Map explanations please

[research guy]

Can someone please offer me an explanation for why these individual hand drawn maps are displaying the same information, but one seems to portray Tayopa while the other doesn?t?

Is there a problem here that is currently known, where one of these is an imposter, or is it simply two separate identities for the same site?

 

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[Lenrac2]

The one on the right looks like a photo from a book or map. The one on the left looks hand drawn.

 

[research guy]

I don’t disagree with your conclusions other than they were both hand drawn. The one on the left came from one of Boren’s books, and the one on the right looks to me like a 30+ year old xerox copy. The one on the right is associated to tayopa and the one on the left is not. But they are clearly depicting the same place. Does someone in this forum recognize this as a reasonable map of Tayopa?

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigo

All you are seeing are copies of copies. None of them have any provenance. They are what they are.

Crow

 

[freeman]

The photostat is a copy of a derrotero from 1927 that a man named Custard produced to C.B Ruggles and J Frank Dobie in their camp in La Quiparita. He said he had copied this and some other information from originals left by Father Domingo, the priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana.

(And everywhere they met people during their search another copy of a map to Tayopa would then appear......)

 

[research guy]

Thank you freeman! That’s what I needed to understand!

 

[KANACKI]

Thank you freeman! That?s what I needed to understand!

Hola Amigo

You might find interesting in researching further into the suspected identity of Custard? There was an American by the name of Lane Reed Custard born 1885 in some records say Ohio others say Missouri, United States of America. What is interesting he had a Mexican wife Celia B. Custard born in 1895. It appears they spent most of their lives in California where they had two daughters Celia and flora. Celia B. Custard maiden name was Vargas. full name was Cecilia Vargas [Cecilia Vargas Medina] She can be found in in the Zacatecas, Mexico, Civil Registration Births, 1861-1947

There is tentative connection through Vargas family with one of priests that was marred in the The Cristero War, also known as the Cristero Rebellion or La Cristiada was a widespread struggle in central and western Mexico in response to the imposition of secularist and anticlerical articles of the 1917 Constitution of Mexico, which were perceived by opponents as anti-Catholic measures aimed at imposing state atheism.

Jorge Ramon Vargas Gonzalez and Ramon Vicente Vargas Gonzalez both brothers were executed for hiding priests.

Jorge and Ramon Vargas Gonzalez were born in Ahualulco de Mercado, Jalisco, Mexico. Jorge Ramon was born on 28 September 1899 and Ram?n Vicente was born on 22 January 1905.

Jorge worked for a hydroelectric company and Ramon pursued the study of medicine. They were both active members of the ACJM.

After a long day of work, Jorge would dress in overalls and ride his bicycle, accompanying Fr Lino Aguirre on the rounds of his hidden sacramental ministry to help ensure his safety.

Ramon was always concerned for the health of the poor and helped them without seeking anything in return. He was known for his joyful spirit and his strong Catholic identity.

During the persecution, the Vargas Gonzalez family gave refuge to a number of priests and seminarians. Anacleto Gonzalez Flores was staying with them in March of 1927.

On the morning of 1 April 1927 the secret police completely surrounded the family home, shouting: "Open the door in the name of the law!". They stormed in and arrested everyone, including the two brothers, their mother and a younger brother, Florentino.

The Vargas Gonzalez family was accused of having hidden a "wanted" priest in their home and were taken to the Colorado jail.

As they were being led down the street, Ramon was able to escape unnoticed; but a little while later he turned back and rejoined the rest. When asked why he had not fled, Ramon replied: "I told myself, my mother and my brothers are prisoners; am I to run away?".

In jail, Florentino was separated from his two brothers, who were put in a cell next to Luis Padilla Gomez and Anacleto Gonzalez Flores. They knew they were going to be executed. But before being killed they were interrogated and tortured, remaining silent throughout.

Taken out to be shot, the four recited the Act of Contrition. Before the bullets were fired, Ramon made the sign of the cross and Jorge held a crucifix against his chest.

When the father of the two boys learned how his sons were killed, he said: "Now I know, it is not condolences that I need, but congratulations; I have the fortune to have two sons who are martyrs".

It hypothesized was from those brave acts a priest passed on a copy of Tayopa deterro via Vargas family through to Celia B. Custard Vargas to her American husband Lane Reed Custard in mid 1827 who passed on the copy to to C.B Ruggles and J Frank Dobie in their camp in La Quiparita.

Here is a picture of Lane Reed Custard Celia B. Custard maiden name was Vargas. He died in 1959 and she died in 1977.



Kanacki

 

[research guy]

Kanaki…. You are my kind of researcher! Very thorough! Great information! Thank you for the detailed process!

 

[research guy]

Oh Dear lord! The name J frank. Dobie sounded eerily familiar to me. He was the author of “Coronado’s children” 1930. I never thought to look in that book. I’ll see if what I am looking for in in the text. I’ve been actively treasure hunting for almost 18 years, but this is the first time that I have looked into Tayopa, so all of this is good Info and springboards me into that realm. Thanks

 

[Crow]

Gidday Kanacki amigo. Indeed an interesting hypothesis.

However there is a fatal flaw.... Because the encounter with Custard with Ruggles and Dobie is based on the claims of James Frank Dobie? Now here is the problem. There is no supporting evidence that Frank Dobie every stepped foot in Mexico?

To confirm his presence in Mexico I searched all the record data bases below. And even other shipping points. After about 1917 it became law requiring all people coming and going into the united states to be recorded through entrance and exit points.

This database contains an index of aliens and some citizens crossing into the U.S. from Mexico via various ports of entry along the U.S.-Mexican border between 1895 and 1964. Specifically, this database covers the following ports, years, and records:



Arizona
Ajo, Lukeville, and Sonoyta, Arizona (Jan. 1919-Dec. 1952) and Los Ebanos, Texas (Dec. 6, 1950-May 26, 1955)
Index to Manifests of Aliens Admitted for Permanent Residence, Jan. 1, 1919–June 30, 1924
Manifests of Aliens Admitted for Permanent Residence, Jan. 1, 1919–Jun. 30, 1924
Manifests of Aliens Admitted for Permanent Residence and Aliens Readmitted as Returning U.S. Residents, Jul. 1, 1924–ca. Dec. 1952

Manifests of Aliens Admitted Temporarily, Jul. 1, 1924–ca. Dec. 1952

Los Ebanos: Applications for nonresident Alien’s Border Crossing Identification Cards, Dec. 6, 1950–May 26, 1955.

Douglas, Arizona (Jul. 1908–Dec. 1952)

Nonstatistical manifest cards and statistical index cards (interfiled)

Douglas, Arizona (Sept. 10-1906-Oct. 10, 1955)

Manifests of permanent, temporary, statistical, and nonstatistical alien arrivals

U.S. citizen arrivals and records of aliens excluded from admission, Jul. 3, 1911-May 7, 1924.

Naco, Arizona (1908-1952)

Index to statistical manifests, nonstatistical manifests, and agricultural laborer manifests (all interfiled), 1908–1924

Statistical manifests, May 1908–Jun. 1924

Manifests of aliens admitted for permanent residence, Jul. 1924–ca. Dec. 1952

Manifests of aliens admitted temporarily, Jul. 1924–ca. Dec. 1952

Nogales, Arizona (Jul. 1905-1952)

Index to statistical manifests interfiled with nonstatistical manifests, ca. 1905-ca. 1926

Statistical manifests, Jul. 5, 1905-Oct. 1924

Aliens admitted for permanent residence and applications for resident alien border crossing identification cards, Jul. 1924-1952

Aliens admitted for temporary visits, 1927-1952

A few U.S. citizen arrivals are also included

San Luis, Arizona (Jul. 24, 1929-Dec. 1952)

Manifest records of aliens admitted for permanent residence

Manifest records of aliens admitted for temporary visits

Sasabe/San Fernando, Arizona (1919-1952)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Jan. 1, 1919-Jun. 30, 1924

Statistical and Permanent Manifests, Jan. 1, 1919-Jun. 30, 1924

Manifest Records of Aliens Readmitted as Returning U.S. Residents, Jul. 1, 1924-1952

Nonstatistical and Temporary Manifests, 1927-1952

Statistical and Permanent Manifests, 1919

California
Andrade and Campo (Tecate), California (1910-1952)

Statistical and nonstatistical manifests, and related index cards, of permanent and temporary alien arrivals

Calexico, California (1907-1952)

Statistical and Nonstatistical Card Manifests, September 6, 1909–December 1924

Statistical and Nonstatistical Card Manifests, 1925–1952

Statistical and Nonstatistical Sheet Manifests, March 7, 1907–June 30, 1924

San Ysidro (Tia Juana), California (Apr. 21, 1908-Dec. 1952)

Statistical and Nonstatistical Manifests Interfiled Alphabetically, Apr. 21, 1908-Dec. 1952

Statistical and Nonstatistical Manifests Interfiled Chronologically, Apr. 21, 1908-Jun. 30, 1924

Nonstatistical Manifests, Dec. 7, 1923-Jun. 30, 1924, of Head Taxes Transferred to Regular Fund, Jul. 1924-Feb. 1925, and Head Taxes Refunded, Jul. 1, 1924-Nov. 29, 1924

New Mexico
Columbus, New Mexico (1917-1954)

Statistical Manifests, Feb. 2-4, 1917 and ca. July 1, 1924-ca. Sept. 30, 1952

Statistical Index Cards and Statistical Manifests, ca. 1917-ca. 1944

Nonstatistical Manifests, ca. 1917-1926

Sheet Manifests, 1919 and 1921-1924

Admitted for Temporary Visits, 1924-1954

Permanent and Temporary Alien Admissions, 1953-1954

U.S. Citizen Admissions, 1924-1954

Applications for Nonresident Alien’s Border Crossing Identification Cards, ca. 1945-ca. 1952

Texas
Brownsville, Texas (Feb. 1905-Mar. 31, 1957)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Feb. 1905-Mar. 1952, interfiled with Nonstatistical Manifests, Feb. 1905-Nov. 1929

Statistical Manifests, Feb. 1905-Mar. 1952

Nonstatistical Manifests, Dec. 1929-Jun. 1953

Passenger and crew lists of vessels (Mar. 24, 1931–Mar. 31, 1957) and airplanes (Dec. 1, 1954–Mar. 31, 1957). Both U.S. citizens and aliens are included.

Lists of outbound passengers and some lists of arrivals at Port Arthur and Port Isabel, Texas (1950s)

Temporary and Nonstatistical Manifests of Aliens Arriving at Eagle Pass, Texas, July 1928 - June 1953

Eagle Pass, Texas (Jun. 1905-Jun. 1953)

Card manifests of alien temporary and nonstatistical arrivals (Jul. 1, 1928-Jun. 1953)

Manifests of permanent and statistical arrivals (Jun. 1905-Jun. 1953)

El Paso, Texas (May 1909-Oct. 1924)

Manifests of statistical alien arrivals

El Paso, Texas (ca. Jul. 1924-Dec. 1954)

Applications for Nonresident Alien's Border Crossing Identification Cards (ca. Jul. 1945-Dec. 1952), with the majority of the applications made between 1948 and 1952

Card manifests of aliens granted temporary admission to the U.S. (ca. Jul. 1924-Dec. 1954)

Index to Manifests of Permanent and Statistical Alien Arrivals at El Paso, Texas, July 1924-July 1952

Non-statistical Manifests and Statistical Index Cards of Aliens (June 1905–November 1929)

A few U.S. citizen arrivals and records of exclusion of aliens are also included

Fabens, Texas (Jul. 1924-1954)

Manifest records of aliens admitted for temporary visits, Jul. 1, 1924-1954

Manifest records of aliens admitted for permanent residence, Jul. 1, 1924-Jul. 27, 1952

Applications for Nonresident Alien's Border Crossing Identification Cards, ca. 1945-Dec. 24, 1952

Fort Hancock, Texas (1924-1954)

Manifest records of aliens admitted for temporary visits, 1924-1954, with the majority dated from 1931-1944

Applications for Nonresident Alien's Border Crossing Identification Cards, ca. 1945-Dec. 24, 1952

A few U.S. citizen arrivals and records of exclusion of aliens are also be included

Hidalgo, Texas (1907-1955)

Manifests of Alien Arrivals at Hidalgo, Texas, October 1907-May 1955

Laredo, Texas (Jul. 1908-Feb. 1912)

Manifests of nonstatistical alien arrivals (INS Form 548)

Laredo, Texas (May 1903-Apr. 1955)

Nonstatistical manifests and statistical index cards of alien arrivals. Some U.S. citizens are also included, May 1903-Nov. 1929

Index cards providing information about permanent and statistical alien arrivals, Dec. 1, 1929-Apr. 29, 1955

Nonstatistical manifests of non-Mexican aliens granted temporary admission, Dec. 1, 1929-Apr. 8, 1955

Card manifests of aliens granted temporary admission to the U.S., Dec. 1, 1929-Apr. 8, 1955

A few U.S. citizen arrivals and some records of exclusion of aliens are also included

Lists of aliens arriving via the Mexican National Railroad or the Laredo Foot Bridge, Jul. 1903-Jun. 1907

Presidio, Texas, (1895–1954)

Permanent Admission Manifests, July 1, 1924–July 27, 1952

U.S. Citizen Admission Manifests, ca. 1947–ca. 1955 (and Some Exclusions)

Nonstatistical (Temporary) Admissions, ca. 1911–ca. 1927

Statistical (Permanent) Admissions, ca. 1914–ca. 1924

“Long Form” Manifests of Statistical and Nonstatistical Admissions, ca. 1919–ca. 1925

Temporary Admission Manifests, 1924–1954

Progreso/Thayer, Texas (Oct. 1928-May 1955)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Oct. 6, 1928-Nov. 19, 1952

Statistical Manifests, Oct. 6, 1928-Nov. 19, 1952

Nonstatistical and Temporary Manifests, Oct. 1928-May 27, 1955

Rio Grande City, Texas (Nov. 1908-May 1955)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Nov. 16, 1908-Jan. 15, 1952

Statistical Manifests, Nov. 16, 1908-Jan. 15, 1952

Nonstatistical Manifests, Mar. 22, 1916-May 30, 1955

Roma, Texas (Mar. 1928-May 1955)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Aug.13, 1929-Aug. 19, 1954

Statistical and Nonstatistical Manifests, Mar. 1, 1928-Nov. 30, 1929

Statistical Manifests, Aug. 13, 1929-Aug. 19, 1954

Nonstatistical and Temporary Manifests, Mar. 1, 1928-May 30, 1955

San Antonio, Texas (May 17, 1944-Mar. 1952)

Statistical manifests of permanent and temporary alien arrivals by airplane

Yseleta, Texas (Jul. 1924-1954)

Statistical and Permanent Manifests, Jul. 1, 1924-Jul. 27, 1952

Manifests of Aliens Admitted for Temporary Visits, 1924-1954

Applications for Nonresident Alien's Border Crossing Identification Cards made before Dec. 24, 1952

A few U.S. citizen arrivals and records of exclusion from entry are also included

Zapata, Texas (Aug. 1923-Sep. 1953)

Index to Statistical Manifests, Dec. 1, 1929-Jun. 7, 1950

Statistical Manifests, Aug. 18, 1923-Jun. 7, 1950

Nonstatistical and statistical cards (interfiled), Aug. 18, 1923-Nov. 30, 1929

Nonstatistical and Temporary Manifests, Apr. 25, 1929-Sept. 10, 1952

Applications for Nonresident Alien's Border Crossing Identification Cards, Apr. 29, 1945-Sep. 15, 1953

A few U.S. citizen arrivals are also included

Manifests for INS District of El Paso, Texas

Brownsville, Texas (Jul. 1906-Jun. 1909)

Del Rio, Texas (Jul.-Sep. 1906, Jul.-Jun. 1909)

Eagle Pass, Texas (Jul. 1906-Jun. 1909)

El Paso, Texas (May 1903-Jun. 1909)

Laredo, Texas (Jul. 1906-Jun. 1909)

Presidio, Texas (Mar.-Sep. 1908, Jan.-Apr. 1909)

Rio Grande City, Texas (Nov. 1908, Jun. 1909)

Aros Ranch, Arizona (Feb.-Sep. 1908, Jan.-Mar. 1909)

Douglas, Arizona (Jul. 1906-Dec. 1910)

Lochiel, Arizona (Jul.-Dec. 1908)

Naco, Arizona (Jul. 1906-Jun. 1909)

Nogales, Arizona (Sep. 1906-Jun. 1909)

In addition, the names found in the index are linked to actual images of the records, copied from National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) microfilm (see Source Information for microfilm series information).
A variety of Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) forms were used to record information about individuals entering the United States. Types of forms used included: List or Manifest of Alien Passengers for the U.S. Immigration Officer at Port of Arrival; Record of Aliens Arriving; Alien Laborer’s Identification Card; Land Border Departure Record; and Record of Registry. Due to the variety of forms, the amount of information available for an individual in this database will vary according to the form used and the questions asked on it. The database generally includes:
Name
Age
Birth date
Birthplace
Gender
Ethnicity/nationality
Names of individuals accompanied by
Port of arrival
Arrival date



Additional information about an individual may be recorded on the original document and may be obtained by viewing the corresponding image. Some records even include a photograph of the individual or their family.
The majority of the records are arranged alphabetically by surname. Some are arranged by Soundex code. The records can include both permanent and temporary residence information, as well as statistical and nonstatistical arrivals.

After a comprehensive search for James Frank Dobie in various forms there is no evidence that he ever set foot in Mexico.

So in Dobies writings where he claims to be with Ruggles when this alleged Custard approached them appears to be on shaky ground. One begs to question what else's that has received a good dose of writers license? How reliable in reality is Dobies account?

However I have some thing else to show you.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday amigos

I searched for C.B Ruggles as well. I have his passport application below.

A noted photographer actually photographed Ruggles in Mexico Below dated 1912.

Source Nicholson, Grace, -1948 Hartman, Carroll S., 1857-1933 Note about attribution of photographs: Grace Nicholson and her employee/associate, Mr. Carroll S. Hartman, both took photographs during their trips, and in many cases, it is difficult to determine the photographer. Sometimes the same scene was photographed with two different cameras and film sizes—possibly from cameras each was carrying. For this reason, attribution is dual: Photographs by Grace Nicholson/Carroll S. Hartman. The image is in is in Huntington museum art collection at the university of California.

While no doubt Ruggles was in Mexico in 1912.The question remains was he in Mexico in 1927 when he met this alleged Custard?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigos

In searching the records. We have Ruggles returning to San Diego in 1933 by ship via Baja below.


Er cannot seem to post so I will try later.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigos

Mary Kasulaitis tells more about C.B. and Etta Ruggles.

On the west side of town going towards Sasabe, a dirt road takes off to the north. “The Old Ruggles Road,” the sign says. It’s named for C.B. and Etta Ruggles, who spent their retirement years enlivening Arivaca with activity and stories.


Some people still remember C.B. and his bout with something like Alzheimers. He was in decline for several years and was kept going through the sheer force of Etta’s will and caretaking ability. However, up to that time he had had a very interesting life, albeit not now politically correct. May I point out that in those days trapping and hunting were perfectly acceptable occupations.


C.B. and Etta moved to Arivaca in the late 30s and took up residence on some mining claims a few miles north of town. Bob Marshall described their place as he first saw it in 1956: “The camp was small, located in a draw. There were two good wells on the property, which consisted of about twenty mining claims. Besides the mail house, there were three small guest cabins.

The yard was a hodge-podge of Indian artifacts, mineral specimens, deer racks, javelina skull, and other souvenirs of the surrounding country. Several varieties of prickly-pear cactus grew about the yard. A huge bear trap, one of a kind in use a century ago to trap the big grizzly of the Rockies, hung from an iron pole in one corner of the yard. A number of Gambel’s quail were feeding about the place.

The Ruggleses asked me in and showed me about the little house. It was a veritable museum inside, as the yard was outside. More mineral specimens, hunting trophies, guns and tanned hides were everywhere. I took a seat while the Ruggleses showed me their scrapbooks.


They had spent three years together trapping in Alaska. (They met in Anchorage) They had written two articles on their adventures in the north for The Saturday Evening Post. There were also pictures Ruggles had taken of Indians in the Sierra Madre Occidental of Mexico. He was, I found, mentioned several times in the Report of the Game and Fish Warden for New Mexico, 1912, and was pictured with bear and mountain lions he had killed. He had once been an intimate friend of J. Frank Dobie (read Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver for a story about C.B.).

The two of them had once traveled together in the Sierra Madre. He had not done any lion hunting for a number of years. They had been living in this place about sixteen years on their Social Security.


Little by little, as we looked through the old scrapbooks and talked, C.B. Ruggles’ colorful life took shape. Now eighty years old (in 1956), he had certainly lived adventurously. His very start in life was unusual. He was named C.B. having been born on the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy train while the train was some hours out of Quincy…


The son of a physician turned Indian agent and rancher, Ruggles had been reared on an Oregon ranch among Modoc Indians. In his earlier days, he had punched cows, mustanged, trapped for fur, and spent considerable time guiding hunting parties in the Rockies and Old Mexico. In the early 1900s Ruggles was chief guide for the Cliff Cities Pack Outfitters, a concern specializing in pack trips into the Four Corners country. For many years his headquarters was in Taos, New Mexico. Yes, he did have another family before Etta.


From professional hunting Ruggles turned to prospecting and mining, searching for the Lost Tayopa Mine in Mexico. Possessed of considerable medical knowledge picked up from his father, Ruggles was often in a position to administer medical aid to natives in the back country of Mexico. His status as El doctor saved his life many times.”* When C.B. started to slow down they came to Arivaca to retire and do a little prospecting. And a little story telling.


C.B. was a great storyteller. Robert Marshall reprinted his tale of the shooting of an onza in his book on those elusive big cats. He was also a great one for lost mine stories. He’d sit outside the store and entertain anyone who came by.


Etta was just as adventurous as C.B. in her own way. Born in Sweden in 1897, she came to the U.S. when she was 17 years old with a group of Mormons and settled with them in Salt Lake City. Somehow she ended up in Alaska, where she was known to trap, hunt and drive a dog sled with the best of them. When she came to Arivaca with C.B. she helped build their cabins. Some would say that she probably built them all by herself. It was her “Big Rock Candy Mountain.” For years she was the den mother of Arivaca. She had no children of her own, but all the kids in town had wooden toys or doll furniture that she had made.

She started a 4-H club and taught crafts in Emma Mae Townsend’s class at Arivaca school. Every year she made sure all the children had something to take to the Pima County Fair. These kids also remember her little wire haired fox terriers, and especially her herd of goats and the experience of having to drink goat milk whenever you made a trip to her house. Etta organized activities and took care of everyone in town. One of the most exciting things she did was to get Santa Claus to make a trip to Arivaca! Besides that, she frequently worked at Hack’s store or for Stockwell’s Honey Company. Etta was nothing if not hard working, and always with enthusiasm and a big smile.


When C.B.’s health declined, they moved to Tucson. He died in 1962 and on his headstone in Evergreen Cemetery is a miner and burro that he drew himself. Etta moved to Prescott. She passed away in 1969 and is buried next to C.B. in Tucson. I would hate for people to forget the folks behind the name on the road sign. Its easy for me to remember Etta: she’s in one of our old home movies, taken on my first birthday. And of course, she brought the cake.


*The Onza, by Robert E. Marshall, New York : Exposition Press, c1961. (Bob was Barbara Stockwell’s father) Thanks to Haclene Townsend Culling and Alice Allen for their remembrances of Etta.

Crow

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Crow

Some good stuff amigo and enlightening as you have remind me cardinal rule never trust what is claimed 100% without confirming from various other sources. Your comments was thought provoking. I forced me to look harder through records.

And Indeed I found flaws also in that hypothesis for example Dobie claimed in 1927 he was with Ruggles in his own 1927 newspaper interview claims he found Tayopa but makes no mention he was with Dobie or met this alleged Custer. But he does mention he found 5 documents and claimed you needed all 5 to find Tayopa and he spent 6 years searching for Yayopa from 1921 to 1927.

You can see below. Newspaper Danville Bee date November 1 1927. C B Ruggles claims he had found Tayopa.



Watch is interesting I think I know the document you mention as the destination Ruggles gave returning to San Diego
Was an address in Los Angeles . Custard was living there also in 1930s. I know it could be coincidence but it appears Ruggles made to return trips from Mexico giving an address in Los Angeles?



It appears in voter registrations Custard lived at the same address from 1920, 1930 and was recorded in the California voter registrations in 1927. Of course that still does not mean he was not in Sonora in 1927 and met Ruggles.

Another story unconfirmed Ruggles only met Dobie in 1928 so there is no way Dobie was with him in 1927.

One thing out of this it has highlighted how unreliable Frank Dobies account of events. Clearly I suspect that he was never there is Mexico just added himself to his version of the story?

Interesting enough Frank Dobie when interviewed claimed he was a story teller and folklorist and not a historian. So perhaps that was admission not hang off every word he wrote.

I is one of perennial problems researching treasure legends is putting too much faith in single source. Dobies book might be the most well known to tell the Tayopa story it should not be trusted to detail.

Kanacki

 

[research guy]

he found Tayopa but makes no mention he was with Dobie or met this alleged Custer. But he does mention he found 5 documents and claimed you needed all 5 to find Tayopa.

Kanacki

See now this is an interesting piece of information from my perspective, and the exact reason I?m trying to determine if the ?mineral de winte? map on the left of the original post had legitimate relationship to the ?mineral de Tayopa? map on the right. It is vey easy for a site to accumulate multiple identities over time coming from different perspectives or cultures. Both maps are clearly representing the same physical site, and I?m trying to determine if ?Mineral de winte? and mineral de Tayopa? are two independent identities for the same site, or if one of these maps were a hoax of the other. The fact that you need 5 maps in total to find the site is a very interesting fact in relationship to my original question.

 

[wrmickel1]

View attachment 1948250 View attachment 1948251

Can someone please offer me an explanation for why these individual hand drawn maps are displaying the same information, but one seems to portray Tayopa while the other doesn?t?

Is there a problem here that is currently known, where one of these is an imposter, or is it simply two separate identities for the same site?

The bottom map is called pointillism a much older map between the two. Most likely a schooled person from the clergy. The other seems to be maybe a person from there or near by to point you at the main focus the mines and direction. Both cover the same area just different agenda's

Babymick1 just my views on the subject.

 

[Crow]

The bottom map is called pointillism a much older map between the two. Most likely a schooled person from the clergy. The other seems to be maybe a person from there or near by to point you at the main focus the mines and direction. Both cover the same area just different agenda's

Babymick1 just my views on the subject.

Gidday amigos!

The church still exists and also the village Guadalupe de Tayopa. Here is the church below.

Here is another picture of the side buildings.

You can see the village below still exist today.

Around the village are a grouping of abandoned mines in a horseshoe. Guadalupe de Tayopa was totally abandoned because of Indian attacks but by 1927 the ruins had been long inhabited again by a new generation of people since the 1880's. They have built over or incorporated ruins into present homes. the baptismal records of Guadalupe de Tayopa during that time was moved to Santa Anna Sonora Jesuit Church. Today about 126 people live in the village. Of course today the church is too small to have a resident priest or cura. like they did in 1646. The maps are so generalised they do not give an accurate impression of the distance of the mines from the village Guadalupe de Tayopa.

To complicate things there 3 sites associated Tayopa.

Crow

 

[coazon de oro]

It has been said that there are three Tayopas, but these two Tayopa clues clearly point out the one that Crow shows us. I had shared the sun setting over it, seen from the Cerro De La Campana on the 7th of March. The other red line points to Don Jose's Tayopa below Serruchito.
The other clue shows the Dos Cerros Chapos at the entrance of Tayopa, right in front of where one would be traveling to look for it.

Homar

 

[JohnWhite]

I am certainly no Don Jose but I do believe I have stumbled upon Tayopa, or at least one of the 3…I could be wrong, mind you, but I too have the right to dream…

The area I have been to meets the description of several treasure legends, it even matches up with the legend of Santa Fe, of the PSM’s. Though as I have stated, I am in no rush to reveal said location.

Who can say IF I have truly been to any area? Oh well. The ante is up to 13 million for me to spill the beans, on my next birthday it will be 14 million, or who knows I just might hit the lottery one of these days. IF such a thing were too happen I just might reveal said location to ya’ll. We will just have to wait and see.

Only time will tell.

Ed T

 

[Crow]

Gidday Amigos

The various versions of hand drawn maps have no historical content before 188o's They were stylized hand drawn versions taken from a written description of the Tayopa mining district.

There is a more reliable written version of where Tayopa was in the following below. This is in legal documents below of an application for concession to resume mining.

Crow