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Thread: Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

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  1. #7381
    us
    Amature Historian and World Traveler.

    Feb 2013
    Soverign America
    557
    491 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    "The earliest record is a waybill left by Jose Joaquin Garcia, penned in 1814, several decades before he sketched his now famous map. That document refers to work which was performed at mines on Hoyt Peak as far back as 1782. It was discovered in the Spanish Archives at Mexico City through the efforts of Russell R. Rich, Professor of Early History, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. It is quite likely that Professor Rich also discovered the Garcia Map of 1821-1826. Both the map and the document appeared at about the same time. Another document recently uncovered in the Archives at Seville states that the Garcia Mine was registered in 1722, and was worked until 1749, when it was abandoned due to Indian troubles, and wasn't reopened until 1782. The mine was owned by the Garcia family for nearly a century. The waybill discovered by Professor Rich has been authenticated by document experts who have examined it in great detail; their opinions stating that the language of that document is consistent with the period in which it was written, and that several now archaic words and phrases in it would be unknown to anyone not living at that time.



    Documents written by the well educated class, such as the clergy, were actually written in a script known as "procesal," in which it isn't unusual to find words of Arabic, Greek and Latin origin. The procesal style of writing is a continuous flowing script of rounded Arabic-like letters and abbreviations, having little or no punc tuation to indicate where sentences or phrases end. Bundles of documents called "legajos" may each con tain thousands of pages, which for the most part do not relate to each other. A researcher must examine each legajo one page at a time, each one only part of an esti mated fifty-million documents in the Spanish Archives at Seville. A document similar to the Garcia waybill reveals the many different forms which letters in procesal might take. For example: In that ancient script, the letter "A" is shown in fourteen different styles, "E" in twenty-one styles, "P" in sixteen and even the little used letter "Z" in thirteen styles! It would be virtually impos sible for someone today to forge such a document."

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are no ancient secrets to decoding the past, there is only great research and applied logic.


  2. #7382
    ec
    May 2013
    Ecuador, America
    1,606
    2337 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Seńor Embrym,

  3. #7383
    us
    Amature Historian and World Traveler.

    Feb 2013
    Soverign America
    557
    491 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by doc-d View Post
    Seńor Embrym,
    Hey there Doc-d,

    Here's something from tnet: Lost Josephine de Martinique

    Ill be back late Sunday night.


    There are no ancient secrets to decoding the past, there is only great research and applied logic.


  4. #7384

    Mar 2015
    482
    2737 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by embrym View Post
    Hey there Doc-d,

    Here's something from tnet: Lost Josephine de Martinique

    Ill be back late Sunday night.


    Kanacki

  5. #7385

    Mar 2015
    482
    2737 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hello All

    interesting yarn?

    Several questions who is Jose Joaquin Garcia?

    Is that his full name?

    Spanish names traditionally have christian middle name and mother and fathers name tack on. Is Jose Joaquin Garcia full name " José Joaquín García de Noriega"?

    José Joaquín García de Noriega was born March 20, 1735 in Santa Cruz de la Cañada, Rio Arriba, Provincia de Nuevo México, Reino de Nueva España (new Mexico New Spain ) His date of death unknown?

    He was the Son of Capitán Juan Esteban García de Noriega and Luisa Gómez del Castillo

    Husband of María de la Concepción García de la Mora

    Father of José Candelario García de Noriega; Mateo García de Noriega; María de la Ascensión García de Noriega; María Josefa García; María Gertrudis García de Noriega and 6 others

    Brother of José Anselmo García de Noriega; Juan Tomás García de Noriega; Domingo García de Noriega; Gregorio de Jesús García de Noriega; José Antonio Albino García de Noriega and 2 others.

    It appear the family had a long connection with Santa Cruz de la Cañada,

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is not beyond the realms of impossibility. That the family might of had mining interests in the Utas mines, Later to be known as Josephine.

    The settlement of Santa Cruz de la Canada was founded in 1695, becoming the second villa established by the Spanish in New Mexico (Santa Fe was the first). The present church was constructed beginning in 1733 and for many years was the largest and most impressive church in New Mexico.

    Many consider it to be one of the most beautiful and culturally significant churches in the United States. Inside are examples of Spanish colonial art created by famous santeros including Jose Raphael Aragon, the "Laguna Santero", and the "Truchas Master". It also contains one of the earliest Spanish Colonial artworks, the bulto of "Santo Entierro" created by Fray Andres Garcia circa 1767. Also adorning the church are several beautiful paintings and bultos created in Mexico and brought to Santa Cruz de la Canada in the early to mid 19th century.

    is there a family connection between Fray Andres Garcia and José Joaquín García de Noriega ? Fray Andres Garcia could of actually been the author of the waybill? Being a priest he would of been more familiar with procesal script than José Joaquín García de Noriega who most likely passed on the details of the utas mine most likely first discovered by his father?

    The waybill posted is modern copy of "procesal" script. perhaps translated to modem text professor Russel R Rich.here is what procesal writing looks like below.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Waybill written below is in Italica. Suggests this was written copy of an older "procesal" script

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looking deeper in professor I can confirm he was a professor at Birmingham Young university. His specialty was professor of "Church history"

    But frustrating of all we have no clear reference where professor Rich actually found document. WE have 2 conflicting versions. One in Mexico city and the other in Seville?

    Anyone serious looking into researching this I suggest hunting down papers belong to professor Russel R Rich.

    Finding original source of this document is not impossible but needs time and bit of clever detective work.

    Alas its time for me tomorrow to fly out.

    Thank you Embrym for an interesting post.

    coffee

    Kanacki
    Last edited by KANACKI; Apr 13, 2019 at 08:24 PM.

  6. #7386

    Mar 2015
    482
    2737 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hello All

    Here is a link to Professor Russell R Rich (1912-1988)papers from his time at Bingham young University.(1951-1984)

    https://findingaid.lib.byu.edu/viewItem/UA%20611

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is more comprehensive look into his life.

    Biographical notes:
    Russell Rogers Rich was born in 1912 and passed away in 1988. He served as a BYU faculty member in the College of Relgion from 1953-1976. Prior to that he was a seminary teacher and institute director for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

    From the description of Russell R. Rich collection, 1954-1984. (Unknown). WorldCat record id: 367527770

    Russell R. Rich (1912-1988) was a Mormon religious instructor in Utah.

    Russell Rogers Rich was born January 5, 1912 to Jesse Pomeroy and Louise Rogers Rich in Chicago, Illinois. His father was a law student at the University of Chicago at the time of his birth. He attended school in Preston, Idaho and Logan, Utah, graduating from Logan High School in 1929. While in high school, he participated in both track and football. He attended one year at Utah State Agricultural College in Logan, Utah, before serving as an Mormon missionary in Germany and Austria from 1930-1933. He graduated from Utah State in 1936, serving as student body president his senior year.

    Following graduation, Rich accepted a position in the LDS Church Education System. He taught seminary in Driggs, Idaho and Logan, Utah. In 1946 he accepted the position of Director of the Institute of Religion at Arizona State University in Tempe. He was awarded a master's degree in Church History from Brigham Young University in 1949 and the following year was appointed Institute Director at the University of Wyoming.

    In 1953 he was transferred to Brigham Young University where he taught for twenty-four years for the College of Religion. From 1955 to 1960 he served as chairman of the Church History Department. He retired from active teaching in 1977. In 1955 he was awarded a Doctor of Education degree from the University of Wyoming.

    Among the many classes Rich taught at BYU were the survey classes in LDS Church History (Religion 341, 342, 343) for which he prepared a detailed study guide to B.H. Robert's Comprehensive History of the Church. He also authored the current textbook for Religion 342, (History of the Church, 1846 to 1900) Ensign to the Nations. Rich taught several graduate classes in Mormon history, the student papers from these classes are an important part of this collection.

    Rich is best known for his study of Mormon schismatic movements. He is an expert on various Mormon splinter groups, spending many of his summers visiting with these various groups and corresponding frequently with these various groups and corresponding frequently with the various churches' leaders and members. He not only collected their literature on his visits, but he also frequently subscribed to their publications. During the late 1950s and early 1960s he delivered several Leadership Week lectures on his research of these churches which were later published.

    Rich married Margeret Cardon on June, 1936, in the Salt Lake City Temple and they are the parents of seven children. The Riches served as tour guides in the Independence, Missouri, Visitor's Center of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1981 to 1983.

    Hmmm

    Coffee?

    Sorry Old habits die hard. I am retired.....

    Anyway I hope this is one some help for any one wanting to follow up the story and shake a few leads loose. It might pay to dig for paper from his time at being Director of the Institute of Religion at Arizona State University in Tempe in 1946. Where he may of encountered documents from Latin american church studies?

    Thank you for taking the time to read my yarns but alas time to go for now.

    Until then please keep Don Jose on his toes for me. We will get a book out of him yet? hint hint. :-)

    Kanacki
    Last edited by KANACKI; Apr 14, 2019 at 07:43 AM.
    markmar, embrym, doc-d and 5 others like this.

  7. #7387
    us
    Amature Historian and World Traveler.

    Feb 2013
    Soverign America
    557
    491 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting


    There are no ancient secrets to decoding the past, there is only great research and applied logic.


  8. #7388
    us
    Amature Historian and World Traveler.

    Feb 2013
    Soverign America
    557
    491 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hello All,

    I always welcome the research of any of "the legendary three amigos" and/or Amy.

    Kanacki, the name on the three documents I have seen is: Capatin Jose Joaquin Garcia Icalbaleeta. He also authorized a book titled “The Day of the Work” from 1813-1814. He had to flee in 1814 because of the native Utes. Out of his 42 man party, only 8 made it back to Mexico. He is the half brother of Don Diego Garcia and their father was Don Pedro Garica.

    In my opinion and without a doubt, this mine is the most famous and authenticated Spanish Mine. Numerous references can be found in Catholic Records, Spanish Records, and Royal records of Gold shipped back to Spain on the “Plate Fleets”, as well as other older journals and work books.

    My research has narrowed it down to one of two locations, either the Henry Mountains in Utah or Hoyts Peak in Utah.

    Just imagine, the Josephina de la Martinique Waybill states they had to bury 240 Carga's of Gold and 680 Carga's of Silver. For those of you who dont know one Carga is 250lbs of Gold. So roughly 65,000lbs of documented Gold is buried and no documentation shows it was recovered. Nor the 170,000lbs of Silver.

    And, at Henry Mountains the story is 250 Spanish soldier were killed and buried in the mine shaff with the last shipment of Gold that was not accounted for...The Spanish Galleons came once a month for shipment.

    There are many symbols on both mountains. Maltese Cross on each and hearts. Here is a teaser video of Hoyts Peak symbols:





    Coffee
    Last edited by embrym; Apr 14, 2019 at 07:51 PM.


    There are no ancient secrets to decoding the past, there is only great research and applied logic.


  9. #7389
    us
    Amature Historian and World Traveler.

    Feb 2013
    Soverign America
    557
    491 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Here is a video of the Henry Mountains. Audio with still shot photos. What do you think of the dam photo around the 14.30 mark?


    markmar, doc-d, KANACKI and 4 others like this.


    There are no ancient secrets to decoding the past, there is only great research and applied logic.


  10. #7390

    Mar 2015
    482
    2737 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hello Embrym

    Quite a story I have to post quickly as my flight await departure.here is newspaper article of find near Las vegas in 1899? A box with documents. It many be totally unrelated. But maybe worth seeing if this party was actually connected to the mining activities in Utah in which the men was fleeing back southwest to the nearest Mexican port?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Kanacki.

  11. #7391
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
    1,448
    6323 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Kanaci, they haveen't answeered me yet, ,can you send me the address or name again ? No email sent according to my records, must have inadvertantly cancelled it.

  12. #7392
    us
    Mar 2011
    N/W ARKANSAS
    FISHER
    2,331
    8036 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Kanaci, they haveen't answeered me yet, ,can you send me the address or name again ? No email sent according to my records, must have inadvertantly cancelled it.
    He has to land sometime?!?
    I hope that he sees it.

    #/;0{>~
    ....JESUS IS LORD.
    ...................THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD.
    .................................. HEAVEN IS MY REAL HOME.


    THAT'S JUST THE WAY I WAS RAISED TO SEE THE WORLD.

    REALLY, I'M NOT SHOUTING. I HAVE A VISUAL PERCEPTION PROBLEM, AND TYPING IN ALL CAPS HELPS ME TO PROOF READ WHAT I TYPE. IF I EVER NEED TO DRAW ATTENTION TO ANYTHING I'LL MAKE IT BOLD SO IT STANDS OUT. I MEAN NO HARM. #/;0)~

  13. #7393

    Mar 2015
    482
    2737 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Kanaci, they haveen't answeered me yet, ,can you send me the address or name again ? No email sent according to my records, must have inadvertantly cancelled it.
    Hello Amigo PM sent,

    Hasta que nos encontremos de nuevo.

    Kanacki

  14. #7394
    us
    Mar 2011
    N/W ARKANSAS
    FISHER
    2,331
    8036 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I know that I will hate myself within the next 24 hours for asking this.

    I took my night meds almost three hours ago and I’m still up and spent several hours reading more of the translated, Spanish Mining Laws..

    I’m down to the 1849 laws, and for the first time, that I have noticed, they mention the Castilian vara, as opposed to Burgos vara!!?!!

    Is there a different length between them, or is it just Castillo wanted to use his name in the later mining laws??

    Changing the length of the vara would screw up the old records

    My brain has done about all the thinking that it’s going to do for tonight....,

    So... a little help??!??

    BTW I just read through page 600.

    Lots of nit-picking and examples.

    #/80{>~
    ....JESUS IS LORD.
    ...................THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD.
    .................................. HEAVEN IS MY REAL HOME.


    THAT'S JUST THE WAY I WAS RAISED TO SEE THE WORLD.

    REALLY, I'M NOT SHOUTING. I HAVE A VISUAL PERCEPTION PROBLEM, AND TYPING IN ALL CAPS HELPS ME TO PROOF READ WHAT I TYPE. IF I EVER NEED TO DRAW ATTENTION TO ANYTHING I'LL MAKE IT BOLD SO IT STANDS OUT. I MEAN NO HARM. #/;0)~

  15. #7395
    us
    May 2010
    texas
    1,344
    2755 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by PROSPECTORMIKEL View Post
    I know that I will hate myself within the next 24 hours for asking this.

    I took my night meds almost three hours ago and I’m still up and spent several hours reading more of the translated, Spanish Mining Laws..

    I’m down to the 1849 laws, and for the first time, that I have noticed, they mention the Castilian vara, as opposed to Burgos vara!!?!!

    Is there a different length between them, or is it just Castillo wanted to use his name in the later mining laws??

    Changing the length of the vara would screw up the old records

    My brain has done about all the thinking that it’s going to do for tonight....,

    So... a little help??!??

    BTW I just read through page 600.

    Lots of nit-picking and examples.

    #/80{>~
    Howdy Mikel,

    I have just finished looking into the legua measurement which kept changing over the centuries, and they did mention the vara Castellana de Burgos, so it is one and the same. Burgos is the capital of the kingdom of Castile. One of my ancestors is in a tomb in the cathedral of Burgos. Pedro de Velasco second count of Haro, and sixth constable of Castile. Embrym's posts got me looking into the Josephine, and to me it seems to be neither by Hoyt Peak, or the Henry Mountains.

    Homar
    Last edited by coazon de oro; Apr 16, 2019 at 03:26 AM.

 

 

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