other chapter in the history of the mountains and of those who spent any time looking for lost mines or caches which they believe(d) might be related to the LDM is.

 

[sdcfia]

Oh, I've thought about all of that.....a lot
But I also believe that natives well to the north of Veracruz and Tenochtitlan had heard of the Spanish even before the city fell to the conquistadors. The extensive network of trade routes, and the traders that used them would have spread the word far and wide.....even as far as Hopi and Zuni territory. Along with news of the Spanish invasion, I'd be willing to bet they had also learned of the unquenchable thirst for gold that motivated them.

Agreed, and rumors likely alerted many remote Natives of possible coming threats. The extent and impact of all this is unknown, particularly since direct contact had not yet occurred for the Natives beyond the Northern Frontier. My point has strictly to do with the persuasiveness and reported power of character possessed by Esteban. Then, of course, there's Marcos, the ardent supporter of the Natives, who was well aware of Spanish intents and methods at the time. The "lying monk" who was "disgraced" by his own actions may have taken a bullet on behalf of the Natives and tried to bury any secrets that his scout discovered in order to try to protect them. All speculative of course, but the 1539 expedition, though "documented", still raises questions.

 

[Hal Croves]

I think that my father had met Henry E Miller, “Indian” Miller or “Chief Crazy Thunder” on Rt. 66 when he drove to California, before ending up in Korea.

Anyway, Miller wrote about this topic and his is an opinion.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

[Hal Croves]

I think that my father had met Henry E Miller, “Indian” Miller or “Chief Crazy Thunder” on Rt. 66 when he drove to California, before ending up in Korea.

Anyway, Miller wrote about this topic and his is an opinion.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Flipper’s challenge to Miller:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

[Hal Croves]

I think that my father had met Henry E Miller, “Indian” Miller or “Chief Crazy Thunder” on Rt. 66 when he drove to California, before ending up in Korea.

Anyway, Miller wrote about this topic and his is an opinion.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Miller’s life is remarkable to read about but his art is even more fascinating, to me.
Apache Warrior.

 

[sdcfia]

I think that my father had met Henry E Miller, “Indian” Miller or “Chief Crazy Thunder” on Rt. 66 when he drove to California, before ending up in Korea.

Anyway, Miller wrote about this topic and his is an opinion.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Marcos' reputation with the Spanish in Mexico obviously suffered by his puzzling reports that launched Coronado on his failed snipe hunt all the way into central Kansas looking for gold. The question remains: why did Marcos lie? Was he simply incompetent? Or did he have another agenda?

Was Marcos reprimanded by his Order after the Coronado debacle? Hardly, as he was appointed to the Franciscans' top position in the New World, a post he kept until his death in 1558. Antonio de Ciudad-Rodrigo, whom Marcos de Niza succeeded as the Franciscan Order’s ministro provincial in New Spain in 1541, summarizes Marcos de Niza: “he was held in high esteem by members of his Order, not only on account of his virtue and piety, but also for his acquirements in theology, cosmography and the art of navigation.”

 

[Hal Croves]

Marcos' reputation with the Spanish in Mexico obviously suffered by his puzzling reports that launched Coronado on his failed snipe hunt all the way into central Kansas looking for gold. The question remains: why did Marcos lie? Was he simply incompetent? Or did he have another agenda?

Was Marcos reprimanded by his Order after the Coronado debacle? Hardly, as he was appointed to the Franciscans' top position in the New World, a post he kept until his death in 1558. Antonio de Ciudad-Rodrigo, whom Marcos de Niza succeeded as the Franciscan Order’s ministro provincial in New Spain in 1541, summarizes Marcos de Niza: “he was held in high esteem by members of his Order, not only on account of his virtue and piety, but also for his acquirements in theology, cosmography and the art of navigation.”

I only have a superficial understanding of the topic but “another agenda” is certainly curious, however I have no idea what that agenda would be. I do know that history is vulnerable to interpretation. An example, Indian Miller’s drawing of the Apache Warrior that I posted shows a feather headdress. John Mix Stanleys Black Knife, an Apache Warrior, 1846, oil on canvas, Smithsonian American Art Museum depicts a similar feather headdress. But Historians doubt that Stanley actually painted Black Knife from life because “the Apache never wore feathers this way” So, Miller (an Apache) and Stanley who was with Col. Kearny in 1845 both got it wrong? Creative license? I honestly don’t know.

A side note, It was suggested (1917?) that Weavers Needle be renamed Cuchillo Negro, the Spanish name for Black Knife, also known as Baishan.




Proof? : )

 

[Oroblanco]

I only have a superficial understanding of the topic but “another agenda” is certainly curious, however I have no idea what that agenda would be. I do know that history is vulnerable to interpretation. An example, Indian Miller’s drawing of the Apache Warrior that I posted shows a feather headdress. John Mix Stanleys Black Knife, an Apache Warrior, 1846, oil on canvas, Smithsonian American Art Museum depicts a similar feather headdress. But Historians doubt that Stanley actually painted Black Knife from life because “the Apache never wore feathers this way” So, Miller (an Apache) and Stanley who was with Col. Kearny in 1845 both got it wrong? Creative license? I honestly don’t know.

A side note, It was suggested (1917?) that Weavers Needle be renamed Cuchillo Negro, the Spanish name for Black Knife, also known as Baishan.

View attachment 1744310


Proof? : )

View attachment 1744315

Plains Apache aka Kiowa-Apache dressed very much as all plains Indians, while the 'desert' branch did not. Black Knife might have been a Plains Apache.

 

[sdcfia]

Flipper’s challenge to Miller:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...iller&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

There have been many debates about this topic, not the least of which is the route followed by Esteban/de Niza in 1539 - and the 1540 Coronado Expedition too for that matter. The historians have tried to match narratives from the relacions and journals to maps in order to establish the routes taken, and there are about as many speculated routes as there are analysts. One convincing Coronado trail was based on 16th century artifacts recovered along the way: CHICHILTICALE.COM . As far as the de Niza 1539 route is concerned, I personally favor a route closer to Flipper's, traveling northerly before reaching the Gila River somewhere in eastern AZ and then proceeding upstream, possibly to a point once known as Todos Santos. From there? Who knows?