The history of Tayopa

[Springfield]

Wow Don Jose. Incredible.

The more I study those photos, the more I feel out of shape at the very thought of trying to get over and through that country!
Roy

How about an autogyro to get you close enough for the footwork?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon Springfield my friend: I have already used a Bell 206 turbo helicopter @ $ 800 US per hr - sniff - for a certain bit of needed exploration. Unfortunately, an autogyro with jump take off characteristics, while good, can't quite hack it. Good thinking my friend.
I am including another picture for you Springfield. Find the hidden door.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BILL96]

RDT,
Excellent thread, I also have a few questions. In the years of operation any idea what the resident population of workers and "management" might have been at any one time?
Do you think they transported across country to the east coast or to the gulf to be shipped? Is there any "reliable" documentation as to any sort of actual production from any of the Tayopa complex during it's history
When the Jesuits were expelled was tayopa effected? do you think it was in operation at the time of the expulsion? do you think the Kings men approached from the east or from the gulf side? any insight as to their situation at the time this was happening? would they have been forewarned? It appears to be in such an increadible remote location, very difficult to get in and out of even with mules
Thanks,
Bill

 

[Springfield]

good afternoon Springfield my friend: I have already used a Bell 206 turbo helicopter @ $ 800 US per hr - sniff - for a certain bit of needed exploration. Unfortunately, an autogyro with jump take off characteristics, while good, can't quite hack it. Good thinking my friend.
I am including another picture for you Springfield. Find the hidden door.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I guess the sucker answer is 'dead center in the pic'. Question: are there faint remains of the old foot trails used back in the day? Probably not a lot of animal traces on the steep slopes, but humans seemingly needed trails. Did you use infrared during your research?

 

[Cubfan64]

I'm with you Springfield - dead center looks like the obvious answer, but I'll bet we're wrong

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Bill: You asked -->In the years of operation any idea what the resident population of workers and "management" might have been at any one time?

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Sorry Bill, no one can answer that with certainty, but I assume that about 1 - 200 hundred.
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You asked --> Do you think they transported across country to the east coast or to the gulf to be shipped?
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Across northern Mexico to just below Matamorros.
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You asked --> Is there any "reliable" documentation as to any sort of actual production from any of the Tayopa complex during it's history
***********
There undoubtedly is, but if so, it is hidden in the Vatican files which cannot be touched, the closed files. Ordinary mining files of the Gov't? no, none.
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You asked --> When the Jesuits were expelled was tayopa effected? do you think it was in operation at the time of the expulsion?
***************
Tayopa itself was hidden and lost in the early 1600's, the area was reopened and worked, but not Tayopa itself. I presume that they continued working the zone until slightly before the expulsion. when they closed up the newer workings and sent all of the production of the surrounding mines to Tayopa to be hidden in the two main deposits.
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You asked -->do you think the Kings men approached from the east or from the gulf side?
*********************

They did not approach Tayopa, they officially didn't know of it.
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You asked-->would they have been forewarned?
***************

Yes , they had deep pockets and knew what the King was doing as soon as he signed any papers, so they MUST have been forwarned, but they did not warn the regular mission priests who were sacrificed to keep this knowledge secret. They had plenty of time to close up the Tayopa complex workings and hide much of the metal being sent to the East for transhipment to Rome..
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you stated -->It appears to be in such an incredible remote location, very difficult to get in and out of even with mules
****************
It was , but then most top mining centers are located in such broken up country. that was the reason of for their mineralization and existence.
Tayopa happens to be extremely broken up.

You must understand that most of this data is not backed by solid 'written proof' , if that had existed, Tayopa would never have been lost, but is the result of a composite reconstruction of slender facts, but never the less fairly accurate, especially since I found Tayopa with it, and can prove this and the other, if necessary sufficiently for a court of law.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield and cub both asked -->in the center? Gentlemen please. he he he he he Frankly I don't know yet. we were looking for it when my friend had the heart attack and cancelled the trip. However I will say that it is crudely marked on the map as a ladder.

Relax Oro, I am not giving out trade secrets. One could spend years there without success without my intimate data. This picture is an extension of the one showing the head of Tayopa canyon and the saw mill. A fairly long distance.

Trails exist everywhere, but which were used 400 years ago? Lots of game trails.

Infra red is one of our still unused tools. We are leaning towards a long distance IR scanner rather than film because of the heat, humidity and time to get it to a processor for best results..


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Bill wrote

Is there any "reliable" documentation as to any sort of actual production from any of the Tayopa complex during it's history
***********

...and el Tropical Tramp replied;

There undoubtedly is, but if so, it is hidden in the Vatican files which cannot be touched, the closed files. Ordinary mining files of the Gov't? no, none.

This surreptitious mining and smuggling did not completely escape notice of the Spanish; the explorer Vizcaino reported in his diary, that he accidently encountered a mule pack train on the road to Culiacan in 1603. There are no mines I could find record of that this mule train would be going to in that part of Mexico, except for "legendary" Tayopa!
Roy

 

[Furness]

Hello Jose,

i agree with cuby those are fantastic photo's,

re the photo of the door,
i assume you mean the one in the centre of the photo ?, if so what is that at the top left of the photo, is that another horizontal door? or is it my eyes that are going funny ?

regards

furness

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Ladies and Gentlemen: That was a bit of unknown information for me Oro de La Tayopa, excellent , any more that can be posted publically?

Furness, Springfield, and Cuber: As I mentioned, I certainly don't know. The Indian gal that saw it in the 40's said that it was 1/2 buried by talus, My X friend claimed to have seen it in the late 90's. The Indian gal had no interest in it except for curiosity. My friend wanted it for the $$, but when he returned with the tools to open it, he wasn't sure where he had seen it, it was almost completely buried. As a result he never found it. He was renown for his ability to hunt and track ??

He claimed that the lock was visible, and that He had tried to break it with a rock. Frankly, I doubt this, since the door was pretty well hidden in the 40's, but then ---- ? Also is it normal to go to the trouble to break a lock until after you had cleared the area of the door so that you could open it?

I had flatly forbidden him to go down into the canyon until we had secured a mule for him to ride, he had had a heart attack the year before, but unknown to me, he went anyway ? I can only assume that he hadn't actually seen it, but knew of the Indian Gal's story and was afraid that we might find it without him FAITH

In any event, as Oro de Tayopa well knows, there are several basic clues of prospecting which narrows the search down considerably.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning my frIends: It has been said that the church at Tayopa was a huge one, typically a
cathederal. As one of our famous authors said, "there were two huge oaks growing inside of it".

This is modern version of the 'approved design' used then, and now. This was adequate for a village of some hundreds of people. Since there were probably only a few hundred workers at Tayopa, it served quite well for the faithful ones.

So this fits precisely to the description in Dobie's map. It is orientated looking towards the north, while Dobie's is to the south. Other than this, they are identical, even to the bell tower location and the Cato, the back, side adjoining room..

Next, the location of the Church.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BILL96]

Nice church, but back to the door for a moment. I have read many stories of lost mines with "iron" doors. The problem I have always had with all of them is the sheer mechanics of creating an iron door. I have done foundry work for the last 20 years and the process of creating iron or bronze is not simple. To manufacture a "door" to me is a mind boggling idea especially in some of the locations where these mine were lost. Even if cast in pieces and hauled to the location the weight would be tremendous and a nightmare to assemble. Steel of any thickness is a whole nuther problem, and then there is the problem of "Rust"!
Just some thoughts
Bill

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BILL: I agree with you 100%. but first one must accept that they were casting bells in that period, so the technology was known and used..

Second, I honestly don't think that that they were 'iron' doors, since iron was extremely scarce on the frontier in those days and was reserved for weapons and tools. I have always believed that they were an alloy, perhaps old failed bell castings, recast.

Your rust point is well taken, does cast iron rust easily?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A suggestion, go to http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,264270.200.html

Scroll down to # 237 read a few posts , and possibly 294 to see the bells.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill: while you are looking at the two bells in front of the grave yard in post 294, remember they are almost 4 ft in dia. at the rim. that is one heavy bell. A door prob wouldn't weigh as much.

You can't believe the materiel they moved by animal and man power in those days. As the old saying goes, if there is a will, there is a way'.

In Chinapas, there are two small gauge steam engines. They were built in England with no part weighing more than 200 lbs. since it was necessary to pack everything by animal for over 200 miles. Every part was stamped with combinations of letters and numbers, it was a simple task to just match the combinations up in the proper sequence.

Even the heavy drivers were in parts. 1294883/djjenskl <> 1294883/djjenskl, bolts & nuts and direction of insertation were identified also.

They moved up to 2000 + ft of 1 - 2 " hoisting cables by mules, this runs approx. 6.4lbs per foot. I'll let you figure out how they did it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BILL96]

I did go back and looked at the bells, the art of casting bells does go back quite a bit and I have cast smaller ones in bronze, it takes practrice to get a good one. I agree that trying to cast "iron" may have been a little much for that time and place and yes it will certaily rust, ever leave a dutch oven or cast iron skillet out in rain . Its just of the location of some of these "lost mines" would seem to make creating a metal door of some sort a very labor intensive task but I suppose if someone really wanted one, one could have been manufactured, loaded on those mules and moved across the mountains.
Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote

That was a bit of unknown information for me Oro de La Tayopa, excellent , any more that can be posted publically?

I will look over what I have, but doubt there is anything you don't already have.

On the iron door - is this not a possible case of a iron-BOUND door being garbled into a solid iron door? Little details like that do happen and not just in treasure hunting. I have seen instances of an iron bound chest become described as an iron chest for example.

On the church - Dobie's map shows a rather square church on the map rather than the common "cross" type of layout; can you tell from what is left visible, whether the actual Tayopa church was square or shaped like a cross? Thank you in advance;
Roy aka "Oro de la Tayopa" at least in my dreams!

 

[Oroblanco]

A big Dakota HOWDY to our amigo Ed! <good to see you posting again!>

Back to that door, who says it is a CAST iron door, and not one made from bars of plate iron, of the type commonly used in all frontier areas, in other words a WROUGHT iron door. This would make more sense than a cast iron door.

BTW that is pretty interesting Ed - so much iron! I was just reading Pfefferkorn (Jesuit) who mentioned how the Spaniards seemed to ignore all other metals besides gold and silver, as he put it, "as if an iron or copper mine can not make you rich". Notice any sign of a Jesuit presence? Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sorry the power went off just as I was composing, I hadn't send this yet. Storm.
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Good evening my friends: Oro , you are curious about the church, the one that I have shown is identical to the one on Dobie's map. A Cato is the side room next to the altar. Here are two pictures of the Church in the same configuration as the map, also shown, all looking south.

Notice particularly, the tiered configuration for the bell over the front door. The same.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Now Oro you probably wish to see the site of that church, soooo. This site was picked with a definite purpose, it was a sort of last ditch stronghold. There is only one basic access, causeway to the right. This type of defense was standard in the Rhine river valley at that period. A few Spanish soldiers could easily control the access. We will discuss this later.

Note that it fits perfectly with Dobie's map, even to orientation.

They scrapped off a flat area just large enough for the Church with the main door to the south.


The saw mill lies to the right and up.

The main headquarters lies to the North west, perhaps a few miles in a beautiful little Pine covered valley, with a clear running stream.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias compadre - what a view! This next question may seem off-topic, but do you know if there is any water source in the mission site? As in a spring, brook, or a well? I wonder what they did for their water supply? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco