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  1. #1096
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    sprailroad

    Jan 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl-NC View Post
    Hard to believe this thread is almost 9 years old, and in 9 years nothing useful has come out of it. I briefly jumped in 7 years ago because of some really bad information getting posted, but quickly gave up because the bad just kept getting worse.

    Les, are those videos the state-of-the-art? I don't know whether to file them under Bad Photography 101 or Wishful Thinking 101. Either works. A quote near the end of Part 2 sums up the sad state of the situation: "We have experimented with this for about 2 or 3 years and are still scratching our heads." He could have just said, "We don't know what the heck we're doing."

    Is this the best it gets? Anything to look forward to in the next 9 years?
    NINE years now? OK. Here's a thought for Carl and Tom, apparently fella's you have not obtained a copy of "The Successful Treasure Hunters SECRET manual" as mentioned in post # 5 by Midas. You do not have the SECRETS needed! Problem solved, glad I could be of some help.

  2. #1097
    us
    Jan 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by boogeyman View Post
    OK, jeeze this is getting old with you. Lessee if I can dumb it down a little more for ya.

    Have I made any claims? No. That's been determined. Ok, set that aside so you don't get confused.

    OK, pay attention here, read it twice if you need to. Have you made a claim? Yes. You claim this system doesn't or couldn't work. Ok, I'm asking you to provide proof of >your< claim. Now we're talking about the claim >you< made. This is why the burden of proof is on you. Do you expect us to provide proof of your claim? Take ownership of your claim. Think you understand now? If you can't then I guess we can assume your claim is false or that's the only thing left to keep your ego inflated. Come on Sheldon! I know you can do it! I just know you aren't that dense. Oh please do it without dissecting this line by line, we know what's all about. Just another tool to spin things eh?
    The lack of belief does not equal a claim of anything. It simply says I have not received any evidence to support your claim enough to be proven. The burden of proof is presented when someone says "hey this does that" or claims "this is a fact". The people asserting this is true will never ever ever be believed until submit their beliefs to the proper scrutiny of the scientific method. The scientific method I remind you is not just cherry picking info and plugging it into your theory. It often means actively trying to disprove your own theory and adjusting it for variable and information achieved during testing. You need REPEATABLE AND RELIABLE results before you can even claim any theory to have a hint of validity. EVEN THEN you results could be flawed from any number of factors. In which case you test for any factors you can think of and use ALL of this information, not just what fits your narrative the best. I often wonder how many dowsers and such also believe in flat earth. They both seem to follow the same rationality of how they "prove" their theory but ignore any and all evidence that might not fit their narrative.
    Tom_in_CA likes this.

  3. #1098

    Mar 2007
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    Lesjcbs, thanx for taking the time to track down the post #s you feel carry the most evidence. I've studied all those post #s . I appreciate your time to give me what-you-see as evidence. Really.

    I'll comment on several of them individually. But for the rest, they .... in my opinion, are lumped into Carl's explanation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl-NC View Post
    .....you personally get to manipulate the image until it fits what you want to see.....
    What that means is: If you take 1000 pix of a known spot, then eventually, you'll find some anomaly or blotch that you attribute to the camera seeing the buried object . It is failing to explain A) that blotches and anomalies appear on various other pix where no metal is present, and B) fails to explain why it can't be replicated/repeated. Thus I write them off to random chance. Dust particles being "orbs" that drift past the camera lens. Or lights that streak in from left or right into the pix, etc...

    In #42, #416, & #627 Where Midas & Real de Tayopa shows actual coins as a result of the process : In Midas case: A camera was used. In Real de Tayopa's case: Luminous gasses/lights (popular lore in Mexico). These could be d/t they took their devices/beliefs to a spot already suspected . Eg.: field where it's known that old coins have been found with md'ing. Or in Real's case: A story/suspicion already in place (eg.: "such and such is suspected to be here via historical citations. So someone goes there , and imagines lights and fumes in their mind). Real de Tayopa & I have had long talks on this. And he concedes that lot of the lore & superstition down there, is just that: Lore & superstition.

    Then they turn on a detector to "pinpoint". Then lo & behold, finds metal. Can you see how this could just be random chance turning on a detector in a spot-already-suspected ?

    And I know the probable response: SO TOO DO MD'rs HEAD OUT TO THE MOST LIKELY SPOT to test new detectors, right ? Eg.: stage stops, ruins, old defunct picnic resorts, etc... Hence why do we hold the double standard against the unconventional method promoters ? Why shouldn't they, likewise, be testing the instruments at "the most likely spots"? Just like an md'r would do. Right ?

    Ok, sure. But can you see how it can still lend itself to the "eventual random odds" in "spots already likely". And that even without the camera, if Midas had simply gone md'ing in the field, He would likely have found the same exact objects. Remember: There's SO much history in England, that they often time don't even have to do research to find coins-in-fields. Just simply ANY continuously cultivated field there , that's had 2k years of cultivation, ... if you walk around with a detector long enough, you'll find metal. Maybe even a few good coins. That's exactly what the British hunters do.

    #51 is a skeptics post view. Not sure why you listed that page #

    #691 I already commented on this in post # 1068

    I could go to any of those photos, find similar anomalies (light spots, blurs, etc...) and equally say: What's there ? How is that blotch any different than the one you circled where you'd buried a bar or coins somewhere else in the pix ? You see how this is just the memory bias trick ?

    And on some with blaring lights on a spot in the ground, it almost looks as if they were using a flash ! Or if not, won't a divot in/on ground (where you just buried something, hence ground un-even) affect with shadows ?

  4. #1099

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprailroad View Post
    .... "The Successful Treasure Hunters SECRET manual" as mentioned in post # 5 by Midas. You do not have the SECRETS needed!.....
    Wish I had the book. Would love to critique and analyze it . You seem to allude to "secrets" it has, that will resolve the debate. Right ? Wonder why none of the "secrets" have come out here on 74 pages of nearly 1100 posts ??

  5. #1100
    us
    Mar 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprailroad View Post
    apparently fella's you have not obtained a copy of "The Successful Treasure Hunters SECRET manual" as mentioned in post # 5 by Midas.
    No, I have it. It's full of the same awful photos. Very sloppily written. Also have Matacia's book (Finding Treasure Auras). Equally useless.

  6. #1101

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl-NC View Post
    No, I have it. It's full of the same awful photos......
    I wondered why .... if it held the smoking gun proof (ie.: the "secrets"), that the info simply didn't just come out here. I suspected it would be more of the same as what we've seen here . Namely, more plausible explanations and wishful thinking. But ... want to be fair. So in my post #1099, I did not want to come out and say "It will probably be more of the same inconclusive material". Because as long as I haven't read it personally, that opinion would have been dismissed out of hand.

  7. #1102
    us
    Jul 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl-NC View Post
    Hard to believe this thread is almost 9 years old, and in 9 years nothing useful has come out of it. I briefly jumped in 7 years ago because of some really bad information getting posted, but quickly gave up because the bad just kept getting worse.

    Les, are those videos the state-of-the-art? I don't know whether to file them under Bad Photography 101 or Wishful Thinking 101. Either works. A quote near the end of Part 2 sums up the sad state of the situation: "We have experimented with this for about 2 or 3 years and are still scratching our heads." He could have just said, "We don't know what the heck we're doing."

    Is this the best it gets? Anything to look forward to in the next 9 years?
    Folks:


    Forthose of you who have been following this thread, you will know thatI have said that if you follow Tom or Carl or anyone else like themfor that matter, you will get nowhere with this technique. Here iswhy. In this post above that I reply with a quote, Carl says thatseven years ago, “HE GAVE UP.” In other words he QUIT. Dear reader, do quitters ever learn or win?


    Inpost # 1038, Tom lists things we know about skeptics on this subject. One is they will not learn. He is correct. Tom has written he will not buy Midas'book. This is another way of saying he is not willing to learn. Dear reader, can anyone learn anything at all from a closed book?


    Ihave said ti before and I say it again here, If you follow Carl orTom, YOU WILL GET NO WHERE WITH THIS TECHNIQUE!


    Thanksfor the revelations Tom and Carl.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  8. #1103
    us
    Jul 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Wish I had the book. Would love to critique and analyze it . You seem to allude to "secrets" it has, that will resolve the debate. Right ? Wonder why none of the "secrets" have come out here on 74 pages of nearly 1100 posts ??
    Actually they are but because you refuse to read the book, you don't and never will recognize them until you do.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  9. #1104

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    ....., Carl says thatseven years ago, “HE GAVE UP.” In other words he QUIT. Dear reader, do quitters ever learn or win?


    Inpost # 1038, Tom lists things we know about skeptics on this subject. One is they will not learn. He is correct. Tom has written he will not buy Midas'book. This is another way of saying he is not willing to learn.....
    Lesjcbs, don't you see the logical fallacy here again ? I've pointed it out to you before, and you continue to perpetuate it. And here it is:

    Everything you've said in your post # 1102 is true ! Yes, can you believe I've said that ? Yup, it's true. Carl and Tom are close-minded , refuse to learn, gave up, quit, etc...

    *HOWEVER* to make your post #1102 to be true, there's one slight detail we must assume: That the claim works. That cameras CAN be made to find gold. If that statement is true, then yes, everything else you're saying is true. Hence pity poor Carl and me.

    *BUT WAIT A MINUTE* : Isn't that what we're discussing in the first place ? Is: "Does it work ?" Thus the only thing your post does, is to fall afoul (again) of the logical fallacy of:

    "Assuming what one is trying to prove, as evidence of their proof for it".


    Your statement only makes sense when/if we assume your starting premise. Then, sure, it's true. But since when has that been proven ? Carl has your book. He's commented fairly on it. I've seen the evidence here on this forum (which, correct me if I'm wrong, the book is just more-of-the-same according to Carl).

    If it's got something better than blotchy inconsistent random blob/blur photographs, then by all means, I'm game to see it.

    But alas, I bet that even if you sent me the book, or I bought it, and dis-assembled it page by page with more plausible explanations , random odds, and wishful thinking, that you would summarily dismiss me. And if I tried it and found that it didn't work, you'd say I "need more practice". If Carl tried it for a week with no results, then that merely means he needed 2 weeks. If he tried for 2 weeks with no results, then he should try for 4 weeks. If not in 4 weeks, then 4 months. And so on till infinity. AT NO POINT does it ever "not work". It merely means "need more practice". After all: Arnold Palmer and Tiger Woods didn't become professional golfers over-night. Right ?

    Thus it will be impossible to dis-prove it to you. Contrast to us (speaking for myself): I am VERY willing to be "taught" and "shown the evidence", if something compelling, with no other more rationale more likely more plausible explanations weren't at play.

  10. #1105

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    Actually they are but because you refuse to read the book, you don't and never will recognize them until you do.
    Ok, so you dismiss me because I don't "buy the book". But guaranteed: It wouldn't make a difference even if I did, and even if I read it, and even if I tried it. Carl has done all of that, and you summarily dismiss him. So as you can see, it will do no good. You will keep "moving the goal posts".

  11. #1106
    us
    Mar 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    Carl says thatseven years ago, “HE GAVE UP.” In other words he QUIT.
    Les, I gave up posting on this thread because of all the Horribly Wrong information being tossed about with no room or tolerance for RealScience. Weren't worth my time.

    I've been messing around with aura photos off&on for over 10 years. Started with the SX70. Did some work with digital point-n-shoot, then DSLR. I've yet to see any results that even give a hint of being anything useful, especially when comparing photos of buried targets with photos of non-targets (dog turds). Results are the same. You could try that, too, if you're really interested in learning.

    I now work for a company that not only makes metal detectors, but also night vision products. Both consumer near-IR and military thermal stuff. My next step is to do some tests with modified night vision. Even though my own testing has convinced me that treasure auras are completely bogus, I do think that IR techniques can still be useful in analyzing ground density. Maybe applied to treasure hunting. But I'll also continue to look at the fringe claims just for funsies, and also because I'm writing a book on fringe-claim treasure hunting methods. Stuff people believes works, but doesn't. The make-believe methods.

  12. #1107

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl-NC View Post
    .....I've been messing around with aura photos off&on for over 10 years. ..... I've yet to see any results that even give a hint of being anything useful, ...... Results are the same. ....
    Well this simply means you didn't practice long enough. (or weren't doing it right, etc...) 10 yrs. must've not been enough. You should give it 15 yrs. And if in 15 yrs. the results still show nothing conclusive, then it merely means you need 20 yrs. And so on, till infinity. NEVER GIVE UP. Keep trying. Otherwise you're a "quitter" who "refuses to learn" Get with the game here Carl .

  13. #1108
    us
    Jun 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    Actually they are but because you refuse to read the book, you don't and never will recognize them until you do.
    Hey les, sent you a PM tellme what you think!
    I know it's here, just need a bigger coil!

    I think I know what my last words will be....
    "Hold my beer and watch this!"

  14. #1109
    us
    Jun 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Well this simply means you didn't practice long enough. (or weren't doing it right, etc...) 10 yrs. must've not been enough. You should give it 15 yrs. And if in 15 yrs. the results still show nothing conclusive, then it merely means you need 20 yrs. And so on, till infinity. NEVER GIVE UP. Keep trying. Otherwise you're a "quitter" who "refuses to learn" Get with the game here Carl .
    Ok Tom, Not sure if you're selective editing again. You're right! This thread has been going for around ten years! Let me do a little dissection here. OK, ten years out of that ten years I've maybe put in less than ummm 10 or 15 days all told. Ok, how in the heck can you expect me to be arrogant enough to make a claim either way without putting in the work. Sorry pal 10 days don't cut it. That's why I've made no claims. You always seem to selectively forget that fact. And before you go off on that route, nope didn't make OPs claim! It sounded interesting so decided to go down the path & experiment, still going down the path & experimenting.

    Just my observation here. You're like a little attention starved child. Kind of like when you go to a family gathering and are having a nice conversation, and here's little Tommy jumping on everyone's shoes interrupting. You wish his dad would give him a little prod & tell him to go outside and play so the grownups can talk. OK we get it! You don't have anything positive to say on this subject! Once again we started out trying to share ideas & trade notes not some big debate complete with twisting dissecting etc. Do something useful! See if the mods will give you something like "Toms Debating Forum" or start a debating thread. I truly wonder how many visit this thread with good ideas or something to share and don't even bother because they don't want to deal with Toms antics.
    I know it's here, just need a bigger coil!

    I think I know what my last words will be....
    "Hold my beer and watch this!"

  15. #1110
    us
    Jun 2006
    Out in the hills near wherendaheckarwe
    WHITES, MINELAB, Garrett
    4,237
    2890 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Les sent you a PM tell me what you think.
    Thanks,
    Boogeyman
    I know it's here, just need a bigger coil!

    I think I know what my last words will be....
    "Hold my beer and watch this!"

 

 
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