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  1. #181
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1167 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    Lamar, Joe, or anyone else,

    Jose has brought up my ABSOLUTE MAIN argument for my belief in Jesuit Mining! WHY was a secret simultaneous arrest warrant necessary for a simple expulsion? This is a point I have argued for many years, and have not gotten a good answer as of yet.

    1. They were not being Killed (no need to secrecy)
    2. They were not being tortured (no need for secrecy)
    3. They were simply being sent back to Europe. Why the secrecy? The only sane reason I can imagine is that Charles III wanted to catch them "with their pants down" (before they had a chance to do something). What something would that be? Before they had a chance to hide their mining activity.

    Best-Mike
    Things are seldom as they seem, especially regarding 'historical' events. Whether 500 years ago or 5 days ago, those who control the media (hand-written documentation in the days of yore, TV news today) establish the 'facts' that the world accepts as 'truth'. Simple conditioning.

    The recent SJ apologists (eg Polzer, Lamar, et al), as archivists, are good soldiers, offering logical, dogmatic 'fact'-based arguements that there was no mining in the New World attributed to the brothers. Those who believe otherwise base their point of view on a substantial amount of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. Lamar is correct in one respect - no 'smoking gun' (ie irrefutabal proof) has been produced to satisfy all. Given the secrecy and unsurpassed brilliance of the SJ operatives of the time, it's questionable that such evidence will be recovered. Therefore, this arguement will continue in a similar direction - circular.













    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  2. #182
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,322
    2705 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Good Morning Springfield: you said--->

    Given the secrecy and unsurpassed brilliance of the SJ operatives of the time, it's questionable that such evidence will be recovered. Therefore, this arguement will continue in a similar direction - circular.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Only if you ignore the data that I have and the fact that I have Tayopa along with the location of their deposit one days east of Taypa in which they left a lot of rolled up paper scrolls and documents, plus the church ornaments of Tayopa.

    I also know exactly where the deposit holding the accumulated metal to finance the take over is..

    I suggest that you read posts no. 176, 180 again. these are as close to legal proofs as can be gotten today..

    In a case involving Law, I would say that I have a 99% probability of a successful conviction.

    And Yes, I certaionly do have more data, but, unfortuately I cannot redlease it unitl I have successfully finished Tyopa.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #183
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,322
    2705 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Morning :

    Gollum: One reason that they failed to find any mines or proof of the planned revolt, is simply that most of the Mission Priests and personel, did not have any mines or Opulence. They actually had no connection other than being Jesuits.

    The story that the Jesuits were mining or planning a revolt quickly died for lack of evidence , simply because they were looking in the wrong place and at the wrong people...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Oro mi buddy: I frankly have no positive idea, but I suspect that many similar spellings of Tayopa developed as other rich mines, or districts, were found it, was assumed that this / threse were Tayopa?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bb: I have a goody for you which I will post both in here and The Lost Dutchamn. Long story here, but it is interesting in light of what you believe .

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  4. #184
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,780
    1031 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Jose,

    "I also know exactly where the deposit holding the accumulated metal to finance the take over is.."

    What "take over" are you talking about?

    "And Yes, I certaionly do have more data, but, unfortuately I cannot redlease it unitl I have successfully finished Tyopa."

    Not saying you don't have the data or "Tyopa".....How would I know?, but surely you realize how many thousands of times that same story has been told by treasure hunters.

    Considering the record of government thieves running Mexico, since day one, how much confidence to you have that you won't end up dead and the local police chief's cousin won't end up owning your mine?

    Take care,

    Joe

  5. #185
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,322
    2705 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Good Mornig CJ my friend: you asked----->

    Not saying you don't have the data or "Tyopa".....How would I know?, but surely you realize how many thousands of times that same story has been told by treasure hunters
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Of course I do, but since this is only a basic, coffee table, type of discussion group , I certainly will not jepoardize the Tayopa, and allied operation, by disclosing too much. I will not post the truth unitl I am finished, sides much of that data will go into the book. "You are just going to have to wait for your autographed copy"
    ================================================== ============

    you posted --->

    Considering the record of government thieves running Mexico, since day one, how much confidence to you have that you won't end up dead and the local police chief's cousin won't end up owning your mine?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    NONE! but, one can only play the cards that are dealt to him. A local cannot touch Tayopa, only a high placed official in the Gov't mining office might. This is precisely why I am soo vague on actual data on Tayopa itself. Losing a few fingernails might encourage me to co-operate though. sigh. In the US this would mean a quick trip to Guantanomo.

    Nothing is sure in this life, except that you will eventually meet the Dutchman.,

    No property, person, mine or business is sure in the US either any more. They are just a bit more subtle up there -- so far. .

    What do you think of the Mayan /Aztex faces carved on the roof of the underground room?

    BB is going to have a field day. hehehe.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  6. #186

    Nov 2006
    1,379
    5 times

    Re: True Spelling

    need more gear .lol
    " have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "

    " a wiseman once told me a wiseman that thinks he knows everything has already failed  because he thinks "

    © the blindbowman ,2007

  7. #187
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,766
    1841 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Greetings friends,

    Blindbowman I was only puzzled as to why you decided to remove your first and second post, thought perhaps there was something there that you decided was letting slip some detail, or that you had lost patience with us. I have changed my mind (and edited posts) myself, frequently enough.

    Gollum wrote:
    They were not being tortured (no need for secrecy)
    According to one Jesuit source, the head of a Jesuit college was indeed tortured. His account is so humorous that I could hardly read the full story, as the Spanish soldiers searched in some quite un-savory places. The fact that the Spanish immediately asked "where is the treasure" in so many instances, then proceeded to search for hidden treasures does help to show that the true reason for expelling the Jesuits had little to do with politicKs, and much to do with suspicions of Jesuit illicit activities in hiding treasures. Some treasure was found, in this particular case some 20,000 pesos, but according to the Jesuits this money belonged to someone else; the Spanish authorities of course did not believe this.

    It is easy enough to understand the Spanish (and Portuguese for that matter) in having such suspicions of the Jesuits. The Crown was well aware of the problems in Portuguese colonies, where the Jesuits were actually protecting the Amerindians from slavers. In one instance a Jesuit priest actually led Amerindians alongside Spanish troops to fight Portuguese slavers in Bolivia, soundly defeating them and driving them out of the province. The apparent opulence and even magnificence of SOME Jesuit missions and colleges certainly would have led anyone (not a Jesuit) who saw them to believe that the Jesuits operating them MUST be highly successful at some kind of income.

    Then we have the English. What should a Spanish king think, when his offer to marry the queen of England is declined, along with a statement made directly to the Spanish ambassador, saying that "so much money is being sent to the Pope that she must put a stop to it"? At first glance, this might be taken as the Spanish government sending money, but it also might raise suspicions that the English were telling him something - that treasure was being shipped on Spanish and Portuguese ships, not necessarily with the knowledge or permission of Spain, but secretly by smuggling. The king might even begin to suspect that the English were not deliberately making war with Spain so much as trying to stop the illegal shipments of money to the Pope, in the process being forced to attack Spanish ships. Smuggling was big business aboard Spanish & Portuguese ships, and highly successful; in some cases corrupt officials might well have been "looking the other way". Put yourself in the position of king of Spain, with several different Church orders of missionaries working in your colonies, hearing of accusations against them (ill-founded or not) hearing such a strange statement from the queen of England, your (sometime) enemy, etc? Would you be SO full of faith in the loyalty of ALL the missionaries, in particular one that has a special vow of obedience to the Pope which outweighs any vow to a king, that you would presume they were innocent?

    Some INDIVIDUAL Jesuits even profited by the work of the English and French pirates/privateers.
    Extract:
    In March 1694 the Jesuit writer, Labat, took part in a Mass at Martinique which was {74} performed for some French buccaneers in pursuance of a vow made when they were taking two English vessels near Barbadoes. The French vessel and its two prizes were anchored near the church, and fired salutes of all their cannon at the beginning of the Mass, at the Elevation of the Host, at the Benediction, and again at the end of the Te Deum sung after the Mass.106 Labat, who, although a priest, is particularly lenient towards the crimes of the buccaneers, and who we suspect must have been the recipient of numerous "favours" from them out of their store of booty, relates a curious tale of the buccaneer, Captain Daniel, a tale which has often been used by other writers, but which may bear repetition. Daniel, in need of provisions, anchored one night off one of the "Saintes," small islands near Dominica, and landing without opposition, took possession of the house of the curé and of some other inhabitants of the neighbourhood. He carried the curé and his people on board his ship without offering them the least violence, and told them that he merely wished to buy some wine, brandy and fowls. While these were being gathered, Daniel requested the curé to celebrate Mass, which the poor priest dared not refuse. So the necessary sacred vessels were sent for and an altar improvised on the deck for the service, which they chanted to the best of their ability. As at Martinique, the Mass was begun by a discharge of artillery, and after the Exaudiat and prayer for the King was closed by a loud "Vive le Roi!" from the throats of the buccaneers. A single incident, however, somewhat disturbed the devotions. One of the buccaneers, remaining in an indecent attitude during the Elevation, was rebuked by the captain, and instead of heeding the correction, replied with an impertinence and a fearful oath. Quick as a flash Daniel whipped out his pistol and shot the buccaneer through the head, {75} adjuring God that he would do as much to the first who failed in his respect to the Holy Sacrifice. The shot was fired close by the priest, who, as we can readily imagine, was considerably agitated. "Do not be troubled, my father," said Daniel; "he is a rascal lacking in his duty and I have punished him to teach him better." A very efficacious means, remarks Labat, of preventing his falling into another like mistake. After the Mass the body of the dead man was thrown into the sea, and the curé was recompensed for his pains by some goods out of their stock and the present of a negro slave.107
    (The Buccaneers in the West Indies in the XVII Century by Clarence Henry Haring METHUEN & CO. LTD. 36 ESSEX STREET W.C. LONDON _First Published in 1910_)

    Are we to assume that no illicit activity on the part of any missionaries, ever reached the ears of the king of Spain?

    Real de Tayopa, the only reason I asked about TOAPA was that I had found a letter, writing about a Spanish military 'entrada' against Seris (if memory serves)which was posted from that point, in the 1670's. The name TOAPA when spoken, has a somewhat similar 'ring' to Tayopa, but could be just coincidental.

    Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

    very truly yours,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  8. #188
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,322
    2705 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Buenas dias Gentlemen: Lamar, you are too quiet, I hope that you haven't taken a vow of silence sniff.

    BB & Cj I have no interest in the cave and spiral steps data, I merly mentioned it as a side anex to the LDM for your general interest.

    Why have we gone soo quiet?

    gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves.

    Let's get to rockin n rolin agan.



    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. The Guarijiros have actually accused me of being a reincarnated Jesuit, sheehs, me with my various vices?
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  9. #189
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,780
    1031 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Jose,

    "gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves."

    Not if they volunteer.....

    The most interesting parts of your story, had to do with his knowing Ron Eagle and a man named Horvaka. That's pretty hard to find, but I did find a father and son with that last name, who took cave diving lessons from a fellow in Maya Riviera down in Mexico. Their instructor had some experience with Mayan......something.

    Considering the story that some of the cave entrances may be underwater in Roosevelt Lake, and the Mayan portion of the story.......With your background I'm sure you can connect the dots.

    Take care,

    Joe



  10. #190
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,766
    1841 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Don Jose de La Mancha wrote:

    p.s. The Guarijiros have actually accused me of being a reincarnated Jesuit, sheehs, me with my various vices?
    Hmm............now why should they get that idea, seeing that you have found numerous Jesuit-Tayopa documents, and Tayopa, and have stated repeatedly your saintly nature? Perhaps they were aware of your friendship with father Polzer? Probably just some WILD idea?

    Real de Tayopa wrote:
    Sigh it is an extremely fascinating part of history, on one hand a group of dedicated individuals for the good of the population, on the other, a group dedicated to furthering the Society's advancement and power, yet the two never had contact with each other..
    Jesus said, "It is to those [who are worthy of My] mysteries that I tell My mysteries. Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." (G.T. :62)


    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #191
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
    Modded SD2000 / Fisher FX-3 / Fisher Gemini / Schiebel MIMID
    4,501
    1581 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: True Spelling

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Jose,

    "gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves."

    Not if they volunteer.....
    But you'd better get a signed agreement! With the way people are getting arrested and sued, you need backup! Just look at Rick James!

    Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  12. #192

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    10 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Dear real de Tayopa;
    A vow of silence, my friend? That would be the Trappists, I think. Strictly as an aside, no Roman Ctholic religious order, throughout their various long histories, has ever required a vow of silence. I am reminded of a story of a young notevate nun, whom, upon taking her vows, also took a rather unique vow to her particular Order, which was that she was only permitted to speak 2 words every five years, and only to the Mother Superior. The first five years go by and Mother Superior calls the nun into her office, whereupon the nun utters her two words. "Bed hard!" Mother Superior replies, "The bed which you sleep upon was so thoughtfully by handcrafted by the Augustian monks just down the road from us, over 200 years ago. It's constructed in such a way to remind us of our Lords' suffering and so, it's not meant to provide one with comfort."

    And so, another five years passes and the nun enters Mother Superiors' office and states "Food terrible!" Mother Superior replies, "Yes, the food is terrible and it's been this way since Sister Mary Agnes passed on. She was the only one of us who was a student in the finer culniary arts and until such time as we are find a replacement for her, the food shall remain the same as it now".

    And so, another five years goes by and the nun enters Mother Superiors' office once more and proclaims "I quit!". Mother Superior replies, "It's probably just as well that you do quit. All you've ever done since you've been here is just *****, *****, *****!"

    And so, never let it be stated that us old school Roman Catholics have no sense of humor, my friend.

    As to my whereabouts, I was pursuing more immediate and mundane tasks, but I am now free once more to take up this scholarly, yet highly highly speculative, discussion. I beg your indulgence in this regard and I pray my absence was of no great import.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  13. #193
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,322
    2705 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Hola Mi Extimado Amigo Lamar: You said-->

    "I beg your indulgence in this regard and I pray my absence was of no great import".
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It was, in my frustration and fear, I was forced to go turn to drink and the flesh pots to assuage my fears and doubts.. My forced lapse into sin will be added to your account...

    Since ORO and gullum are already beyond redemption ------

    Don Jose de La Mancha (ex Saint)

    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  14. #194
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,766
    1841 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Real de Tayopa wrote:
    Since ORO and gullum are already beyond redemption ------


    Iesous epo autos ego eimi anastasis kai zoe pisteuo eis eme kan apothnesko zao
    John 11:25, and remember
    Mark 4:28

    Vaya con Dios mi amigos,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  15. #195
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,780
    1031 times

    Re: True Spelling

    Mike,

    [Let's start with a quote from Professor W. Wrightson who was the General Agent for the Aztec Syndicate Mining Group. He was exploring the Santa Cruz River Valley looking for good mining sites. Now, I would think that a Mining Syndicate General Agent would be pretty well versed in most all aspects of mining operations. Pretty obvious to me. Let's hear what he says about one of the things he found when he visited the Mission Ruins at Tumacacori in 1860 (it was long abandoned by then):

    "To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used."

    Furnaces with slag are not indicative of lime or brick burning pits as stated by the NPS (National Park Service).]

    ----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------

    Outside of the granary is a large courtyard which was the center of daily life at Tumacácori Mission.

    Here a square of buildings surrounded a plaza where there once was an ironworker’s shop, a carpentry shop, a weaving room, a leather shop and a grain grinding mill.

    Tumacacori is the site of a Franciscan mission that was built in the late 1700s. It takes its name from an earlier mission site founded by Father Eusebio Kino in 1691, which is on the east side of the river south of the National Park.

    Lime plaster was used to protect the adobe from moisture, while still allowing it to breath. Tons of raw material in the form of limestone boulders had to be brought to the mission for processing so that a coat of plaster, often more than two inches thick, could be applied to the walls. Like the timbers in the roof, limestone had to be transported some thirty miles from the Santa Rita Mountains to the east. This was most likely accomplished by means of ox carts, traveling through some thirty miles of the most dangerous Apache country in the world.

    ----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------

    It seems to me, that a little historical fact and one hell of a lot of wishful thinking has gone into the furnace/lime kiln/slag conclusions.

    First of all, the description of the mission and it's adjacent buildings is of the Franciscan Church, built after the expulsion of the Jesuits. Perhaps you should be looking for Franciscan treasure......

    Take care,

    Joe


 

 
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