Early Tayopa newspaper story

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose

I am beginning too why and how the early archive records was dispersed. I see I have to do home work on Sonora. There is not much description of the early Jesuit mission settlements and the the Yaqui going a name change on some maps. Is Tayopa the full name or is there any earlier spelling versions of that name? It seems the region went through several boundary changes one possible reason for such Church records being scattered. That and catastrophic Indian attacks.

Thanks for the Map. I have a map also that I will post. You statements on Flipper I agree there appears to connection with Greene around 1900. Flipper never returned to Mexico.

Here is shipping record returning to the United States.



Corp

 

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[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose

It is funny you mentioned the Vatican archives.

I have been perhaps the youngest person to ever have access to some records of the Vatican Archive. It was only via a deal to see some Vatican bank records and thus we were never given liberty to browse other item as it is strictly forbidden. The archives indexing system is ancient and archaic. And if you have not worked there for a hundred years or so, you never Have an idea where things is. To be an archivist there you virtually need to be an Latin Scholar. Most of all the whole archive has a gas fire fighting suppression system if any hint of fire the whole archive gets gasses depleting the archives of Oxygen. Sadly if your inside when there is a fire you will asphyxiate. So the only access you have is a small reading room. items are pre ordered as arranged. All applications of access will be assessed via the head archivist. There is a waiting time and all scholars must have historical qualifications higher than post graduate. A resume of academic authorities and letter of application must accompany the applicant from a relevant Educational institution.

So you see the general public will never see the inside of the place. So here is a picture of inside the archives. There are 52 miles of shelving of books journal letters document etc...The Vatican Archives also has considerable holdings relating to the activities of Jesuits. However it is not the only place where Jesuit documents are held.

ARSI is the archives of the central government of the Society of Jesus worldwide. It does not hold all Jesuit collections that scholars might seek. For example, the Fondo Gesuitico dei Manoscritti (Jesuit manuscript collection) is held by the Biblioteca Nazionale Centrale Vittorio Emanuele II, and by the Archivio di Stato, Rome. But there might be documents of interest there you know where to look.



There is a 3 volume book by Ignaz Pfefferkorn (1726-1798) was a German born Jesuit Missionary.* In 1751, he first arrived at the ruins of the Mission in Sonoyto, in Sonora (on the modern US-Mexico Border opposite Lukeville, Arizona), which had been destroyed in 1751, during an Indian uprising against the Spanish and Jesuit Missionaries.* Over the next 12 years, he visited a number of Missions in the region, including the Missions of Primeria Alta.* After the Jesuits fell out of favor, he returned to Spain.* In 1794, he published a 3 volume work on his travels and observations in Sonora, one of the*earliest comprehensive first hand accounts on the region. Which may be of some help.

Anyway I hope you enjoyed the post.

Corp

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag post please ignore, and do continue!
Oroblanco

 

[Corporate Investigations]

I have due to size limitations cropped the following Rare map of Baja California and parts of Mexico and the area around the Gila River engraved by C. Du Puis, whom Tooley lists only a having published maps in Sonora in 1794.
The map appeared in Beschreibung der landschaft Sonora,*by*Jesuit Missionary Fra. Ignaz*Pfefferkorn in Cologne in 1794. please if you can clarify the identity of the villages around Tayopa as I can search through those parish registers.



Please correct me if I am wrong but it appears on this 1794 map, your site is outside the Provence of Ostimuri, so perhaps the Provence boundary over the years was rather fluid and never fully fixed. It appears the Provence was later absorbed by Sonora so perhaps that and of course the Indian uprising 1642 uprising and the later 1751 uprising and eventual Spanish expulsion in 1767.

It is not clear where Henry O Flipper found Tayopa documents. It claimed in a village in Eastern Sonora? I suspect Ocampo Chihuahua?

Considering the claims of Carl Sauer a Californian Scholar found in 1927 various Marriage Banns before 1700 regarding Tayopa in Arizpe. He also Found Baptismal records of Guadalupe De Tayopa in the Church Archives of Bacadeguachi

And another claim of records in Grandos.

Some of these earlier Jesuit Baptismal, Marriage banns and Death record must of been taken over by the Franciscans after the Jesuits was expelled. Anyway it would be interesting to see if we could relocate these alleged Tayopa documents providing they have survived to present day.

There is of course no guarantee the relevant records have survived even through the twentieth century?

I am going to search those parishes that are connected in the above places. I do state it is not my intention that these documents are a smocking gun as they are not. None will help with the location of the site however they will fill in the gaps a little on the history of the site.

So please be patient as it will still take quite awhile to search.

Corp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'Morning A Corp: Coffee? so far you have done an excellent job, "where-n-ell" were you 20 years ago when ?? Since so far I have most of the data that you have turned up so 'quickly', I can 'certify' that you have an A+ rating in results. You fulfill you mentors statement 100 %.

Oro is my assoc. and naturally has my confidence, I believe that he can second my remark.

For your information, I already have Tayopa, and it is held by a valid mining claim. But you are doing a marvelous job of backing up my conclusions and data by conclusive 'source data', which is very necessary for the next step. So far it has been mostly visualizatin,

If'n you were here, I would give you a huge smooch AND another cuppa coffee - the coffee prob has a supperior value sigh..

On your latest map I have indicated approximately where 'T' should be by the 'X', it lies approx 60 kilometers south of the present Yecora. Unfortunately my scanning devices etc., are very old and not very flexible - or should I more correctly say I am not well enough versed to take full advantage of them.

Another of the problems in the Search for Tayopa is that later many new mines being filed upon, thinking that they had found Tayopa, developed *******ized version of Tayopa, hence looking for Tayopa in any 'mining records' is useless as many have found out..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning again luv, I forgot to mention that I had been in contact with Jesuit Father POLZER, his last em to me said " when you open Tayopa I will be there to dance the first dance for you, I have new dancing shoes" a pro or con remark ??

Unfortunately, he died in Santa Barbara while waiting for a resection of his elimination system. He just went to sleep while waiting for the surgery and never woke up. He was gone when they went to wheel him into surgery.

He was a kick to talk to. extremely Intelligent, and had a quick wit. He was the driving force to 'Canonize' Padre Kino and had received many honors etc., from Spain.

I liked him very much.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Luv: The full name was "Guadalupe de Tayopa". There were three (3) Tayopas, the first was at Guaynopa, later moved to near Yecora They tok the name Tayopa with them and called this new mining center "Guadalupe de Tayopa, this was Tayopa no.2

Then they found the Actual Tayopa of fame and of Dobies "Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver" which is the Tayopa of the fame and for which they still search for. They took the name 'Guadalupe de Tayopa' from the second one and after called it La Trinidad ( La Divine Trinidad )

The Tayopa of fame and richness is actually Tayopa no.3, my Tayopa.

Hope that doesn't add to your problems hehhe you can imagine what it did for the early searchers.

Don Jose de La Mancha

.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI again luv: Oro gve me the data by Ignaz Pfefferkorn, and another, long ago gave me a Spanish copy of his journal.

sorry for so many posts but if it will aid you, I will post.

Keep up the excellent work.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

I would only add that the full name appears to have been
Our Lady of Guadelupe de Tayopa

This has been posted before, an English translation of the Tayopa Inventory document:

A true and positive description of the mining camp Real of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tayopa, made in January 1646, by the Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla, whom my God keep long years.

Four bells, the largest weighing 28 arrobas and 17 pounds on which where inscribed Tayopa. One bell inscribed TAYOPA. One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 11 arrobas and 10 pounds.One small bell inscribed PIEDAD. Weight 5 arrobas. These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.

One high cross of carved silver from the Tayopa mine, weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds, with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the Paramo placer.A pair of processional.candle holders and six bars of hammered silver, weighing 4 arrobas, 13 pounds from Santo Nino Mine.Four incensories of silver and gold plated, weighing 1 arroba, 3 pounds from the Cristo Mine. In a cut-stone box are stored jewellery. Box is buried in basement under room built of stone and mud, between the church and side of convent and fruit garden.


One large custody with silver bracket, weighing 1 arroba from Santo Nino Mine, with gold glimmer from placer El Paramo and four fine mounted stones from Remedios Mine.Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo.One shrine with four hammered silver columns weighing 4 arrobas from Senor de la Buena Muerto Mine.Sixty-five cargas [packloads] of silver packed in cow-hide bags, each containing 8 arrobas, 12 pounds. Eleven cargas of gold from four mines and placer El Paramo, each wrapped in cloth and cow-hide, with a total weight of 99 arrobas [2512 pounds].Also 183 arrobas of Castilla ore, and 65 arrobas first-class Castilla ore from El Paramo, with a know assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury.


For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior.

The account I have, has it that a near duplicate to it was found in the possession of a priest in the village of Guadelupe de Santa Ana, in Sonora, in 1927. Wiki has a photo of Lt Flipper, which I will add here.


Please do continue, if I can locate the name of the village where Flipper found the inventory document, or the marriage banns, I will post it.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon Oro de Tayopa. I might add that one of the problems with the scattered, few documents on Tayopa is in establishing the sequence. ACorp has already established the Bans as coming from Arizpe. Your document was uncovered, along with others of great importance by my friends, friends family, in a trunk buried in a corner in the ruins of a Mission . Among the documents found was the distances from Tayopa itself to the different mines.

After finding Tayopa, I was able to confirm this data by back measuring from the Los Remedios mine and from there confirm the accuracy of the rest. Twas fun. Here is part of the data from that trunk showing the distances of the mines from each other. This in itself was further confirmation, since there is only one way could 18 mines be in the close vicinity fo each other as the Tayopa group.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose.

Thank you for the complements but I think the complements should be coming from me.

Wow amazing story you have! You must write a book but guess I am sure more than one person has told you that?

I hope any of small things I might find maybe be of some help in supporting the story and add to the history of your discovery of Tayopa. one thing I may add as an observation is I do not think William Cornell Greene with whatever Henry O flipper ever actually discovered in regards to documents never actually found Tayopa itself. Green's history is one with his own conflicts and crash of his empire. All at best I can do is perhaps find a few fragments of historic Script referring to your site. My Boss sort of already inferred that you had discovered the site awhile ago. He told me there is a lesson to learn from it? That never under estimate some one who has passion and determination to spend years chasing down a treasure legend.

So regardless he has advised me to check through the thousands of marriage bans, and Baptismal records that might be relevant as an exercise in determination. My boss is very astute in these matters....

Anyway if I find some thing of interest I will PM you.



Regards corp.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning A,Corp. time for my morning coffee, join Oro and me??

You are correct, neither Greene nor Flipper ever were near Tayopa.

Tayopa is unique. Yes, I found it by the back door system, simply by finding it before I had enough physical documentary proof for a paper, or to develop enough capital to work it. .. One might say that I developed it by a system of rumors and hinted at documents, or simply word of mouth which formed the basis for physical expeditions, with the one exception of positively determining it's workings and access location thanks to modern technology..

While my fort is Spatial visualization, 'developing working capital is not'.

What I hope that you can come up with, is some valid evidence that it indeed 'did' exist, you have done extremely well so far on very vague references, HL should be proud of his protoge"

It has played a large part in the historical movement in North America, especially Mexico. As noted it was discovered and worked by the Jesuits, and played an important part in the Attempted take over of North America by the Society.

It also played an important part in the reason for Napoleon / Franch establishing Maximilian in Mexico, to help rebuild Frances' financial basis..

So in three phases of Mexico's development it, or it's potential, played a large part in Mexico and the Western US.

One thought that might have promise, is that Leopold, the king of Belgium, was possibly interested in it. He had close relations with the Jesuit Society & France. When Maximilian went to Mexico, his closest adviser was a Belgian Mining engr. Carlotta, Leopold's daughter,was married to Maximilian, a very closely knit situation which should be investigated. ORO started this train of data.

Putting it all together makes an intriguing situation from start to the present. Actually it is a researchers' fun project.

Again I thank both you,and HL, from the bottom of my heart for the effort that you are doing

Don Jose de La Mancha ( Til Eulenspiegle )

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Okay a coffee will do nicely.

In regards to Napoleon and France's attempt to manipulate Mexico to their own ends with the puppet Maximilian in power. Certainly an interesting idea. There may be some merit in that theory. The following newspaper story about many French miners wanting to settle and mine the riches of Sonora a few years before the French intervention in Mexico. The united states was in civil war it became an opportunity for a little bit of French covert expansionism and of course a little cash grab at the riches on offer in Sonora.





You can see possibility that the early attempt of French miners reported in a newspaper on November first 1852 to grab a slice of their own gold rush in Sonora must of influenced and possibility convinced the French government of the merits of such a venture with Maximilian.

Corp

 

[Corporate Investigations]

In some respects you can feel a little sorry for Carlota and Maximilian as they were rather manipulated pawns in a power play between the United States and France over the mineral wealth to be exploited in Sonora Mexico.

We once traced provenance of some Gems back to Carlota and Maximilian. They was smuggled into the United States around 1900 as contraband by three Mexicans who made an illegal entry into United States by US Customs. Most were sold via Diamond brokers in New York. My Boss once showed me one of beautiful diamonds that now belonged to a wealthy Diamond merchant in Florida. Another huge gem was bought by Esmeralda Marcos for an insane sum. But that is another story for another time.

Anywhere her is a picture of the tragic couple.



Corp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

You certainly earned your coffee this morning. ACorp luv, Fantastic post. the news paper article was fascinating reading. While he was definitely correct on many things, one must remember that many people did exist, and some in luxury, for that time in Sonora.

Also the Apache excursions into Sonora from the 1600's had a tremendous impact on the Towns, Ranches, and mines of the period.

Our surveyor is Apache, his mother never returned to the US after the Apache wars ended, We had many interesting talks on the Apache manner of warfare and why they laid waste to Mexico for some 3-400 years, partly justified, but mostly because they were semi nomadic. they were hunters, of both game and man and raised very few crops. What the land did not provide. the other people did through effectively banditry.

They were not the super warriors that Hollywood shows, but of the ambushing kind. If the initial ambush did not succeed to a great extent, they just faded away. They early learned of the meaning of "Attrition" in warriors.

My Yaqui's - I lived with them for 5 years - considered them Inferior warriors, and distant cousins, but then doesn't every one consider their own group as superior?

They also told me that the original Yaqui was only about 1 meter. but I am diverging, sorry .

You are doing wonderfull , keep it up at your pace, and Gracias..

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The remark on Carlota's diamond was extremely interesting.

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Here is some thing else of interest of interest.

The Following newspaper story from the Francisco Call dated November 1st 1901. A claim Tayopa had been found. This alleged discovery was following up on an earlier discovery of a rich mine site in 1859 by a Frenchman called Robert D' Amelie. Once again we have a French connection in the late 1850's Perhaps tales of vast riches in Sonora from French prospectors filtered back to France and as the United States plunged into civil war, France saw an opportunity to grab their own gold rush. But the Mexican people had other ideas of course.



It was George Beebe of Yerba Buena a mine manager claim his site was the legendary Tayopa in reference to the above Newspaper based on the Frenchman claims in 1859. There was a another newspaper with more details on the 1901 claim. The Los Angele's Herald dated November 15 1901.



2 things we can learn from this?

1: The French had interest in the mineral wealth of Sonora for over a Decade before they attempted to place their own puppet ruler in Mexico.

2: Don Jose your comments are supported further as it appears several locations was claimed to be Tayopa and thus registered with the name Tayopa. Thus it would indeed be confusing to try to chase Tayopa through mining registers. In another Newspaper Greene himself also claimed his site to the Be Tayopa. In the following newspaper Los Angele's Herald June 23 1908 just two years before the Mexican Civil war.



To be cont....

Corp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning ACorp Luv, Having my afternoon continuous coffee, join me? you are doing wonderful No wonder he is keeping you to himself.

Here is a little side reference to your post on Greene and Tayopa. It is from the Enginering & Mining Journal 1907. Also one from the Bisbee AZ news from about 1907 - 10 ? . You data is confirming mine, gracias.. keep it up, and remember, simply because in some cases I may have almost duplicate data merely confirms your efficiency.

You have already posted data that I never had before.

Waiting for the end of your last post.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose

I suspect most of what I post will in some part confirm comments you have mentioned in other posts.

The history of search for Tayopa in a long and interesting one. Perhaps me viewing it as a historian I see it more as background influences that influenced the History of events of Sonara. It will help explain why it Tayopa remained lost for so long. And Why earlier searchers failed under such conditions. they too are part of the Tayopa Story.

My boss informed me that you have been writing a book and he said I might prompt you write some more chapters.... Anyway I pleased some of things I find can be of interest.

The Yaqui War has a defining factor of later half of 19th century right up in part to even the end of the Mexican civil war. it appears the native uprising smouldered as miners from United States and french miners before that pushed into Yaqui lands. But it wasn't the only factor either it was tenanture of the land where land owners was gradually pushing them off there land and decline of employment and working conditions in mines and cattle farms in the region.

As Tayopa searchers and mining companies inspired by the much vaunted wealth of gold silver and Copper in Sonora mentioned the newspapers of the 1860's pushed deeper into Sonora during the later half of the 19th century a bitter war erupted.

The Following Newspaper articles highlights some of ferocity of each opposing sides as atrocities was committed by either side.

















You can see by 1905 the Yaqui was making overtures for peace. But that still did not dampen the fires until the whole Yaqui war was overshadowed by the Mexican Civil war. The Yaqui was the masters of hit and run warfare however in facing an ever growing and modernized Mexican Federal army with cannon and Maxim Guns, direct confrontation was disastrous for them. It was perhaps the Mexican Civil war that saved them from extermination.

Such is the history of Sonora converted by many and paid for in blood to achieve it.

All this was happening as American miners took their turn to search for the Legendary Tayopa. Quite a story you have Don Jose.

Corp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning ACorp: You are doing fantastic work. As I once mentioned, "Where -n----ll " were you 20 years ago?? For research naturally sheesh blushing.

As for the Yaqui, I can tell you many stories about them and our fun together --

For instance, in the 60's when the ranchers and gov't were pushing the contraction of Yaqui lands I found a Gov't mil. document and Map, which allowed the Yaqui a strong basis to send a delegation to Mexico city where the Gov't was forced to agree with the boundary claims of the Tribe , but since it would give them parts of Modern Obregon itself, as well as the dam, they compromised by constructing a secondary irrigation system for them. They also showed me several excellent mining properties and mines, one of which still has several of the Mexican miners inside of it's collapsed Portal.

However since the Tribe is formed by seven groups, each with a nominal Chief who never are in agreement, especially with the Mexican gov't, it was/ is impossible to receive permission to mine, however that is fast ending as newer, far better educated Yaqui's - which I encouraged in the background - are now entering into positions of influence, this may change, if so, that Gold mine is foremost in my plans.

As the French were fleeing from Mexico, the officials started sending items of value in mule trains to the Various ports for shipment to France. The Yaqui formed individual bands of opportunity to attack and raid them. In two in particular, I am very interested, but then I am veering off course from Tayopa. -- I still want a pair of those French Lances for my fireplace.

Most of my friends are now dead or dying off, so I presume that the Younger Yaquis do not know of my living with them, sigh.

By an odd coincidence, while I was with them, an author 'J Holden Curry' wrote a book - The hill of the Rooster (Cerro Gallo), a high peak in the center of the Bacatetes - on the Yaqui battles with the Gov't, I gave the tribe a copy of it which they kept, giving Me incorrect credit for authoring it.

They gave me the Bible in Yaqui, which they say was not too badly done.

I know the sierras of the Bacatetes better then the Yaquis he he he . And had proof that Tayopa was NOT in Yaqui territory.

What is fascinating on your posts is that You can give reference to much of your data, while much of mine, while basically the same, is strictly by word of mouth. Far differernt.


Jose

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose

Then I hope some of the info I post will be of great benefit to you when you write your book. Hint, Hint...

One last thing on the Yaqui war...... Just a newspaper story telling in detail the ferocity of some of the atrocities... In the San Francesco Call 13 August 1899 the Following story appeared.



















Sorry for the long article it was cut into pieces...

to be continued....

Corp