tayopa : the mexican version of the story

lilorphanannie

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Apr 19, 2008
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i have just ,in the last few weeks come to know this forum as a guest , and i must say theres a lot of interesting dialogue going on , enough so ,that its provoked me into signing on , believing that i perhaps could offer some positive direction to some points that seem to have been convienently evaded or misconstrued. i have chosen to present what little i know under the heading of the tayopa legend, because my area of experience is mexican mining history. it is my intent to respond to some of the comments ive read throughout this forum ,without specifics, with facts i know to be true. it is not my intention to offend anyone nor argue .after all ,the idea is to find treasure, not to waste years and money talking about it. first, treasure law in mexico --- mexican law states ,( i am paraphrasing ) in the event of a treasure, in all cases, the treasure belongs to the landowner, example, a grandfather buried 20 centenarios during the revolution and his great grandson finds them while replastering the kitchen wall , that treasure belongs to whoevers name is on the deed to the property. in the case of a larger treasure, one that the state deems of historical interest ,the treasure belongs to the state (this is 100% true with pre columbian finds ) . it is the general procedure, when a foreigner wants to pursue a treasure excavation ,he is to solicit permission from the office of the governor of that state, whereas an agreement is reached as how to divide the spoils. in most cases a detachment of troops will be sent with you ,and in fact ,do most of the work, with regards to mining concessions ,a mining claim is given in two phases ,first a 5 year exploration title and then a 50 exploitation title ,where the taxes go up signifigantly. the idea ,of course is to work the property ,not to speculate on it . in no way, does the claimholder own the property ,it still belongs to the landowner , normally there is an agreement written up between the two as to access ,reclamation ,royalties etc. as a claimholder ,a mining title gives you the right to extract ore, you are leasing the property and the right to mine it. as far as tayopa is conscerned,from the mexican point of view ,it is not lost ,and never has been, there have been several books dedicated to it ,and many magazine articles,some are first hand accounts ,with directions,(these all are in spanish)there are also accounts on all of the supposedly lost mexican mines mentioned here in this forum. the un-official "take" from the mexican side is that tayopa did exist ,originally , at the site where "real de tayopa" has claimed in the sierra obscura ,this is the site that coinsides with dobies map, then the community picked up and moved north to resettle at the site that is not too far from guaynopa and nacori chico ,and where the baptismal records are still on file in badcadeuachi. i have a mining report dated 1864 from a group of engineers sent to evaluate the second tayopa site ,with the geographical cordinates given, . adding to the confusion ,is the fact that the church missions were located at some distance from the mine site ,more so in the 2nd tayopa. both tayopa mission sites are readily identifiable in mexican topographic maps ,purchased at inegi offices in any state capital. the 2nd mine site is not found on any map. as for the treasure (this is heresay, from mexican sources ),a large part of the treasure was recovered in the early 1900's ,this was at the original site where some of the bulkier items were left behind, but the and church items were taken to the 2nd site to start the new community. the 2nd tayopa operated for about 80 years until the mines flooded , the silver was reported very complicated to extract from the ore. i have seen tayopa dore bars all dated in the 1700's crudely formed, lastly, id like to comment on mexico as a country, if you favor statistics you can go to a site such as nationmaster and compare crime to that of the states and it is apparent that mexico is in almost all catagories a much safer place.if you prepare yourself ,learn as much as you can ,language ,etc and treat people with sincerity and respect you will enjoy freedom and cooperation like it was in the states years ago. i am a part time treasure (finder) based in mexico for around 15 years, i have no interest in tayopa or popular treasure legends ,but prefer to conscentrate on low key projects where i can triangulate information from various sources ,i apoligize for the lengthly message but i dont own a computer ,and took this opportunity to speak ,all the best in your search.
 

the blindbowman

Bronze Member
Nov 21, 2006
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lol i dont even know where to start with this one ...lol .. for one i can prove tayopa was in the supersitition mts from around 1595-1608, so you would be wrong , it is not in mexico and if i am correct the real de tayopa EL camino may have cross mexico but from Guaymas and ended in AZ... as part of 3 el caminos comeing to one set of sea ports to ship weath back to spain...

mexico was not even mexico back then , these were areas of exploration ..there was no mexico at the time ... the date of 1700 is of by no less then 92 years lol

i think you have a lot of studying to do ...


and last but not lest "grandfather buried 20 centenarios "

if your grandfather is that foolish or cheap to buries 20 centenarios , then i guess you would go dig it up .....lol
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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bb,

"i think you have a lot of studying to do ..."

Admittedly, none of us are as brilliant as you, so we are all doing our best to rise to your level. Your observation on the Centenario is a prime example of where our education is lacking.

Keep up the good work.

Joe Ribaudo
 

the blindbowman

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Nov 21, 2006
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i have been to mexico 5 or 6 times and $1000 is next to nothing . if you would waste 48 years of your life for $1000 your a fool , a preson life is worth far more then money value ...you got to be jokeing right .i was a indigo crystall child and i said just what i ment .....i gave a 100 Centenario to my daughter when she was 7 years old ...

this was not my piont in the frist place .. my piont was there is no writtern record of where Tayopa is .. as far as my research has found to day ... so if your mexican or american has nothing to do with the facts ...

if you find anything that says tayopa is anywhere i would queastion it ...as secound hand heresay ...its just like the tayopa treasure trove list untill i prove that tayopa is at site4 and the list objects are there then it is nothing but heresay ...fact


its like your trolling skills are at a frist grade level Cj , find a new hobby ...


good post lilorphanannie , i hope to see more of your insight to tayopa but i can only say there are people here that will question anything you say even your name and who you really are ...so head up and stand strong and i will give you my honest opioion even if its not what you want to hear ...i wont post in this topic unless someone like CJ dose know better then to make presonal foolish reply .... like his last ...

so i welcome any new opioions or eveidence of tayopa or anything else you may want to share ...
 

Cubfan64

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the blindbowman said:
and last but not lest "grandfather buried 20 centenarios "

if your grandfather is that foolish or cheap to buries 20 centenarios , then i guess you would go dig it up .....lol

If you expect others to read and pay attention to what you write, you really ought to do the same. Here - read slowly....

lilorphanannie said:

...first, treasure law in mexico --- mexican law states ,( i am paraphrasing ) in the event of a treasure, in all cases, the treasure belongs to the landowner, example, a grandfather buried 20 centenarios during the revolution and his great grandson finds them while replastering the kitchen wall , that treasure belongs to whoevers name is on the deed to the property. in the case of a larger treasure, one that the state deems of historical interest ,the treasure belongs to the state (this is 100% true with pre columbian finds )...

Nowhere does this person state that HIS/HER grandfather buried anything - I'm surprised that an expert researcher such as yourself would mistake an example for a life story, but then again you were probably focused more on ridiculing and belittling yet another "stupid human."

Please carry on.
 

Cubfan64

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the blindbowman said:
i have been to mexico 5 or 6 times and $1000 is next to nothing . if you would waste 48 years of your life for $1000 your a fool , a preson life is worth far more then money value ...you got to be jokeing right .i was a indigo crystall child and i said just what i ment .....i gave a 100 Centenario to my daughter when she was 7 years old ...

this was not my piont in the frist place .. my piont was there is no writtern record of where Tayopa is .. as far as my research has found to day ... so if your mexican or american has nothing to do with the facts ...

if you find anything that says tayopa is anywhere i would queastion it ...as secound hand heresay ...its just like the tayopa treasure trove list untill i prove that tayopa is at site4 and the list objects are there then it is nothing but heresay ...fact

its like your trolling skills are at a frist grade level Cj , find a new hobby ...

good post lilorphanannie , i hope to see more of your insight to tayopa but i can only say there are people here that will question anything you say even your name and who you really are ...so head up and stand strong and i will give you my honest opioion even if its not what you want to hear ...i wont post in this topic unless someone like CJ dose know better then to make presonal foolish reply .... like his last ...

so i welcome any new opioions or eveidence of tayopa or anything else you may want to share ...

Hmmm, that's odd - nobody on this thread has questioned lilorphanannie except you when you laughed at him/her and suggested he/she do alot more studying.

Just out of curiosity, where did the "wasting 48 years of your life for $1000 come from?"

Oh and...

BB said:
i was a indigo crystall child

well of course you are ::)
 

the blindbowman

Bronze Member
Nov 21, 2006
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dont waste this members post with you BS ,,


after so many frist post trolling of people useing more then one name on the site i question everything .. but foolish replys of presonal nature like your BS ,, but knowing the way you made your last two replies and haveing totally nothing to do with the topic other then a presonal nature to me tells me your nothing more then a happy hiker ...LOL if your going to be a treasure hunter get over it and fast or you will wish you had .... DA

how was the climb .....lol
 

Cubfan64

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Lilorphanannie,

Although you may not own a computer, please feel free to join in the discussions regarding Tayopa. If you've been reading through alot of the dialogue as you say, I'm sure you've already surmised that Real De Tayopa and Oroblanco are the resident experts in regards to much of the Tayopa story - especially Real, and I'm positive they would love to share thoughts with you.

On the other hand, there are others here who have a great deal of theories that stretch the imagination and little to back them up besides cut and pasted web site information which anyone can find on their own. Some of the theories do stimulate discussion and while very true that "outside the box" thinking can lead to true discoveries, sometimes people here can be extremely closeminded when other's theories don't coincide with their own - to the point where ridicule and belittling goes a bit overboard.

Do your best to ignore it and join in the dicussion whenever you get a chance through access to a computer. I'm just an observer in regards to Tayopa, but it's a fascinating story and captures the imagination.

Welcome to Tnet
 

Cubfan64

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the blindbowman said:
dont waste this members post with you BS ,,


after so many frist post trolling of people useing more then one name on the site i question everything .. but foolish replys of presonal nature like your BS ,, but knowing the way you made your last two replies and haveing totally nothing to do with the topic other then a presonal nature to me tells me your nothing more then a happy hiker ...LOL if your going to be a treasure hunter get over it and fast or you will wish you had .... DA

how was the climb .....lol

It was great :) Sitting up there watching the birds fly by and lizards hopping around on the rocks with the wind blowing through my hair and warm sun on my face was truly relaxing. The class 5 climb to the top was grueling however, and I thought I was going to die several times ::) The views alone were well worth it.

It was a wonderful experience to enjoy the beauty, solitude and peacefulness of the area. I don't think I've ever considered myself or claimed to be a treasure hunter, but I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong about that. I love hiking, exploring and just experiencing nature though, so I guess in that sense I find treasure every time I'm out there.

Thanks for asking though :)
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Good afternoon Annie: There have been some changes recently that I would like to bring to your attention.

A) Both Explotacion & Exploracion titles are now each for 50 years, renewable.

B) The mineral rights belong exclusively to the Government. Through a title, you have an exclusive right to extract them in the area covered by the title. The land owner only has the surface rights, the actual ownership of all land also resides with the Gov't. However since it is considered a one time occurrence, the land owner will receive a negotiated % of the production, or work on the property, such as wells, roads, etc., in lue of any metal or money.

C) You are correct on a prior agreement between the TH'r and the land holder If no prior agreement has been made, then the title / ownership of any recovered treasure is 100% the land owners, except in the case of something of historical significance, in which case the gov't will examine it / them, then decide if they want it, if so, they claim that they will pay market value. If they have duplicates, they will keep the better for the Museums..

D) The treasure at My Tayopa has "not" been touched, it is still intact. It is the Tayopa the stories were written about, and looked for extensively, it is the Tayopa of Dobie's book, "Apache gold, Yaqui
Silver". . Even today the people living in the area do not know where it is - I do.

E) Your sequence of the Tayopas is in reverse. As mentioned many times, the first Tayopa is in the vicinity of Cuaynopa / Guaynopita. The second is the present Santa Anna de Tayopa. The first is still in question if they ever returned to claim and work it. The third apparently was never reopened. Santa Anna has been worked continuously.

F) I agree that there are several Tayopa's indicated on INEGI maps etc., most are simply later mines or prospects of hopefulls that called the properties Tayopa, or one of it's spelling variations.

"The TAYOPA" is not on any present day map.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

the blindbowman

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Nov 21, 2006
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its on my map ...lol the site $ that dose look to be a tayopa site , but for a diffrent reason then most beleive .. the fact as i see it was the tayopa name came from the real de tayopa el camino and all the sites with the tayopa name were once part of the el camoino's yet some became confused with wich el camino the site was on .. and where the elcamino begain and ended ..

i have a week of research to do to make a presentation of my research to a well know scientist,,in fact one of the best in world ...if he beleives i have a site ,, then , then i my have all the help i can stand and then some ...

if this is a clovis site and chicomoztoc we will know right then ...

i cross my fingers and hope i have enough evidence to present a strong case for site 4 ...

i still beleive this is a very old secerd place of the Acoma and even older clovis tribes , but i hope by makeing the site a workable clovis site my other findings will be proven threw the research done at the site...this will deside if i put togather expedition 3B...


we will find out if i am right or not and thats what treasure hunting is all bout .. getting out there and trying, win or lose has little to do with it ...in my hyplothesis there are as many as 3 tayopa's maybe more . but 3 main ones ...

i got a lot of work to do .. good topic .. stay with it ... maybe some good evidence can be pulled out into the light ...
 

Oroblanco

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Lilorphanannie wrote:
as far as tayopa is conscerned,from the mexican point of view ,it is not lost ,and never has been, there have been several books dedicated to it ,and many magazine articles,some are first hand accounts ,with directions,(these all are in spanish)there are also accounts on all of the supposedly lost mexican mines mentioned here in this forum

I keep hearing this statement or words to this effect, yet have never seen anything to back up the statement. Are there government records, maps etc which clearly show that Tayopa was never lost? I would very much like to see that. I am not saying that it is not possible, in fact I have gone hunting for a lost mine that is not lost myself (ala Breyfogle) which is embarrassing to say the least!

I think the Centenarios are perhaps the most beautiful gold coins Mexico ever minted - here is what they look like, for anyone interested: (NOT mine, only wish it were!)
50%20pesogoldsmall.jpg

In good condition these coins are selling in the $1300+ range (each) so finding twenty of them would be quite a treasure, in my world. Of course in my world, gold and silver are "real money" so carries more weight in my view than paper/plastic currency that devalues on a daily basis.

Cubfan thank you for the kind words - but I am no expert on Tayopa, in fact I have never been prospecting/treasure hunting in Mexico. I do admit that I always wanted to search for it, right up until I learned someone has found it - our mutual friend you-know-who! I do hope to get to visit Tayopa with our amigo in the not-too-distant future though, even if it means riding a mule! ;D :o ::) ;D
Oroblanco
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Good morning peeps: I am afraid that I am indirectly responsible for Annie not posting. Since there were some obvious discrepancies, I PM'd him, which I generally do in order to not em barass anyone, explaining why. He apparently took it the wrong way, as a personal attack, and didn't respond very nicely.

I will commit a breach of confidence to post part of his PM response to me, and attempt to explain what I sent to him.

Quote -->i thought i had something to offer,but i realize that i was wrong. however,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the contrary Lil O Annie, you posted many things of great value for all.
**************************************************************************************

You quoted -->

i also dont see any logical correlation between guaynopa tayopa gloria pan tepoca la tarasca la pima etc thats hogwash
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Possibly, this is why you should return to posting, so we can clarify this point.
*************************************************************************************

You posted -->

i have maps that has tayopa printed clearly on them ,as well as a trail leading down off of the east slope of mesa campanero, below it says tayopa ,ruins,what can i say?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personally I would love to see this - And you thought that you had something to contribute? You certainly do ! Get back in here and to work my friend.
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

in my mind to find a treasure ,you have to prove that it existed in the first place/ secondly you have to prove that it hasnt been found// then you have to find it your self
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree 100%, this is precisely why the -->

,"i also dont see any logical correlation between guaynopa tayopa gloria pan tepoca la tarasca la pima etc thats hogwash"

-- is soo important and was necessary..
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

/i wish you the best in your search, but it is obvious that you have serious doubts or you wouldnt be so defensive in responding to a rookie as myself or with jealous sentiment about my being a successful theasure hunter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now you have me very curious on those points. As a successful Treasure hunter you have much to contribute, so please do so. I am sure that the others are very interested also
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

. i ask you to please do not write me again ,while i try to find out how to remove myself from this forum
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am obliquely conforming to your request and posting in here, in a way of publically apologizing if I have said anything improper or that could be misinterpreted.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Cubfan64

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Anyone who spends time on public forums knows how easy it is to misinterpret remarks made. When you combine the lack of face to face communication (and the facial expressions and intonations) with the anonymity of posting under an assumed name and then discuss topics such as treasure hunting where people often have fairly strong pre-conceived theories and beliefs, it's very easy to take things personally.

I've found that the best thing to do is just take a couple days off to put things in perspective, take it to PM's (as you both did) and if nothing else, agree to disagree and move on.

I think everyone has something of value they can add to these discussions and I hope your private and public apology for any misunderstandings you may have had brings LOA back.

As long as an apology is given and accepted, it's easy to move on with a clean slate. It's different imho when an apology is never forthcoming - in those cases, it's an easy decision (at least for me) to not respond to that person's comments again.

Hope LOA rejoins us.
 

Nov 8, 2004
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HJIO PEEPS: I receieved an exceptioally nice PM from Lilorphanannie, He will be back, but since he doesn't own a computer, as he mentioed, it is a bit difficult for him. Patience, he does have a tremendous amt of excellent data to offer.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Nov 8, 2004
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HOLA LIL Orphan annie: If you are near Obregon, I have just set up my grandsons in a Cyber Net Cafe with 10 excellent computers with 21" flat screen monitors. You are welcome to use one as long as you wish for free.

If you do not live there, let me know how to contact you, and I will send you the money to use one near you.

You have a lot to contribute and I would love to hear it.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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