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  1. #121
    us
    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Good info Pot Belly - also if you take a look throughout the whole map from Princeton you'll find various other rivers with similar symbols...

    Attachment 1745408Attachment 1745409Attachment 1745410
    The O has a line through it unlike the others,, but you are correct.
    What about the R?
    It looks as if it were drawn over something and I don't see another R written this way.
    The reason I ask is the location.

    If it were something other than a smudge, that would be in the area of Tortilla Flat.
    It may be hopeful thinking, but The R is not drawn that way on somehikerís map.




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    Last edited by Hal Croves; Aug 22, 2019 at 10:37 PM.
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  2. #122
    us
    May 2010
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hal, the quill just got something stuck to it, or got a split.
    Last edited by coazon de oro; Aug 23, 2019 at 12:29 AM.

  3. #123
    pt
    Sep 2014
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    The facts behind the factoids
    Quote Originally Posted by somehiker View Post
    This type.....plus more at Gila Bend

    And there are others that look like this structure at Paquime (Casas Grandes) with a cross and four dots.
    That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

    Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

    That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...kman-on-stone/

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    "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
    Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski, 1998

  4. #124
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

    Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

    That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...kman-on-stone/

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Absolutely fascinating read.
    PotBelly Jim and Oroblanco like this.

  5. #125
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Hal, the quill just got something stuck to it, or got a split.
    Whatever that mark is under the R, it forms a squarish symbol.
    90 degree bends in drawing/writing don’t happen by chance.

    If you are correct, and you may be, what do the dots and cross represent on the attached?


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    Last edited by Hal Croves; Aug 23, 2019 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #126
    us
    Sep 2010
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    411
    Ref. P (phosphate)
    a.k.a 0
    Mine Name “Miller”
    Commodities - UNK (unknown)

    Unfortunately, this map doesn’t cover the entire range.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #127
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
    2,822
    2246 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    The O has a line through it unlike the others,, but you are correct.
    What about the R?
    It looks as if it were drawn over something and I don't see another R written this way.
    The reason I ask is the location.

    If it were something other than a smudge, that would be in the area of Tortilla Flat.
    It may be hopeful thinking, but The R is not drawn that way on somehiker’s map.




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    Hal - I don't know whether the R is just smudged or if indeed there is/was something written over there. I would agree that it's in the area of Tortilla Flat but with the map scale and inherent errors in drawing such a map it's hard to say where that really is.

    I did find other areas in that general section of the map that have similar "smudges" - not sure whether it was a printing problem or if things were actually written over. They all seem to be in that general area of the map though. Once you get further down into Mexico the printing looks much clearer.

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    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  8. #128
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by PotBelly Jim View Post
    Esconolea's description of incursion of Apache lands to James Tevis, and their trip to the area, attached. Excerpt from "Arizona in the '50's" (1850's) by James H. Tevis, 1954.

    Attachment 1745188
    Nice story written by Tevis. The Montezuma City or otherwise the Enchanted City from Foxfire book, described with so beautiful words like is an image from a fairy tale. I have to admit how the description of the Enchanted City spot from the Foxfire is more close to the reality than this from Tevis.
    Both landscapes like are described in these accounts don't exist, but are only author's fantasy, maybe to cover a deal of secrecy made with the persons who have shown them the place or have told them the story.
    IMHO and like the Pima myth says, the Montezuma City is underground, composed of many tunnels and natural caves. Few ruins are out of the " city ", which are looking more like lookouts.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  9. #129
    gr
    Oct 2012
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    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Another example of how the Montezuma City would look like inside, is described in Rosalle's letter at https://hubpages.com/education/The-Lost-Aztec-Treasure
    Last edited by markmar; Aug 23, 2019 at 02:42 PM.
    PotBelly Jim likes this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  10. #130
    gr
    Oct 2012
    3,251
    5060 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    And if you want to continue read on the same subject https://hubpages.com/travel/Treasure...tion-Mountains
    393stroker likes this.
    Marius

    If your true to your heart, you will never go wrong. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it, and in every treasure story and legend there is a grain of truth. It's up to your spirit and heart to know the difference. NP





  11. #131
    us
    Sep 2010
    2,557
    2584 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Hal - I don't know whether the R is just smudged or if indeed there is/was something written over there. I would agree that it's in the area of Tortilla Flat but with the map scale and inherent errors in drawing such a map it's hard to say where that really is.

    I did find other areas in that general section of the map that have similar "smudges" - not sure whether it was a printing problem or if things were actually written over. They all seem to be in that general area of the map though. Once you get further down into Mexico the printing looks much clearer.

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    I am going to ask the curator at the PRINCETON Library for an opinion.
    And look at your examples in ImageJ.

    Here is one that supports my argument that the Tortilla Flat area was at least accessed, long before it became a stop on the Apache trail. 1876


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Hal Croves; Aug 23, 2019 at 03:20 PM.
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  12. #132
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,408
    3015 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Croves View Post
    Whatever that mark is under the R, it forms a squarish symbol.
    90 degree bends in drawing/writing don’t happen by chance.

    If you are correct, and you may be, what do the dots and cross represent on the attached?


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Howdy Hal,

    Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?
    PotBelly Jim likes this.

  13. #133
    ca
    May 2007
    3,914
    5320 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by sdcfia View Post
    That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

    Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

    That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...kman-on-stone/

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Prehispanic protest symbol......."Don't taze me bro !"
    That's how the aliens got Travis Walton .
    Or maybe "score cards" for knife throwing contests .

    I agree on the ceremonial theory, since each of the "dot" platforms has a set of steps. I would think each platform would feature a costumed "actor" representing something, perhaps a diety type, who would play a part during a ceremony. Could have been related to the trader/merchant class and the N-S-E-W aspects of the extensive trade network which existed at the time when Paqime was at it's zenith as the hub in that wheel . And since trade was and is somewhat dependent on seasonal considerations, the celestial aspect may have been a factor in the layout of the structure as well.
    Last edited by somehiker; Aug 23, 2019 at 07:28 PM.
    sdcfia, Oroblanco and PotBelly Jim like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  14. #134
    ca
    May 2007
    3,914
    5320 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Howdy Hal,

    Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?
    George Miller's mines.....SE of Tortilla Mtn.
    Or perhaps the mines that Bilbrey had made claims on, and where he said he found the stone crosses.
    Jim Hatt did a good write up on the Miller Mines awhile back....with photos etc.
    Last edited by somehiker; Aug 23, 2019 at 07:30 PM.
    Oroblanco and PotBelly Jim like this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  15. #135
    us
    Sep 2010
    2,557
    2584 times
    Quote Originally Posted by coazon de oro View Post
    Howdy Hal,

    Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?
    Perhaps I should have written that with more thought. I provided the key so you would know what those symbols were, but what they represent, as in Mine and Location name was the point of my question.

    I haven’t been able to identify either and thought that you might.
    Oroblanco and PotBelly Jim like this.

 

 
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