True Spelling

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning MY Amiog Lamar, You posted ----->

And so, without so much as a solitary remaining emerald example from Mexico, we may conclusively decide that those early descriptions of the native population of Mexico wearing emeralds is just so much fabrication.

Chromium or vanadium does not tend to occur naturally with beryl "in any large quanitity in Mexico", my friend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In any large quantity, agreed however -- This was in answer to my posting of a page in Mineralogy, hover this addition is from a gem id site, easily found by yourself. in which is found the following -->

"Emerald - Emeralds are found in Mexico. Two main sources are the mines in Guerrero and Vera Cruz. Emeralds found there have a tendency toward lighter shades and are clearer than those found in other countries. The stones have lighter hues and the crystals are phantomed with a transparent interior and a saturated exterior.

Emeralds that are found in Guerrero are saturated dark green. They have a visible termination of their interior color saturation and exterior transparency. The highly saturated emeralds are the most elegant"
================================================== ===============

CJ you posted --->

Lamar is correct when he states there are no native emeralds from Mexico. He is, however, wrong when he includes all of North America in his claim.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI, see above post. In any event, we are being reduced to nit picking and losing track.

Don Jose de La Mancha

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning again Lamar : You posted -->

Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of "St. Ignacio of Tayopa," and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree, however you are not allowing for a series of copies starting with perhaps a faded and stained one in which some of the letters can also easily be misinterpreted due to penmenship. I have documents in which it is nearly impossible to distinguish between various letters.

T, P & L at times are easily mistaken, so are others, due to the flourishing penmenship in those days. So it would be normal to misinterpret the letters if one was looking for data on Tayopa, or from simple negligence.------

T a y o P a
L o y o L a

The above is Curious, no? Coincidence?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
I very respectfully tend to disagree with whomever penned the statement that:

"Emeralds are mostly found in Mexico. Two main sources are the mines in Guerrero and Vera Cruz. Emeralds found there have a tendency toward lighter shades and are clearer than those found in other countries. The stones have lighter hues and the crystals are phantomed with a transparent interior and a saturated exterior"

This is a complete and TOTAL fabrication and it in no WAY can be construed as having even the tiniest grain of truth. The largest current emerald workings are located in Muzo, Colombia, where I have visited many times in the past, followed by Zambia and Zembabwe, Africa. The region of the Gulf Coast where Vera Cruz lies is known as the Emerald Coast, but only because the waters there tend to be very green, due to the very high amounts of silicia, formed as galacial flour and deposited there.

Whoever wrote that *article* stating that emeralds are, or were in the recent past, mined in either Vera Cruz of Guerrero is either badly misinformed, not knowledgable where his emerald stock is originating from, or is a con artist. I've been to Vera Cruz many times and being a certified gemologist, both diamonds and colored stones, I would not pass up the oppurtunity to view some local rough for possible purchases. I've made several past purchases from the 3 mines in Muzo, Colombia and even procured one or two small emerald packages from Brazil, but I have never heard of any mineral activity originating in either Guerrero or Vera Cruz, Mexico.

Furthermore, none of my gemology volumes lists Mexico as being either a major OR a minor source of gem quality beryl. Once again, the caveat against using the Internet as a sole source of reference material can lead one to false conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------

Cactusjumper wrote:

Quote
My guess is that Azmula may be the first to provide that kind of evidence. Even so, it has taken him years to dig it up. If any of you come with a pile of Franciscan slag to prove your point, and I am still alive, I won't be nodding my head in sheepish approval. If you come with the goods, my applause will be as loud as anyone's.

Is any of that unreasonable?

Your prediction re: Azmula may well be correct; it is not my own mission in life to prove the Jesuits involvement, beyond our discussion here, perhaps Azmula has taken this as a ‘mission’. Your example of a pile of Franciscan slag is not a good one to make the point, for no one can PROVE the slag found near the Guevavi nor the Tumacacor (original, NOT the later Franciscan) is of Franciscan OR Jesuit origins. No one can prove just who/whom left those slag piles, however in the case of the Guevavi mission, we know that the Franciscans were only occupying the mission for a period of two years, compared with nearly 76 years it was possessed by the Jesuit order. The slag is circumstantial evidence, not incontrovertible evidence. Or are you now saying that the slag is DEFINTELY of Franciscan origins?

----------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------

I believe you are misreading your own, and Mike's "evidence".

"....no one can PROVE the slag found near the Guevavi nor the Tumacacor".

You have added "near" and joined Guevavi and Tumacacori together for the "slag" pile. Your best bet here, is to read the two (2) separate histories of Guevavi and Tumacacori.

I suggest you go back to the site that Mike provided and read the entire write-up. The buildings being described belong to the Tumacacori site and not Guevavi, and yes......that does make them Franciscan.

We are discussing Jesuit mining in the New World and the proof of that activity. As Jose has assured us, Jesuit mining of Tayopa is a major part of his conclusions as to what he has found. We are looking for any supporting evidence that such mining took place. What has been offered as proof, is not Jesuit.

That is my opinion, based on a close reading of the "evidence".

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/o..._tuma/sec1.htm

Please explain where I have gone wrong and what I have missed here.

One last point: Slag was used in the plaster applied to the walls of the buildings:

"The outside walls of the church were finished with a double coat of lime plaster. The lime was obtained by burning stone which can be found in the vicinity of the mission. Above the offset line, or on approximately the upper half of the walls, the plaster was floated smooth and left with out decoration, but on the lower half of the walls a peculiar form of decoration was used. Fragments of brick and black slag were crushed until the pieces were about the size of grains of corn. Before the plastered surface of the wall had hardened, the workmen went over it, slapping half a handful of these red and black pebbles into the soft plaster at intervals of about a foot in regular lines which ran vertically, diagonally, and in a horizontal direction. The black and red mixture makes an interesting decoration in the white lime plaster."

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Peeps: First CJ--------->

As Jose has assured us, Jesuit mining of Tayopa is a major part of his conclusions as to what he has found. We are looking for any supporting evidence that such mining took place.
What has been offered as proof, is not Jesuit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope it hasn't been, nor will any more be posted until I have my permits. So if you want definitive proof, get the gov't, or the Jesuits, to cracking. However, I will discuss any other data that may be posted in here unless it comes too close to --X.
================================================== ============

Lamar my friend, I will definitely concede that Mexico never was a major producer of Emeralds, but I will not concede that she never had any. Are the Iron based Emeralds valuable yet?

Near here there are large deposits of Aquamarines of different colors. The Indians think that they are Emeralds, but this is easily discounted without destroying the hopes of the Indians.

They also have small Rubies near by in a placer area, most are too small to be of commercial value as Jewelry.

I had an Amethyst deposit for a while, but gave it up because the matrix was too hard, but the Quality was excellent. There were a few red Garnets there also.

As I mentioned, I had an Opal mine here, it is in a blue / grey base, with green and Blue colors, no red. but very beautiful.

There are many many jewelry class minerals here, including Lapis Lazuli in commercial grades. My , deceased father in law had a spot up on the nearby mt where he said there were many many crystals different colors in the loose soil. He was always going to show me the area, but somehow, we never managed to get together, now it is too late sniff.

No, Mexico does have her share of gem materiel, some of which are very high comercial quality and quantity.

However, we are strayng from the origional subject and purpose," how extensvely did the Jesuits work Tayopa", and why?..


Don Jose de La Mancha

[Ed T]

Well People,

Due to unforeseen circumstances I will not be able to take the trip to Mexico that I have been planning for quite some time...My dad past away on the 3rd of December and I have had to take care of his final arrangements...Maybe next year I will be able to take the trip..

Ed T

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Lamar wrote:

I would suspect the letter to be a forgery from the single statement in the text:

"amounting to seven or eight thousand livres"

Your accusation is quite out of place, the source is from the Jesuits themselves, available online from several locations. The French monetary unit “livre” was still in use in 1763, as can be proven by court documents in the legal case against the Jesuits of France.

Lamar wrote:

To continue forward, I am correct in my prior statement that the name of St. Ignacious of Loyola was NEVER used in regards to another place name. If one were to read my previous statement with care, then it would become obvious that the point I was attempting to make was that Saints are ONLY associated with their respective places of birth or death, but NEVER to another locale

Then you are now claiming that the Jesuits own records of their efforts in New France, which included a mission named MISSION ST. IGNATIUS (located at Michilimacinac) are either erroneous, which would be quite surprising since these are letters written BY the Jesuits working in those very missions in New France, or that the whole of the record is a forgery.

Lamar wrote:

Next, the titles Fray, Friar and Brother are NOT used interchangeably, nor have they ever been.

Then I must conclude that either you have not researched many Jesuit documents dating to the 1600s, or that you are now claiming that any and all Jesuit documents that are found to include such references, with a Jesuit referring to another Jesuit as “FRERE” or “FRIAR” or “BROTHER” are all spurious. In this event, then I must state by this standard, there ARE no records from the Jesuits of the 1600s.

Lamar wrote:

Dear Real de Tayopa;
The page from the book which you so thoughtfully posted for us (and I do thank you for your efforts!) states that common beryl can be found in Mexico, which is entirely true, however common beryl is colorless and can be found in large abundance in many places in the world.<snip>

Lamar my friend you are mistaken on this subject, Beryl; I understand that your reply was directed to our mutual friend Real de Tayopa, but according to my geologic books and gemstone books Beryl comes in a virtual rainbow of colors, and is only called “emerald” when it is of GEM QUALITY. Colorless beryl is not the definition of beryl, for in this case it is known as Goshenite; a gemologist could further define the difference between a GEM of beryl which would then be known by its’ gem name (eg emerald) or of non-gem quality, which is then known as simply “beryl”. A short but fairly accurate description is online at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl

Lamar wrote:

<snip – a discussion of how valuable emeralds were in colonial times, how any found in Mexico would be still in our possession etc edited for the sake of brevity> …And so, without so much as a solitary remaining emerald example from Mexico, we may conclusively decide that those early descriptions of the native population of Mexico wearing emeralds is just so much fabrication.

My friend Lamar you do seem have a penchant for making SWEEPING statements, which are so inviting to ‘pick apart’. You do not really mean what I am getting from this post do you? Have you read anything of the trade networks and routes of pre-Columbian America? If you have, how can you make the conclusion that emeralds from Colombia are “too far away” to have ended up in Mexico? Would you like me to post some online examples of maps and articles on pre-Columbian trade networks and routes?

From your repeated statements and stances, it is becoming readily apparent even to such a dull wit as my own that you seem to have quite a personal bias, a tendency to dismiss anything and everything that might possibly point to any sort of Jesuit activity in mining or handling treasures. I have no wish to alienate your friendship or offend your beliefs, so would happily drop the subject should you so desire. I do respectfully disagree with you, on many points we have covered thus far; however a fair number of the ‘sweeping’ statements you have posted could be taken as misleading to some of our readers who are not posting.

Cactusjumper wrote:

You have added "near" and joined Guevavi and Tumacacori together for the "slag" pile. Your best bet here, is to read the two (2) separate histories of Guevavi and Tumacacori.

My friend it is you that are in error, for in a past post I included the statement of a local rancher who said there were slag piles near the original Jesuit mission church of Tumacacori, he did not mention any such slag near Guevavi, this was reported by OTHER sources. There are TWO separate and distinct reported slag piles, one being near Guevavi, the other near the OLD JESUIT church of Tumacacori. I have indeed read every history of both Guevavi and Tumacacori that I was able to find, as well as numerous other sources such as those mentioned earlier.

Real de Tayopa wrote:

However, we are strayng from the origional subject and purpose," how extensvely did the Jesuits work Tayopa", and why?..

I agree this discussion has drifted very far off-topic, the result of some sweeping statements dismissing every report of any kind of Jesuit mining activity as false and bordering on libelous. Hence those who are convinced the Jesuits were in fact operating mines (which could have been “owned” by the Church, thus freeing the Jesuits from any stain of “ownership”) have been goaded into posting numerous responses to show that there IS good reason to believe the Jesuits were in fact involved in mining in the New World. No one doubts they were mining in the Old World, but for some reason it is somehow a “stain” on their honor to admit to it in the New. In fact these vigorous denials of everything only serves to cast doubts upon their stance, when so many circumstantial evidences can be shown, including the statement put forth by a Jesuit, describing how an Indian refused to show the location of a secret silver mine, despite the promises of the missionary.

I have no doubt that Tayopa was a Jesuit operation, based on what I have seen; if someone could show me documents that had the titles to the various mines were held by people other than the Catholic church or the Society of Jesus (Regimente Militante) I would be quite willing to alter my views on Tayopa.

Ed, my condolences on the loss of your father, I am sorry to hear that.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

[Oroblanco]

Postscript: concerning emeralds reported found in Mexico:

French Researchers Find Way to Trace Emeralds' Origins

A new source of emeralds was opened up when the Spanish, after much torture and protracted fighting, discovered the Colombian mines that were the source of the emeralds found in Mexico and Peru.
Dr. Giuliani tested a smuggled emerald -- it was not listed on the manifest -- salvaged recently from the Spanish treasure galleon Nuestra Senora de Atocha, which foundered off Key West in 1622. The oxygen isotope test showed that the emerald came from the Tequendama mine of the Muzo district of Colombia.
Having gained the Colombian mines, the Spanish started to develop buyers for emeralds and found considerable interest among the rulers of India, Persia and Turkey.
''So sultans, shahs and maharajahs were the principal market,'' said Fred Ward, a gemologist and author of the book ''Emeralds'' (Gem Book Publishers, 1996).
The Spanish at first shipped the emeralds from Spain and then sent them via the Philippines. In India, the Philippines was long believed to be the stones' source of origin, Mr. Ward said.

Just wanted to clarify that emeralds reported found by Coronado and other early Spanish explorers in Mexico were not “spurious” nor figments of their imagination, but had originated in distant Colombia.

Your friend,
Oroblanco

[Cubfan64]

Well People,

Due to unforeseen circumstances I will not be able to take the trip to Mexico that I have been planning for quite some time...My dad past away on the 3rd of December and I have had to take care of his final arrangements...Maybe next year I will be able to take the trip..

Ed T

I'm really sorry to hear about your families loss Ed.

[lamar]

Dear EdT;
Your father shall be in my prayers, my friend. If there is any way I may be of assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Ed T]

Thank you all for your kindness...I was really looking forward to going down there this year too. My father in law was planning on taking me to a place where there are drawings on some rocks. He has done a lot of traveling down south. Believe it or not, he was once a horse and mule trader down there. He talks about how he used to go to La Paz to buy horses to take them all the way to Saltillo to sell. That is quite a trip if you ask me. Most of his family tell me that he knows quite a bit of territory as if it were the back of his hand.

Maybe next year will be better...I guess that the old saying, "Y si Dios quiere" meant that it was not meant to be...

Thanks again,
Ed T

[gollum]

You and your family have all my sympathy. It must be very difficult right now.

Best-Mike

[the blindbowman]

Well People,

Due to unforeseen circumstances I will not be able to take the trip to Mexico that I have been planning for quite some time...My dad past away on the 3rd of December and I have had to take care of his final arrangements...Maybe next year I will be able to take the trip..

Ed T

it could be worse Ed , both the people in my life that past away sent me way , they knew i could feel what was happening and they did not want share these feelings with me .....

love can hert more then know . i saved two lives by being with other people but could not save the ones i wanted to... they would not let me save them .. why ED do you know or under this ...?

did you get a chance to say good bye , post his picture and i will do a reading for you if you wish .. ...he wanted you to go . you know that dont you ...then something about setting around watching TV and nothing really on anymore ... did he have something wrong with the left side of his mouth...? a burning feeling ..just on the left side ...

you take ED

[Ed T]

Blindbowman,

He had been in bad shape for quite some time, bad heart and all. He had a heart attack back in 05 I believe and he had not been the same since. We had been trying to get him to go to the doctor or hospital for the last two months, but he was stubborn and refused to go. In a way I feel that he is better off now, due to the fact that he is no longer suffering. He also past away in the nite in his sleep I feel that it is for the best seeing that he did pass in his sleep.

At times I do feel that maybe I should take the trip. I have already taken care of his final wishes. He had told me that he wanted to be cremated without a public viewing. We did have a family viewing though, and one of our mother's close friends showed up too. My mother had already past away back in 04, and now that my father has passed, I feel pretty sad.

I still have 3 brothers and a sister here in town who are sharing in the grieving process. So, it is not that bad.

Maybe I should just get on with my life and take the trip to Mexico. At least that way I will be able to occupy my mind with other thoughts. The beer is always nice and cold in Mexico and I usually always drink Pacifico and Tecate Light, that is one way to drown my sorrows. My wife tells me it would probably be best if we do go.

I will keep you all informed.

Ed T

P.s. I am not sure if he had something wrong with his mouth, though it did appear that he did have a small amount of drool coming out of it at the time that we found him blindbowman.

[Cubfan64]

Blindbowman,

He had been in bad shape for quite some time, bad heart and all. He had a heart attack back in 05 I believe and he had not been the same since. We had been trying to get him to go to the doctor or hospital for the last two months, but he was stubborn and refused to go. In a way I feel that he is better off now, due to the fact that he is no longer suffering. He also past away in the nite in his sleep I feel that it is for the best seeing that he did pass in his sleep.

At times I do feel that maybe I should take the trip. I have already taken care of his final wishes. He had told me that he wanted to be cremated without a public viewing. We did have a family viewing though, and one of our mother's close friends showed up too. My mother had already past away back in 04, and now that my father has passed, I feel pretty sad.

I still have 3 brothers and a sister here in town who are sharing in the grieving process. So, it is not that bad.

Maybe I should just get on with my life and take the trip to Mexico. At least that way I will be able to occupy my mind with other thoughts. The beer is always nice and cold in Mexico and I usually always drink Pacifico and Tecate Light, that is one way to drown my sorrows. My wife tells me it would probably be best if we do go.

I will keep you all informed.

Ed T

P.s. I am not sure if he had something wrong with his mouth, though it did appear that he did have a small amount of drool coming out of it at the time that we found him blindbowman.

I'm sure you're father's in a better place now and odds are pretty good he wouldn't want everyone spending too much time grieving over his passing, in fact he would probably encourage you to do something interesting and exciting like you had been planning.

In alot of ways he'll probably even be making the trip with you

Take care

[Ed T]

Cubfan,

Believe it or not, he had made the trip down there with me in the 90's. That was when I saw what I consider a guerigo tree and learned of the one that had fallen. He got to see the site that I call Topira or Topiza. While we were down there he made a few friends and had a great time. He had also been looking forward to my going. In a way I do feel that he would want me to go.

I will let you all know if it is a go within the next two weeks.

Ed T

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Ed, I have just found your post about your father, I am soo sorry, but don't let that stop any plans that you two may have made to come to Mexico. As a result of my infamous experiments, I have found that something continues to exist after death. He may just want you to do so.

For want of a better word, one could call it a soul. It is intelligent, but for some reason we cannot communicate. However, in many ways it may be able to let you know that it is still around for a while.

My dogie and I were very close. After she died, she kept pulling the covers off of me and shaking the bed for about a month. She would also move or rattle her food dish. In many little ways she let me know that she was still there. She weighed about 75#. .

Many others have had the same experience with a loved one or animal, I wasn't unique.. Look around, and try to be aware of anything subtle or unusual.

We may meet in Mexico one of these days.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[cactusjumper]

Ed,

So sorry to hear of your father's passing. Our prayers are with you and your family.

Having just lost my dad in February, I know how hard it can be.

If I may, I would like to offer a small bit of advise: In going forth with your life, consider what your father would, and is wishing for you right now. Live every day to its fullest.

Take care,

Joe

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"My friend Lamar you do seem have a penchant for making SWEEPING statements, which are so inviting to ‘pick apart’. You do not really mean what I am getting from this post do you? Have you read anything of the trade networks and routes of pre-Columbian America? If you have, how can you make the conclusion that emeralds from Colombia are “too far away” to have ended up in Mexico? Would you like me to post some online examples of maps and articles on pre-Columbian trade networks and routes?"

Well......When you're right.....you're right.

"Just wanted to clarify that emeralds reported found by Coronado and other early Spanish explorers in Mexico were not “spurious” nor figments of their imagination, but had originated in distant Colombia."

Another correct statement. You are on a run, my friend.

Take care,

Joe

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
By all means, my friend, please feel free to provide proof positive that those emeralds described in Coronados' letter to Mendoza came from Colombia, and at the same time, please provide incontroversial proof of the pre-Columbian trade routes. I made a statement that the emeralds which supposedly came from the Aztec empire in all reality came from Columbia and Venezuela. The Spanish Conquistadors knew this fact full well and they were trying to tell the noblity of Spain something which just wasn't true.

This started centuries of speculation that Mexcio had fabulous lost or hidden emerald mines. By the mid 1950s, Mexico sub-strata had been completely mapped by petroleum exploration teams, and NO substantial beryl deposits had been discovered, nor had any lost or hiddengold or silver mines been rediscovered as yet. Virtually every square inch of Mexicos' vast sub-strata has been explored in the quest for black gold and natural gas and the methods employed have been costly in terms of technology used, manpower and time expendures.

I made a statement that emeralds are not native to Mexico in viable commercial quantities and so now, because Coronado was trying to pull the wool over Ferdinand and Isabellas' eyes, I make sweeping statements? The emeralds did not come to Mexico via Columbia by pre-Columbian traders, they came to Mexcio by the Conquistadors. The Conquistadors didn't even bother accquiring the stones then having them mounted in Aztec jewelry, rather they took manufactured native Colombian jewlery and then tried to pass it off as being from the Aztec empire. What they were doing was simple. They were lying to the noblity of Spain in roder to recieve greater funding. I've mentioned many times in the past that the Conquistadors were men of disreputable characters and this holds quite true. What the Conquistadors did has been known about for years.

If you feel that colorless beryl is not generally referred to as common beryl then I might suggest you take up your argument with the GIA.

The livre ceased to exist after 1667 and the franc became the official monetary unit of France, after which the livre enjoyed a short revival until the franc once more totally abolished the lived in 1795. Look it up for yourself my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR