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  1. #41
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,288
    508 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Roy,

    Why then the statement I was denigrating as "Folklore" must be true. How foolish of me. Of course the Jesuits must have "held nearly all the mines in the country."

    "I have a good deal of respect for Lumholtz and respectfully disagree that any of his report should be dismissed as "folklore". We all have our opinions, and the statements you have pointed out are actually supported by other sources, as we covered in another thread."

    I did not attack the man's entire body of work, just that one statement.

    So it's your opinion that the Jesuits actually "held nearly all the mines" in Mexico? Now that's one hell of a cover-up.

    Take care,

    Joe


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  3. #42
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy,

    Why then the statement I was denigrating as "Folklore" must be true. How foolish of me. Of course the Jesuits must have "held nearly all the mines in the country."

    "I have a good deal of respect for Lumholtz and respectfully disagree that any of his report should be dismissed as "folklore". We all have our opinions, and the statements you have pointed out are actually supported by other sources, as we covered in another thread."

    I did not attack the man's entire body of work, just that one statement.

    So it's your opinion that the Jesuits actually "held nearly all the mines" in Mexico? Now that's one hell of a cover-up.

    Take care,

    Joe

    Where did I say that it is my opinion that the Jesuits held nearly all the mines in Mexico? Here is what I wrote earlier, perhaps it was missed;

    <snip>...as for Lumholtz's use of the term "Mexico" and saying that Jesuits held "nearly all the mines" that appears to be Lumholtz's take based on what info he had.
    <http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...tml#msg2311141>

    I am well aware that you believe in the efforts of Father Polzer, that there were no Jesuits mining in Mexico, with perhaps the small exception. I respectfully disagree.

    Gee could we derail this topic any further Joe? Lets do get into poly-ticks, I am sure that we can get some heated disagreement on that too!
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #43
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    On second thought, I believe I am done with this thread. Have fun!
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  5. #44
    Charter Member
    us
    I can dig it! "WP"

    Mar 2007
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    ACTUALLY:

    If you Google the title of the book, you will find it FREE for download as EITHER a .pdf or EPub from Google Books.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=StJ...page&q&f=false

    Enjoy-Mike
    Awesome! Mike

    I am thoroughly enjoying reading every word.

    Do you know of any other free downloads of books of this type?

    GG~

    ~Diggin The Adventure~
    Visit My Personal Forum Pages

  6. #45
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,203
    834 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Gentlemen: One must remember to try to put all data in respect to accompanying data in the proper context.

    The remark on the woodpeckers cutting ( destroying) vast forests, can well be true.

    Supposition:

    A) The Wood pecker population had increased in that period due to an increased food production. The food consists of various insects that are very destructive to trees. So the evidence of increased Woodpecker activity being associated with culling the insects and the forest decreasing, is plausible.


    B) Did he actually write the document himself or did he have a professional do it? If another did it, it could easily have been taken out of intended original context.

    C) Was it printed in the original language or was it later translated.? Again another similar situation as above.

    As for the remark about the Jesuits,

    A) Remember he was talking about northern Mexico, and at that time. Again we must referr to the above remarks.

    B) Even today, we really have no true idea of the possible extent of Jesuit involvement in mining, other than as time goes by, and as it is further investigated, it becomes more and more plausible, especially as we find that they did not front many of their operations as Jesuits.

    Remember, I am sitting on top of one of their better examples, both in legendary (folklore ) status and supposed Jesuit involvement, which stretches so far as to involve international intrigue which resulted in their actual expulsion.

    Relax, why get personal in things which have yet to be established, let alone proven. Since we actually don't know, how can we be considered as experts enough to become nit pickers on documents which have been translated and re translated various times.

    I am quite sure that his documents were thoroughly reviewed by his peers, many of whom were in serious competition with him and would have loved to find fault with them.

    Remember, in the case of the Lost Dutchman mine, there are literally a hundred books on it. Most are simply copies of each other, and what was believed to be the original information, with slight modifications to attempt to explain why it hadn't been found with the previous ones. YET??

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  7. #46
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,203
    834 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Gullum : sigh for some reason they just don't want to download E-Books to an Mexican server

    You posted --> If you can't get the pdf download from Google Books, let me know and I'll email the book

    K, I am going to have to ask you to please em me it. I'll pay you back with 500 muleloads of genuine bat Guano when I finally open Tayopa.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  8. #47
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,288
    508 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Don Jose,

    Carl Lumholtz's area of expertise, other than the formal training he had in Theology, was as an ethnographer. In that respect, he lived with and examined the lives and societies of the native people. Ethnographer's are not known for delving into the documented history of nations, such a Mexico, but spend their careers in the field. At least that would be the case with Lumholtz.

    When he writes about Jesuit Mining, chances are he is repeating the verbal folklore of the native people he lived with, rather than the written, contemporaneous, history documented by Europeans. It may very well be that the native history is as accurate, or even more accurate than the Europeans, but both viewed the events through the prism of personal bias and experience.

    In addition to that, I believe the modern native history is colored by wanting to tell you what they think you want to hear (common) and the additional desire to keep you around for the obvious economic benefits. I believe you know that to be factual.

    Carl Lumholtz was a prolific and dedicated ethnographer, but when he crossed over into historical "facts", he may have gone with the better story, rather than the historical reality.

    On the other hand, he may have been right on the money. I prefer to go with the weight of the historical writings. These are just my personal opinions based on what I have read.

    Take care,

    Joe

  9. #48
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,203
    834 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    good evening Joe: I understand precisely what you are saying and tend to agree. Unfortunately I am sitting on top of an embarrassing bit of history that cannot be denied, Tayopa. Even the resident Priest at Yecora was extremely agitated and insisted in a long get together with a huge pot of coffee when he saw the Tayopa decal on the side of the truck, my present avatar. For many reasons, we still haven't had that meeting yet, my fault.

    I will have mapped out the clandestine route that they used to leap frog precious metals across Northen Mexico to one of several bays below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome, when I finally have identified all, or most, of the Missions, Visitantes, etc. on that route.

    There is one near Yepache on the present cross sierra road, that has basically disappeared on the surface, it had finally crumbled down to the point that it has been plowed under long ago. The local Indians have old documents which state that as usual, when one of the Jesuit mule trains arrived with metal being transported to Matamoros, the metal was put in the underground room for over night security. However it never was removed and is still there. they are not sure, but believe that it was at the time of the expulsion.

    There is another one days ride from Tayopa. it is buried in the deposit in the side of a hill. One of my prime targets in the near future. Very interesting story here.

    Also, in the search, I have been encountering other bits of history that have yet to be written officially, in that they were involved in far more than mining. Some of which were confirmed verbally by my associate's visit with the then no 2 of the Jesuit hierarchy in Rome.

    Even today they are not a quiet, submissive order, but are commencing to flex their muscles again.

    However I personally do not hold this against them, They are no different than any other major religious organization. fighting and plotting to survive and advance their order.

    Your remark that Lumholtz was a Theologian is interesting, since because of that, he must have understood or known some thing of the Jesuits, perhaps more than we will ever be privy to, or know how different religious orders practiced under the law.

    Even today, we are undergoing the pedophile scandals of various Priests, something that is basically against the Lord's wishes, according to the very book that they teach, as well as normal civil law.. This also indicates their attitude towards the law, most are not being punished under the statutes. or in most cases, by their own order. They were even more exempt in the 16 - 1700's.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  10. #49

    Feb 2006
    96

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    quite sometime back i posted (rather got roy decker) a link to carl lumbholtz's 5 years of liveing and explorying mexico( a free book to download) if anyone is interested in it ,i still have it saved in my pc. it tells a lot about the people ,places, and custom of the indians of north mexaco.i think it is set in the late 1800's and is a day to day journal of his travels. whitt459

  11. #50
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    I recall and still have that e-book amigo, it was an excellent read and thank you again.
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  12. #51
    Charter Member
    us
    I can dig it! "WP"

    Mar 2007
    Bounty Hunter's, Whites TM 808, Whites GMT, L-rods
    4,422
    1417 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by whitt459
    quite sometime back i posted (rather got roy decker) a link to carl lumbholtz's 5 years of liveing and explorying mexico( a free book to download) if anyone is interested in it ,i still have it saved in my pc. it tells a lot about the people ,places, and custom of the indians of north mexaco.i think it is set in the late 1800's and is a day to day journal of his travels. whitt459
    I would be very interested in reading Mr. Lumholtz's book.
    Would you please post the link or PM it to me?

    Sincerely,
    GG~
    ~Diggin The Adventure~
    Visit My Personal Forum Pages

  13. #52
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
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    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Try this linkee
    http://books.google.com/books?id=zaF...page&q&f=false

    Or try downloading from Gutenburg
    http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16426

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #53
    Charter Member
    us
    I can dig it! "WP"

    Mar 2007
    Bounty Hunter's, Whites TM 808, Whites GMT, L-rods
    4,422
    1417 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Try this linkee
    http://books.google.com/books?id=zaF...page&q&f=false

    Or try downloading from Gutenburg
    http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16426

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
    Oroblanco
    Thank you very much Amigo!

    I also found a link for volume 2 :
    A record of five years' exploration among the tribes of the western Sierra Madre; in the tierra caliente of Tepic and Jalisco; and among the Tarascos of Michoacan (1902)

    http://ia310818.us.archive.org/3/ite...orec02lumh.pdf


    Muchas gracias,
    GG~
    ~Diggin The Adventure~
    Visit My Personal Forum Pages

  15. #54
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,120
    648 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Wow muchas gracias to YOU amigo! I didn't have Vol 2! I appreciate that, and so will our readers here, thanks again.
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  16. #55

    Apr 2008
    61
    53 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    hi ,its my opinion that vainopa and guaynopa are one and the same. its just a hunch based on some coincedental factors ,that i have seen time and time again as the spanish tried to put their spelling and accent on indian words that before had never been written . you probably know that the w sound an the letter w are seldom seen and used in spanish. when the w sound needs to be spelled in spanish it is most correct to use the gu, ,but if i were trying to sound it out a lesser educated person could easily use the v. .due to the geographical proximety of the two mines and with similar names ,especially trying to make sense of a native word, my guess its one and the same place. the tayopa mission was for the first few decades spelled teopa .in the letters the visiting priests sent back to the jesuit headquarters in mexico city. the "opa " stands "for the place of "

  17. #56
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,120
    648 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    Hola amigo,
    I see your point and that is very possible; however what about the "three days travel" from Tayopa to Vainopa/Guaynopa? Will that work, based on the road/trail network that existed at that time? Thank you in advance;
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  18. #57

    Apr 2008
    61
    53 times

    Re: Lost Vainopa mine

    hi oro ,i dont have any thing to reference that with ,to give an answer. off the top of my head yes .but i really dont know

 

 
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