True Spelling

[lamar]

Dear blindbowman;
That is quite an interesting read, I must say. If the tale is valid then there were definitely be supporting documentation of it, especially the tithes to the Vatican, the Royal Fifth to the Crown, the name of the priest and the date of his arrival, and also the reward offered by the Church. The document inventorying the treasure trove will be of particular importance, since this one document can validate the entire treasure horde, and as such, increase the value of the entire lot many, many times it's spot value.
Do you see where I am going with this, my friend? Instead of squandering precious time tramping around the hills searching for something which may or may not exist, the time could be much better spent researching the yarn to find out if it has any validity.
If the story is valid, then yes, by all means, conduct a THOROUGH search and don't stop searching till the treasure has been recovered and stowed safely in a vault. For surely a lost treasure horde of this size and value would have been recorded SOMEWHERE! And not just recoreded in one archive, but in several archives. The reason why I say this is because if the lost treasure has been logged in the archives, then you have removed a HUGE question mark from the equation, namely, is it a true tale, or just another treasure story? Once that question mark is safely out of the way, then there can only remain two possiblilities:
1) The treasure is intact and waiting to be discovering
2) The treasure has already been discovered and was plundered at some time in the past, and none of it remains, or only a portion of it remains.
If the tale is fact a true one then I'd be all over it like a cheap suit, without pause or hesitation my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[the blindbowman]

now you know why i planed expedition 3 , one of the sites i found fits this legend word for word as well as its topo graphic location ....the tail is in full somewhere i have read the full story before and the tayoa treasure trove list .matches this treasure trove , its one of the reasons i could not explan why the tayopa has anything what so ever to do with the sites i was woking on . yet in the reseach we find the word Tayopa spelled out twice on two diffrent stone tablets the odd fact few here now is those two sites are two of the 3 sites we found translated on the stones ...and i do agree larmar

in fact i am counting on the facts to prove what and who placed this treasure trove there and when ,,...


if this story is true and the bodies of spanish and jesuits were put back in the cave is would prove that if i find spanish and jeusits remains in one of these 3 location that the most likely sorce would be this legend thus makeing the Tayopa mine it self in the supersititions and not in mexico ...

the other fact this location could have been known as san rey....but who knows how many names it has had threw its vanishing past ..

but yes DNA would most likely prove evidence if this location has those remain still in tact .....it would in fact prove i had found tayopa far from where others beleived it was ..

at this piont in time i can only say we have found 3 sites dirrectly pionted out by the stones them selfs ..and one site dose in fact match this legend ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Gentlemen: No oro, I am not yet in a position to release the specifics etc, however, I will drop a few hints.

A) No-one has seen fit to address my associates audience with the then no. 2 of the Jesuit society in Rome.

B) I have posted many times that the mission Jesuits were basically just that.. They were hardworking, dedicated men, at times subsisting on dried grasshoppers etc. if necessary, while building their missions to be a self sustaining entity. They were not involved in mining as such , except for a bit of sporadic opportunistic work. The mission at Baroyeca was an example..

However, there was a shadow group that DID engage in mining. They were a separate group and had no contact with the Mission Jesuit, but were dedicated to increasing the Jesuit coffers and influence in Rome. While the Society was under the Pope's orders, the individual Jesuit member only had a sworn allegiance to the Society itself.

This shadow group did not openly show any connection to the Jesuit society, they dressed in the normal civilian clothing.

Because of the type of operations that this shadow group were involved with, plus certain delicate "political / international intrigues" , all correspondence was in a separate sector, a bit like our present "need to know" division, one which can legally deny access to even the President or members of Congress. Obviously these documents are still held in this category for the Societies benefit, not History's. You will NOT find them in the Vatican's files.

As for shipping records of precious metal etc., to Rome, forget it also. They fall under the same category a the basic mining operations did. Never heard of a Corporation owning, or arranging their own transportation?. They would be extremely foolish indeed if they had used Gov't transportation to transport illegal metal to Rome , not Spain in any quantity no?

C) The Americas were governed by two separate bodies. One for North America, and the other for South America. Many of their rulings were completely different. In North America a Jesuit that assumed ownership of a mine by what ever means, was supposed to eventually dispose of it, but the definition of time was sooo broad ---. might one speculate that a few bars of Gold might influence their decisions? snicker.©@

I will post more later, this is iust food for thought.

DonJ ose de La Mancha

p.s A bit of misc data for whomever it might concern.

www.explorers.org

 

[the blindbowman]

read de tayopa stated "They were not involved in mining as such " i agree real de tayopa , even this story in question stated the jesuits chruch was across from the mine so spanish could pray cose by it never stated the jesuit took part in the mineing it self . just that they befriended the spanish and at times were not happy about the way the indains were inslaved or they just did not adress the topic at the time in the open ... this makes me wonder if this was why Kino left the area and move to southern cal.

i feel that if kino was part of this event ,he may have played a part in getting other priest killed nd that would be a good reason to get out dodge...lol

this would be IMHO but who ever the jesuits were as lamar stated here is most likely some kind of data to back this up somewhere hiden away in chruch records ...or spanish records but i beleive if this mine was as rich as we are led to beleive most likely those records would have been very well protected or coded to keep them safe ...

i gues the piont here comes down to the fact if what i have found is a AZtec mine , is that mine the Tayopa . and if it is , what has real de found . i am no stating it is tayopa only that it dose fit these legends other then being in mexico it self , but at one piont parts of AZ were part of the northern sonora.and dose look to be part of the area on the 1539 map of Marcos de Niza's journey north ...if ray dillman's reseach stands up . then the only way the masonic wax stamp could have gotten in the gravesite was on or before the years of 1519, the next question would be in the years 1519 or how much sooner did it get there , the simbolic of the masonic design he found was not used in the 1500's . it was from the ealryer order of christ not the 1500's , this would tell us it is from the 1279-1325 time line . that would agree with what i have been saying our findings are pionting to ...were these effects put in the graves to misled others away from the real locations as i have pionted out in my reseach this is in fact what we have been finding as we uncover new data ...


is the locations the common theard that holds these legends in place ,i know far more then i can say at this piont and yet the idea that the stones did led dillman to Utah the same way they led me there at frist is evidence of a common under standing of the path of the simbolics in question ...

this dose suport somewhat my reseach and Ray dillmans , two legally blindmen who would have figerd that would happend ....lol

 

[the blindbowman]

let me add a few common facters , Ray Dillman and i share about the stones .

we both agree the stones were Aztec or made from Aztec codec .or shortly after the AZtec ..and that the locations were secert places of the AZtec and did hold the location of the montezuma treasure trove ...

we both agree it is under the 9 ring simbolic ...we see 3 location dots found at the Utah site and i state openly there are 3 sites pionted pout by the stones . , we both agree what dillman found , a sacifice stone a heart stone and the simbolic 9 ring
. dillman did not finish his work and if he had he would have known the 9 spining rings simbolic stands for the wind , and i found the place where wind stroms are born .. and yes for dillman to find the 9 ring simbolic there tells me what i have been doing is right and he would have known very soon that the treasure was not in Utah ...

those 3 simbolics are there for a reason . each Aztec city or temple had the same 3 simbolics . a heart stone a sacifice stone and the wind simbolic .. it was a way to relate to there past home land of AZtlan ..

to copy these secert place where ever they went ...

now i can not tell you 100% that tayopa is at one of those locations pionted out by the stones . but Aztlan is .

i know the Aztec send people south and then went north to the supersititions and then sent 3 groups of people one north west to Utah . one north in to the grand cayon ,and one north east . to mis led the spanish away from were they had placed the treasure .....it worked

this is why dillman found the sites in Utah . because that is what they wanted people to think and find , dillman was not spanish but cortes when to the east , dillman went west ,i didnt fall for that trick ..

do you know what dillman found at the Utah site ...?

 

[gollum]

Hey Lamar,

I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying your position of Jesuit Mining activities. I am a little confused. First, you state:

I most generally discount suppositions and fanciful theories pertaining to the involvement of the Jesuits when it comes to mining minerals in the New World or anywhere else, or about them being Old World merchants. I will continue to discount these notions until I have in my hands actual FACTS. If there is ONE official document in ONE archive ANYWHERE which states unequiviably by a RELIABLE source about the Jesuits operating and managing mines, THEN I will believe it.

Then you state this:

To state that the Jesuits owned and operated mines is a ludicrious statement. Of course Jesuit priests were mine administrators. It's part of the reason why they were to the New World in the first place! The Jesuits soon became administrators of the colonies in the New World and they were charged with an entire host of secular duties and activities, namely overseeing and administering plantations and mines. One needs to remember that the Renascence period did not reach Spain and Portugal until at least the late 1700s and that the colleges and universities were all manned by Roman Catholic clergy and scholars. The Jesuits in the New World were practically the only ones who could read, write and perform mathmatical calculations therefore, by default they became the overseers in the New World. Asking a Spanish nobleman to adminster a plantation or a mine would be akin to asking a first grader to design a nuclear weapon, this is how uneducated the nobility was during the colonization of the New World.
So yes, there were Jesuits priests and bishops who were ordered by the Crowns of Spain and Portugal to act as administers and accountants in the New World. Most of them were able to increase annual productions through the applied use of modern scientific procedures (modern during that time, of course) and through the use of European agricultural and mining methods.
In the missions, Jesuits were, and still are, expected to be self-supporting and to such ends they plant crops, grow grapes for wine, keep bees and and perform an entire gamut of other things. Work and manual labor is NOT against the code of ethics of the Jesuits or any other Roman Catholic organization, in fact it is EXPECTED for both the clergy and the secular population to work. Hard work is the pathway to God. This was, is, and will ALWAYS shall be one of the basic tenets of the Roman Catholic faith. Were the Jesuits able to mine ores and precious gems? Yes, they were on a limited basis so they could remain self-supporting. So were the Francisians and the Dominicans able to do the very same thing, which they did.
In fact, the first US mining laws were adopted from Spanish mining laws, which were written by, you guessed it, a Jesuit scholar! The Jesuits also taught the use of crop rotation and they incorporated the first use of pesticides in Europe and the New World. They also believed, however in giving a man a fair wage for a fair days' work and THIS is when the troubles started with the colonists.
The Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores and the colonial settlers who followed were THIEVES! This much should be IMMEDIATELY obvious to anyone who has the capacity to read. They stripped the Aztec and Incan empires of all of their wealth in the span of a generation, and ever greedy for more, they quickly enslaved and killed the natives by the bushel basketsful. They were the worst sorts of criminals one can imagine during the late Medieval and early Renascence time periods and so naturally they were quite capable to making up lies about the Jesuits and anyone else who was brave or foolhardy enough to stand between them and their goals of wealth and power.
The Jesuits acted as referees of sorts, trying to save and Christinize the native populations of the New World, while at the same time permitting the colonists to settle the new lands and provide income for the Crown in the form of the "Quinta Real" or Royal Fifth, the 20% tax imposed by the Crown on all profits. This was a monumental task and it took a dedicated group of administrators to perform this, and these administrators were the Jesuits.
These are the facts. Every word which I have written is the product of actual research of actual documents which have been available for public viewing for centuries. I've not been able to come across any document in the form of a Royal Decree from 1592, 1621 or 1703 which expressly forbade the Jesuits, or anyone else from mining minerals or precious stones from the New World. Such documents would be ludacrious, taking into account that the fabulous silver mines at Potosi, Peru (now Bolivia) were adminstered by the Roman Catholic bishop Diego Ladrón de Guevara, whom the Crown of Spain appointed as Bishop of Upper Peru and later as Viceroy in 1703, and his zone of influence extended to the silver mines of Potosi. He remained at this post until he was deposed in 1716 on charges of embezzlement, which were later proven to be unfounded. His name, however, was very fitting. Ladron de Guevara, which translated to English means Thief of Guevara, ironically enough.
During his tenure as Viceroy, he increased mining production substantially while at the same time providing better working conditions for the miners. Through a bit of research, one will find that Roman Catholic clergy was involved in the administration of the colonies in the New World since the colonies were first established and the clergy that most often the administrators during the early and middle periods were in fact of the Jesuit Order. These are the facts. They aren't selective facts, nor are they half facts and suppositions based on actual facts. They aren't rumors, accusations, lies or conspiracies. They are facts. They are written and recorded and copied in a multitude of archives and libraries spread throughout Spain, Rome and the Americas. They are available to anyone who has the desire to seek them out. The authors and other so-called *professionals* who wrote books about the Jesuit involvement in the New World did so with a single goal in mind. To make a profit from the sale of their publications. One must always bear this mind BEFORE using an modern authors' opinion on the history of the New World.

To me, those statements seem to absolutely contradict each other. Is it your position that the Jesuits did indeed operate and own mines, just not to the grandiose measures written about? Thanks.

As for the bars pictured; I have already said that it is possible that they are not authentic, but not for the reasons you stated. See, the way things work here in the US, is when you sell something on the "black market", you will most definitely lose any historical value, and will be lucky to get spot gold prices. The man in the pictures actually sold his bars, and I don't think that historical value played any role in the sale (although I could be mistaken, because I don't have the actual terms of sale). I also know that he had no financial backing with which to fake the ingots in question. But then again, in your latest post, you say that Jesuit Mining is not only without question, it is fact.

Best-Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

just for the debeat of the topic lets say i was right . the Aztec had a home land of Aztlan and there was a vast silver and copper and gold mine there , along comes Deniz expedition and they learn whats what and vanish late 1435 herney the navigater find records pionting out the rich mines of Aztlan . he trys to recover them and his expedition is destored is he going to tell anyone , hell no . next comes along the 1519 expedition ad the word gets out again and the location becomes a focus piont for cortes ...montezuma 11 take the treasure back to aztlan , and then leds cortes away from the location ... by makeing 3 trails west,north, and east ...

cortes did not back track .dillman did not back track , i did ...

so if this is truth ,we would be looking at 3 Aztec sites of Aztlan that could have other sites in the area ..

how many times has people found other mines in the area , that well take time to locate each of the sites in question and to study the area ....

but if those Aztec site were the site of Aztlan and then became Aztec sites and then the area was found by Denis and then later by henry and then later by the 1519 expedition and then over looked by cortes . the location just starts to fade away after that ...until the blindbowman step into the game ...

this ould explan why no one has solved the legends and the stones , because they are not what you are led to beleive they are ...


i say this only for the debeat of the topic ...

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
To state that the Jesuits operated mines as owners is completely and totally false. No Jesuit ever had a financial stake in a large-scale mining operation in the New World. To state that the Jesuits took the ore from these mines and smelted it, then horded it or sent it secretly back to Europe or other parts of the world is equally ludicrious. There is not a single recorded instance which has come to light on this matter.
Jesuits were among other things, administrators. They administered to mining operations at the behest of the Crown and they preformed the duties dilligently. They did this as individuals ans not as a missionary society. They were generally Monsignors and Bishops, as the old saying "The bigger you are, the harder you fall" is quite literally the truth in this regard. The Jesuits who had attained positions of power were most often times very afraid of being from power, therefore they took extra in their work.
To state that these Jesuits recieved funds, either from the mines themselves, or from interested parties is also unfounded. They tended to all of their appointed tasks in the same detached manner.
To make the statement that a Jesuit mission was mining gold, silver or precious gems is another ludicrious falsehood. As a missionary order, they did not engage in mining activities. As individuals, some of them administered the mines as the request of the nobility and some of them taught the local miners how to increase mine productivity and how to work in a safer manner.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

You were doing fine here:

"In the missions, Jesuits were, and still are, expected to be self-supporting and to such ends they plant crops, grow grapes for wine, keep bees and and perform an entire gamut of other things."

You lost me here:

"Were the Jesuits able to mine ores and precious gems? Yes, they were on a limited basis so they could remain self supporting. So were the Francisians and the Dominicans able to do the very same thing, which they did."

Being "self-supporting" did not include gathering a treasure to send/hide.....anywhere. It meant producing all of the products needed to survive in the New World, and to create an environment for the Indian population where they did not need to raid the Spanish towns or their Indian neighbors for sustenance. The over production was not sent anywhere. It was sold and the income was put back into the mission system. Many of the less well off missions were the recipients of this kind of "wellfare".

I would like to see the one (1) document that you base that opinion on. If it was allowed, why isn't it written anywhere? There was nothing to hide......if it was allowed. Where is the document allowing them "limited" mining?

You left out pearls.

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

gollum stated

"Is it your position that the Jesuits did indeed operate and own mines"

know i have read some where that the jesuit did in fact get a amont of gold from spanish mines for the chruches share . and in many ways this could look as if the jesuits them selfs were mineing a site yet i have seen little proff of jesuits them selfs mineing ... , could they have gold bars . could they melt down gold give to them from spainish mines and make their own gold bars with their own labes ,yes . but that dose not mean they them selfs ran mines .. in the case of the story i was talking about the chruch was across from the mine and the spanish did go there to pray and the chruch was given a share of the gold comeing from the mine ,, it was latter stated to gold was hiden in a valut or crypt under the chruch .... and in the case of the story i was talking about the wealth under the chruch was most likely left when the jesuit and spanish were killed off in the massacre ..

so gollum the idea that jesuit had gold bars or gold in any type is not unbeleiveable ...the chruch got its cut the same way it dose today ,....lol

and i well add the gold the jesuits had was often made into chruch things if you well statues and candle holders , and this kind of things ..i can agree with lamar and disagree in part . they did not out right own mines as far as i know but they were working it for all it was worth...lol

also note the treasure trove list of Tayopa is a list of jesuit wealth in part the legend stated there was spanish holdings of gold and silver stored in the mouth of the tunnel. at the same time stateing ther jesuit had wealth stored under the chuch , so if any debeat starts over the controll of wealth being taken from these mines , we must say even if the jesuit did not own the mines or worked them . they did recieve wealth from them and in the case i am stateing they did in fact record the facts and sent the facts back to the vatcain in rome , i may be wrong but thats how i see it ...IMHO

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Friends,

I was rather surprised to see so many of our posts suddenly disappear, when clearly a good number were not of mere insult and rants – however they were not all deleted, they appear to have been moved to a new thread:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,121911.msg0/topicseen.html

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

[Let's start with a quote from Professor W. Wrightson who was the General Agent for the Aztec Syndicate Mining Group. He was exploring the Santa Cruz River Valley looking for good mining sites. Now, I would think that a Mining Syndicate General Agent would be pretty well versed in most all aspects of mining operations. Pretty obvious to me. Let's hear what he says about one of the things he found when he visited the Mission Ruins at Tumacacori in 1860 (it was long abandoned by then):

"To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used."

Furnaces with slag are not indicative of lime or brick burning pits as stated by the NPS (National Park Service).

This quote is taken directly from the National Park Service Website on the Tumacacori Mission. You can read the full article here:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pinkley/pinkley_tuma/sec1.htm]

I assume you are aware of the many "purpose(s)" that would require such a furnace and a stockpile (or dump) of slag. Is it your assertion that only precious metals could be worked, based on what was found at the mission?

The fact that the missions had facilities for "metallurgical operations" is hardly a big revelation. Can you think of any other work that might have created the "evidence" that was found? Just how much "slag" was found? Could wroughtiron have been created there? What about roofing tiles? The list really is much longer, but you get the idea. Are you aware of any uses for slag, that might warrant finding it by a furnace operation? Wouldn't the smelting of precious ores be a bit dangerous to be doing......right outside the walls of the mission?

You are telling us on the one hand, that the reason there is no proof of Jesuit mining, is because of the absolute secrecy of the Order, and on the other hand you are telling us they put their smelting operation in their front yard See anything wrong with that scenario?

We are still getting a lot of proof, that pretty much goes "poof" when examined.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

We are still getting a lot of proof, that pretty much goes "poof" when examined.

Perhaps in your own (and in others) eyes, such proof is going "poof". I can assure you that is not the case with every one reading these pages. Frankly, I find it a bit surprising that you would dismiss the presence of a smelting operation directly adjacent to a mission. What if we were not talking about Jesuits, but about an old ranch, perhaps of Anglo origins?

Suppose we were to find the ruins of an old American homestead, that had the obvious remains of a smelting operation there, complete with slag. (Slag is not produced in making roof tiles, slag is a by-product of processing metals and metal ores.) Would you presume that the obvious smelter and slag were NOT owned nor operated by the American homesteader, and that he had NOTHING to do with it? I can tell you that professional archaeologists do not make such assumptions. When they find ruins with obvious related evidence of activity directly adjoining the ruins, they do not make the assumption that the activity was not related to the ruins, rather the opposite. (I know of one particular instance to point up, of recent date, when archaeologists working in the ruins of ancient Carthage found the remains of smelters, complete with slag, they concluded the smelters were being run and operated by the Carthaginians who lived in the adjoining buildings. They did NOT conclude the ruined smelters were the property of the Greeks or the Romans, which some possible argument could have been made to support.)

Let us take this hypothetical American homestead complete with smelter, and say, that we found that people who lived near that homestead stated the American homestead was smelting gold there. These people are un-related to those homesteaders, and did not like them. Do you continue to think that American (hypothetical) homestead with a smelter, was surely NOT owned NOR operated by them? We could continue the analogy as far as we could care to, say that the now-living relatives of that homestead family claim they never owned nor operated such, or that any such activity must have belonged to the railroad; we could have the county sheriff shut down the homestead and ran off the family for their illegal smelting operation, or some other accusations, which seem doubtful today and the surviving relatives say that all those accusations were false. Would you believe the living relatives, or your own eyes, and your own common sense?

I see a slightly different 'phenomenon' taking place here with these posts, not one of evidence going "poof" but what begins to resemble entrenched opinions, coupled with what could be a personal bias of a positive nature. It would be hard to believe that good father Kino would have been involved in some illicit activity, yet we have little information on ALL of the Jesuit padres, much less of monks that were not working at mission churches to judge their character by.

I would also put to your consideration, the actual state of affairs that existed in Pimeria Alta (and most of Sonora for that matter) during the period when most of the mining activity was taking place; for it was a time of peril and danger of sudden assault by Apache (and Seri) warriors who might leap from the bushes almost at any moment. Father Nentvig points up how many rancherias, mines and mining camps had been abandoned in the face of the guerilla warfare, with the result being the survivors grouping into more easily defensible positions. It should come as NO surprise to find the ruins of smelters, blacksmithing, pottery-making, or for that matter even the corrals for keeping the livestock as close as possible in order to protect them in event of a sudden attack. What WOULD tend to make it look less-related to the mission ruins, would be if it were located quite some distance from the mission, and closer to other, non-mission buildings. However in this case, if we found a clear PATH running from the mission ruins to the smelter, what would that indicate to you? (Hint. )

Have you also followed the offshoot thread which was separated from this one, mi amigo Cactusjumper? If you have not, I hope you would have time (and patience) to read this post of mine:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,121911.msg892864.html#msg892864

If you would rather not spend time in the "rubber room" (with all that entails) I will understand completely. Perhaps I ought to have posted it in this thread, but am not sure which to be replying to since they are split.

I have one more question for you mi amigo Cactusjumper; do you believe there were NO mines nor mining activity done by the Franciscans? Thank you in advance,

Very truly,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

(Slag is not produced in making roof tiles, slag is a by-product of processing metals and metal ores.)

My friend, you have once again.....jumped to a conclusion, that was not warranted by the evidence. I did not say that "slag" is "produced in making roof tiles". That is exactly how "evidence" and "facts" are often created......by a misreading of historical accounts. I, of course, know where "slag" comes from. The question is, did this slag come from silver or gold ore, or some other metal being processed?

Slag and clay tiles, such as were produced in Mexico, California, Spain, South America and much of the world, have gone hand in hand for some time. In addition to that, the missionaries and the Indians they taught the necessary skills, did metalwork throughout the mission system.

Once again, the questions as they relate to proving Jesuit or Franciscan mining at that particular mission are: What was the composition of the slag?; How much was there?; Why was the smelter located outside the door of the mission?

While you have conjured up a rather nebulous argument for the last question, it's an important one. Many Spaniards and others would visit that mission. They would consist of settlers, prospectors, soldiers, merchants, traders, miners, explorers and Priests from opposing orders. I am sure I have left a number of folks out......no offense meant.

You assume that the ovens and slag being adjacent to the mission itself is indicative of the Priests being engaged in the mining and smelting of precious ores. I read exactly the same account that you and Mike have read, and conclude the Priests were not that stupid. I did not say that the "metallurgical operations" were not part of the mission itself. You could have also assumed that the building was a foundry.

A long series of hypothetical suppositions won't create a single historical fact.

It's quite possible that you are correct, and that the Jesuits......some or all, were involved in some way with working mines in the New World. Could we at least agree that they would not be stupid enough to have painted a huge sign on the side of the church? HERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE BREAKING THE KING'S LAWS.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Cactusjumper and everyone,

Cactusjumper wrote:

Could we at least agree that they would not be stupid enough to have painted a huge sign on the side of the church? HERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE BREAKING THE KING'S LAWS.

I would agree they would not be so "stupid", IF it was against the law (as has been claimed by numerous writers) AND they were in no danger from enemies such as Apaches or Seris. Remember our mutual amigo Lamar stated that it was NOT illegal either by Church or state laws. If he is correct, there would not be any need to conceal such operations, assuming they were forthright in their reports.

I would also like to add, that the slag found adjacent to the Guevavi mission was sold by the Anglo discoverers for the SILVER content remaining in it, which would hardly to be expected from slag if the operation had been for casting IRON or steel. The slag piles found at a blacksmith's site (my brother owns an old blacksmith site, which I investigated out of curiosity; it had operated for over 100 years on one spot, and the total amoung of slag would not fill a two gallon can) would not be very much noteworthy. It would also likely be very rusty, and possibly magnetic.

We might be splitting hairs as well, for a mine of lead, copper, iron, salt etc might have been of relatively low value (compared with silver or gold) but would still have been MINING and would have been valuable, possibly contributing to the welfare and upkeep of the mission flock, as well as to the church and state.

I take it that you do not find a statement from a Jesuit priest, describing how the missionaries would attempt to lure an Indian into telling the location of a secret mine, to be anything in the way of suggestion that they had some mining interest? (I refer to the statement of Father Nentvig)

I am still curious if you would say, that the FRANCISCANS also did not have anything to do with any mining in Spanish America? Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen:
Right on, a small notation, roof tile were / are made with a relatively low order of heat, never high enough to make "slag" . Obsidian is an example of Nature's slag, it looks like dense colored glass, because of this characteristic it was used for weapons.

In man's slag, you will generally find cone shaped pieces with the tips broken off. The rock had to be melted to a liquid state in order for the heavier matieriel -Gold, silver, Lead Iorn etc etc - to settle to the bottom and concentrate in the tip. This cancentrate was later broken off and subjected to further refining.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

thats was funny you said that real de . they didnt sell the indains to much that they could make into wapons.... lol .....the indains really didnt have much use for iron and lead it wasnt part of their normal life .. on the other hand we used the iron for farming equipment , the lead was for gun shot ..

with the size of the smelter up here in the north east they would skim the slag waste off the top and throw it out to cool in the piles thus we dont have as much cone shape slag as some other parts of the country dose ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose and Oro,

Let me stress, once again, you are misreading what I wrote. Here was my original statement:

"The fact that the missions had facilities for "metallurgical operations" is hardly a big revelation. Can you think of any other work that might have created the "evidence" that was found? Just how much "slag" was found? Could wroughtiron have been created there? What about roofing tiles? The list really is much longer, but you get the idea. Are you aware of any uses for slag, that might warrant finding it by a furnace operation?"

If clay roofing tiles were produced in the foundry, that process would not create any slag. In other words, the slag would not be a byproduct from firing the tile. The slag was there for another reason.
Too many stories are just that. Without some source or documentation for the money made from the silver content of the slag, it's just another unsubstantiated story, much like Mike's story and pictures of the guy with the gold and silver.

It looks good, sounds good and seems authentic. I am reminded of a fellow by the name of, James Addison Reavis and the Molina Document. Just two of many efforts to change history. Considering the vast amount of documents available making the case for the Jesuits not creating the treasure you wish for, or using native labor to mine it, I would like to see something more substantial than fake artifacts and the story of a pile of slag. Is that unreasonable?

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

CJ i would have to agree if there was slag there what type , how much ,was there any sign of ore and if so what type and how much was found .. , what type of smelter was it .. if very well could hve been a iron smelter , the reason i say that is iron smelters need high heat to melt the iron and make it workable ...

as i stated if it was a iron smelter there is going to be more then a hand full of slag , depending on how much iron was recoverd at that site ..no tiles do not heat to those levels to make slag IMHO...


" Is that unreasonable?"

no it is smart ... . seeing a pictur of slag dose next to nothing , fristhand inspection of slag piles is a must and i would most likely dismiss any clam that would not let you inspect the slag fristhand .....

"metallurgy of gold and silver is far diffrent from iron or steal ...

even in some cases pople believe they found a smelter only to find it was someones homemade black smith shop ...

 

[BILL96]

Help me out here, I need someone to give me a basic lesson in how gold or silver ore was actually processed 300 years ago. What was this slag acctually a product of? what is this slag material? As I understand it gold and silver are each processed much differently. I understand the basic process today and silver is very complicated to process and get a pure product.
Thanks,Bill