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  1. #31
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Gollum wrote
    Hey Buddy,

    Your post said nothing about reading anything. You only quoted Joe's Post.

    I don't see a connection between Vainopa and the Supers, but the book will not shed any light on it because they didn't travel further North than Tucson. That's why the rich Bradshaws aren't mentioned. They were well into being worked in the 1860s. I suppose that if they had passed through the Supers, they would have mentioned it.

    Best-Mike
    My post only said that this SUGGESTS how un-important the Superstitions were, in 1869. From that, you have interpreted more than was there; such as assuming that I had not read the book (I have not yet read the whole book, but had read the AZ chapter, hence the comment) and now you assume the reason(s) why the Bradshaws were not mentioned, and assume that if Box had traveled through them, that he would include them. We don't know the reason why Box chose not to mention several regions that were in the NEW portion of Arizona (after the Gadsden purchase) which is the area he was mainly describing; however the Superstitions, judging from the historical record, were just not that important - not until after the death of Jacob Waltz, circa October 25, 1891. The Superstitions, aka Salt River mountains, aka Montana el Espuma, hardly rated even a paragraph in any of the three govt publications on the gold deposits of Arizona. The big interest in the Superstitions is relatively modern.

    As fascinating as the Superstitions are, they are only a small part of the whole - the American Southwest and Northern Mexico has a vast and complex history and geology. Considering how few clues we do have as to the location of Vainopa, one key bit of info allows us to safely rule OUT the Superstitions, that it is three days travel from Tayopa.
    Oroblanco
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  2. #32
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Good morning my friends: Oro, you say 3 days from Tayopa, hmm in that country it means nothing unless you know which trail is followed. Many times you can have a hard days travel and only end up perhaps 500 meters horizontally from where you started. Any rumors of whether it is north or south, critical.

    Example, from Yecora in the rainy season road, it is two days. In the dry season you can leave Yecora and return in one HARD day. Some where on this lower trail it passes near a cave that has many many Gold bars, covered with moss. The Indian that found it only cut off a few pieces of Gold, sold them to the operating mine in the area, then disappeared. To date he hasn't reappeared.
    From the Vainopa mine?

    South of Tayopa, perhaps two days or less, is another mine. called the mine of the siete muras, "the mine of the seven walls". It was apparently discovered in the 1700's.(?) It is on the crest, in a huge chamber / cave open to the North East.

    The original Spanish miners entered the open chamber by rope. Inside they found a vein of gold which was very rich, so they built several houses inside of the chamber and commenced to work it.. Since it was too difficult to enter and leave, plus bring in supplies, they opened a tunnel to the outside. When they were forced to leave the mine, they closed up the tunnel with 7 walls and hid it.

    A Guayajiro Indian found a closed tunnel. He opened it and entered. Shortly he found another wall which he opened also, then another wall. By this time he was thoroughly spooked and abandoned it. Later he told my friend, now deceased last year, about it and agreed to show us the tunnel but refused to ever enter it again, long story here.

    So, is this the lost tunnel to the fantastic Gold deposit and the houses which are still basically intact being under the overhang, according to another Indian that saw them from across the Barranca ??

    Is this the lost Vainopa mine?

    Further down the rio Mayo, on the western side on a curve is a wooden door with a completely rusted padlock of Spanish origin. The river had changed course and now was flowing against the door. My contact found it and saw that the entry was eroded and open below the door, so he and a friend dove under the door in the water and found a tunnel extending into the interior. Since they had no light, they didn't go any further. Is this the lost Vainopa mine?

    Continuing down the barranca de Tayopa, but for only one day, are the ruins of a small Capilla. My friend who was raised in the Tayopa area, said that his father, who was a prospector, was working the area living with the local Guayajiros, finally ran out of supplies and decided to return to Obregon to work for more.

    When he told his local Indian friends this, the jefe (chief) was sad and told him to follow him. He led him inside of the Mission and lifted a floor block exposing a series of steps . The Indian told him to go down and take all that he could carry, but that only this time would he be allowed to remove anything.

    He did and found sacks of rich gold ore. He then returned to Obregon where he lived well for a year or so, then he decided to return for more with a friend of his.. When they reached the Mission he greeted the Chief and said that he needed more of the "rocks". The chief flatly told him, "NO", and reminded him of the original agreement. Rather than fight with his friends, they left and returned to Oregon where he later died. Is THIS from the lost Vainopa mine

    I have several more stories from the Tayopa zone, that may be the lost Vainopa mine, but will post them on another day.

    Have fun Oro.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #33
    Charter Member
    om
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Gollum wrote
    Hey Buddy,

    Your post said nothing about reading anything. You only quoted Joe's Post.

    I don't see a connection between Vainopa and the Supers, but the book will not shed any light on it because they didn't travel further North than Tucson. That's why the rich Bradshaws aren't mentioned. They were well into being worked in the 1860s. I suppose that if they had passed through the Supers, they would have mentioned it.

    Best-Mike
    My post only said that this SUGGESTS how un-important the Superstitions were, in 1869. From that, you have interpreted more than was there; such as assuming that I had not read the book (I have not yet read the whole book, but had read the AZ chapter, hence the comment) and now you assume the reason(s) why the Bradshaws were not mentioned, and assume that if Box had traveled through them, that he would include them. We don't know the reason why Box chose not to mention several regions that were in the NEW portion of Arizona (after the Gadsden purchase) which is the area he was mainly describing; however the Superstitions, judging from the historical record, were just not that important - not until after the death of Jacob Waltz, circa October 25, 1891. The Superstitions, aka Salt River mountains, aka Montana el Espuma, hardly rated even a paragraph in any of the three govt publications on the gold deposits of Arizona. The big interest in the Superstitions is relatively modern.

    As fascinating as the Superstitions are, they are only a small part of the whole - the American Southwest and Northern Mexico has a vast and complex history and geology. Considering how few clues we do have as to the location of Vainopa, one key bit of info allows us to safely rule OUT the Superstitions, that it is three days travel from Tayopa.
    Oroblanco
    Hey Roy,

    You said you read the Arizona part, but did you read it fully? You seem to skip right over what I told you twice previously! Neither the Bradshaws nor the Supers were mentioned because they NEVER went that far North! They didn't get much past Tucson and the confluence of the Gila and Colorado Rivers. THAT IS WHY THEY AREN'T MENTIONED! It has absolutely nothing to do with their importance.

    I don't simply assume anything. If you had read the rest of the book, you would have seen that it is basically a step-by-step journal of his travels. He mentions every little backwater village he visited and every mine both working and not working. He goes into agonizing detail about traveling up different streambeds and mountain saddles. THAT IS THE WHOLE BOOK! Do you REALLY think that if he had actually gone through the Supers or the Bradshaws he would have COMPLETELY omitted it?

    I will say it for the fourth time: Neither the Supers nor the Bradshaws were mentioned because Box never got that far North. Never went further North than about Tucson. Simple!

    Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  4. #34
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Don Jose wrote
    Is this the lost Vainopa mine?
    Could be amigo - who can say?

    Gollum wrote
    You seem to skip right over what I told you twice previously!
    And you seem to avoid answering a simple question! You have implied that the Superstition mountains were as important <for gold prospectors> as the Bradshaws prior to 1870, can you provide evidence to support that idea? Thank you in advance,
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  5. #35
    Charter Member
    om
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Don Jose wrote
    Is this the lost Vainopa mine?
    Could be amigo - who can say?

    Gollum wrote
    You seem to skip right over what I told you twice previously!
    And you seem to avoid answering a simple question! You have implied that the Superstition mountains were as important <for gold prospectors> as the Bradshaws prior to 1870, can you provide evidence to support that idea? Thank you in advance,
    Roy
    Roy,

    Are you reading MY posts or something else?

    I didn't imply any such thing. Regarding Vainopa, I posted:

    I don't see a connection between Vainopa and the Supers, but the book will not shed any light on it because they didn't travel further North than Tucson.
    The ONLY thing I said regarding their importance was:

    I don't see a connection between Vainopa and the Supers, but the book will not shed any light on it because they didn't travel further North than Tucson.
    Oh, I'm sorry. Is that the same quote? I guess it is, because it answers both of your questions.

    Come on Roy. We're doing this again.

    Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  6. #36
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Yeah Mike it is all me. Have you read your own posts? You stated that Box didn't include the Bradshaws (only because he had not traveled through them, which is not the point in dispute) which were definitely important for gold prospectors of that time period (before Waltz died) and thus directly implied that the Superstitions were on a par with the Bradshaws. You still haven't supplied a source to support the contention that the Superstitions were important enough in 1869, that if Box had traveled through them he would have included them, as he would with the Bradshaws. I guess you aren't going to and will keep dodging with your previous replies, which does not address the question. I say that the Superstitions were just not that important prior to Waltz's death, but if proof can be shown that this is incorrect, I don't mind 'eatin crow' and would LOVE to read such documentation. Do you understand what I am asking you? It appears (so far) not - though you did object to my mention of this apparent un-importance, you haven't tried to refute it with evidence that shows the Supers were considered an important mining district in 1870 and before.

    I hope you have a great evening, I won't bother you further on this especially as it has zilch to do with the topic here.
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  7. #37
    Charter Member
    om
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Yeah Mike it is all me. Have you read your own posts? You stated that Box didn't include the Bradshaws (only because he had not traveled through them, which is not the point in dispute) which were definitely important for gold prospectors of that time period (before Waltz died) and thus directly implied that the Superstitions were on a par with the Bradshaws. You still haven't supplied a source to support the contention that the Superstitions were important enough in 1869, that if Box had traveled through them he would have included them, as he would with the Bradshaws. I guess you aren't going to and will keep dodging with your previous replies, which does not address the question. I say that the Superstitions were just not that important prior to Waltz's death, but if proof can be shown that this is incorrect, I don't mind 'eatin crow' and would LOVE to read such documentation. Do you understand what I am asking you? It appears (so far) not - though you did object to my mention of this apparent un-importance, you haven't tried to refute it with evidence that shows the Supers were considered an important mining district in 1870 and before.

    I hope you have a great evening, I won't bother you further on this especially as it has zilch to do with the topic here.
    Roy

    JEEEEEEEEEEZUS Roy,

    READ THE ENTIRE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN for the umpteenth time: If you bothered to read the whole book, you would see that IT IS A STEP BY STEP JOURNAL OF HIS TRAVELS. IF YOU READ THE ENTIRE BOOK, you would see that he leaves NOTHING out regarding where he traveled. IF YOU READ THE ENTIRE BOOK, you would understand that if he had traveled through either the Supers or the Bradshaws he would have provided a step-by-step description of exactly which route they took, which canyons they traversed, etc.

    AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME: I NEVER BY DIRECT STATEMENTS NOR INFERENCE STATE THAT THE SUPERS WERE AS IMPORTANT AS THE BRADSHAWS REGARDING MINING. I ONLY MENTIONED THE BRADSHAWS BECAUSE BOX NEVER ONCE MENTIONED THEM IN THE BOOK. THEY WERE VERY IMPORTANT SOURCES OF MINERAL WEALTH IN THE 1860S. WHY DID HE NEVER MENTION THEM?

    I love ya man, but you always argue the same way! You nitpick at something you think I am saying while dancing around the main issue.

    Come on READ my posts. Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  8. #38
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Mike you just miss it, and assume that I have NOT read your posts, and this happens a LOT. Nitpicking, you call it, but you had made the implication that the Bradshaws were on a par with the Superstitions and I asked to see something that supports that contention. You have gone back to issues which were not what I asked you. When I asked again, you didn't get it and we go through this, which you see as "nitpicking" when all I was asking had been missed entirely. Now you have answered the question. Makes for frustrating discussion, for both parties. Jeez indeed.

    Now to try to return to the topic matter, I found the article suggested earlier by our amigo Dustcap; here is an extract

    A story is told by an American who had lived among the Apaches for a number of years of a beautiful and fertile valley which showed traces of a former dense population in the ruins which remained and the great number of planted fruit trees still bearing fruit. There were once worked in this wild part of the Sierra two famous mines the location of which is now lost. They are said to have been the property of the Jesuits who before their expulsion from Mexico held nearly all the mines in the country. The tradition says that the Apaches killed every soul in the two mines of Vainopa and Tayopa and so they were forgotten until recent times when people studying the old church books and early Spanish documents discovered the record of existence. Several expeditions have been sent out one I believe by the Government but in vain. Being situated in a very rough country these mines are awaiting their re-discoverer and the Governor of Chihuahua who told me much about them, felt very sanguine that I was to be the lucky one to find them encouraging me by saying that if I found Tayopa it be worth fifty million dollars. More than the of riches to which I am not indifferent my zeal science is stimulated by the hope of meeting in Sierra Madre with people who are living to day as were before the coming of the Spaniards <Journal of the American Geographical Society of New York, Volume 23 By American Geographical Society of New York, 1891 pp 388>

    This states that Vainopa was lost at the same time as Tayopa, and that old church and Spanish documents recorded the existence. Interesting, no?

    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  9. #39
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Roy,

    It was a good story up to this point:

    "They are said to have been the property of the Jesuits who before their expulsion from Mexico held nearly all the mines in the country."

    Going back farther in the article, they had woodpeckers cutting down entire trees.

    This should be filed under "Folklore".

    Take care,

    Joe


  10. #40
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy,

    It was a good story up to this point:

    "They are said to have been the property of the Jesuits who before their expulsion from Mexico held nearly all the mines in the country."

    Going back farther in the article, they had woodpeckers cutting down entire trees.

    This should be filed under "Folklore".

    Take care,

    Joe

    Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have seen trees that fell down and looked like woodpeckers had done it, so have no problem there; in fact one in particular was a tall dead Beech tree about a foot in diameter, that the woodpeckers had been working on for quite a while before it came down right on top of a trapline cabin leaving a huge hole in the roof; <a rather unpleasant surprise to find at the end of a day's work, I will add> as for Lumholtz's use of the term "Mexico" and saying that Jesuits held "nearly all the mines" that appears to be Lumholtz's take based on what info he had. As easily as you dismiss him and his words as "folklore", here is what Wiki says about Carl Lumholtz

    Carl Sofus Lumholtz (1851 – 1922) was a Norwegian explorer and ethnographer, best known for his meticulous field research and ethnographic publications on indigenous cultures of Australia and Mesoamerican central Mexico.

    Born in Faberg, Norway, Lumholtz graduated in theology in 1876 from the University of Christiania, now the University of Oslo.

    Lumholtz travelled to Australia in 1880, where he spent ten months from 1882-1883 amongst the indigenous inhabitants of the Herbert-Burdekin region in North Queensland. He wrote a book about his experience, Among Cannibals: An Account of Four Years' Travels in Australia and of Camp Life with the Aborigines of Queensland, first published in 1889, which is regarded as the finest ethnographic research of the period for the northern Queensland Aborigines [1]. Whereas previous authors had commented only upon the aesthetic physical appearances and material culture of the region's indigenous people, Lumholtz added a level of academic research that was unique for the period. His work recorded for the first time the social relationships, attitudes and the role of women in the society. It should be pointed out that regardless of the title of the book, Queensland Aboriginals were not (and still are not) known to consume human flesh. He also gave a series of two lectures on "Among Australian Natives" for the Lowell Institute for their 1889-90 season.[2]

    Lumholtz later travelled to Mexico with the Swedish botanist C. V. Hartman He stayed for many years, conducting several expeditions from 1890 through to 1910 which were paid for by the American Museum of Natural History. His work, Unknown Mexico, was a 1902 two-volume set describing many of the indigenous peoples of northwestern Mexico, including the Cora, Tepehuán, Pima Bajo, and especially the Tarahumara, among whom he lived for more than a year. Lumholtz was one of the first to describe artifacts from the ancient shaft tomb and the Tarascan cultures. He described archaeological sites, as well as the flora and fauna, of the northern Sierra Madre region called the gran Chichimeca. He gave a series of three lectures on "The Characteristics of Cave Dwellers of the Sierra Madre" for the Lowell Institute's 1893-94 season.[2]

    In 1905 Lumholtz was a founding member of the Explorers Club, an organization to promote exploration and scientific investigation in the field.[3] He went on a brief expedition to India from 1914-1915, then to Borneo from 1915 to 1917, which was his last expedition.

    In 1922 Lumholtz died of tuberculosis at Saranac Lake, New York, where he was seeking treatment at a sanatorium. He had published six books on his discoveries, as well as the autobiography My Life of Exploration (1921).

    His greatest legacy was his books and his way of working, which strongly influenced the field of ethnography.

    The Lumholtz National Park of North Queensland was named in his honor when created in 1994. However, the name was subsequently changed to Girringun National Park in 2003 to reflect its indigenous roots.
    The Mexican conifer, Lumholtz's Pine Pinus lumholtzii, was named after him.
    The marsupial species, Lumholtz's Tree-kangaroo, was named after him.



    <From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sofus_Lumholtz >

    I have a good deal of respect for Lumholtz and respectfully disagree that any of his report should be dismissed as "folklore". We all have our opinions, and the statements you have pointed out are actually supported by other sources, as we covered in another thread.

    Roy

    PS the Encyclopedia Brittanica includes information on the mythical creatures Pooka and Piast, should we dismiss the Brittanica in whole based on this inclusion?
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  11. #41
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Roy,

    Why then the statement I was denigrating as "Folklore" must be true. How foolish of me. Of course the Jesuits must have "held nearly all the mines in the country."

    "I have a good deal of respect for Lumholtz and respectfully disagree that any of his report should be dismissed as "folklore". We all have our opinions, and the statements you have pointed out are actually supported by other sources, as we covered in another thread."

    I did not attack the man's entire body of work, just that one statement.

    So it's your opinion that the Jesuits actually "held nearly all the mines" in Mexico? Now that's one hell of a cover-up.

    Take care,

    Joe


  12. #42
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy,

    Why then the statement I was denigrating as "Folklore" must be true. How foolish of me. Of course the Jesuits must have "held nearly all the mines in the country."

    "I have a good deal of respect for Lumholtz and respectfully disagree that any of his report should be dismissed as "folklore". We all have our opinions, and the statements you have pointed out are actually supported by other sources, as we covered in another thread."

    I did not attack the man's entire body of work, just that one statement.

    So it's your opinion that the Jesuits actually "held nearly all the mines" in Mexico? Now that's one hell of a cover-up.

    Take care,

    Joe

    Where did I say that it is my opinion that the Jesuits held nearly all the mines in Mexico? Here is what I wrote earlier, perhaps it was missed;

    <snip>...as for Lumholtz's use of the term "Mexico" and saying that Jesuits held "nearly all the mines" that appears to be Lumholtz's take based on what info he had.
    <http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...tml#msg2311141>

    I am well aware that you believe in the efforts of Father Polzer, that there were no Jesuits mining in Mexico, with perhaps the small exception. I respectfully disagree.

    Gee could we derail this topic any further Joe? Lets do get into poly-ticks, I am sure that we can get some heated disagreement on that too!
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  13. #43
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    On second thought, I believe I am done with this thread. Have fun!
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #44
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    ACTUALLY:

    If you Google the title of the book, you will find it FREE for download as EITHER a .pdf or EPub from Google Books.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=StJ...page&q&f=false

    Enjoy-Mike
    Awesome! Mike

    I am thoroughly enjoying reading every word.

    Do you know of any other free downloads of books of this type?

    GG~

    ~Diggin The Adventure~
    Visit My Personal Forum Pages

  15. #45
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,774
    1583 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Gentlemen: One must remember to try to put all data in respect to accompanying data in the proper context.

    The remark on the woodpeckers cutting ( destroying) vast forests, can well be true.

    Supposition:

    A) The Wood pecker population had increased in that period due to an increased food production. The food consists of various insects that are very destructive to trees. So the evidence of increased Woodpecker activity being associated with culling the insects and the forest decreasing, is plausible.


    B) Did he actually write the document himself or did he have a professional do it? If another did it, it could easily have been taken out of intended original context.

    C) Was it printed in the original language or was it later translated.? Again another similar situation as above.

    As for the remark about the Jesuits,

    A) Remember he was talking about northern Mexico, and at that time. Again we must referr to the above remarks.

    B) Even today, we really have no true idea of the possible extent of Jesuit involvement in mining, other than as time goes by, and as it is further investigated, it becomes more and more plausible, especially as we find that they did not front many of their operations as Jesuits.

    Remember, I am sitting on top of one of their better examples, both in legendary (folklore ) status and supposed Jesuit involvement, which stretches so far as to involve international intrigue which resulted in their actual expulsion.

    Relax, why get personal in things which have yet to be established, let alone proven. Since we actually don't know, how can we be considered as experts enough to become nit pickers on documents which have been translated and re translated various times.

    I am quite sure that his documents were thoroughly reviewed by his peers, many of whom were in serious competition with him and would have loved to find fault with them.

    Remember, in the case of the Lost Dutchman mine, there are literally a hundred books on it. Most are simply copies of each other, and what was believed to be the original information, with slight modifications to attempt to explain why it hadn't been found with the previous ones. YET??

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

 
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