1783 King George III "GEORGIVS" backwards "S" UPDATE ID 25-83A OMG!
Went exploring for new spots on Sunday with my brother-in law, DigginitRTB. You would never know this place was there, only 20-30 yds. off the main trail we walk on. We found a stone wall running approx. 100 yds. long along the side of the main trail and thought it was part of a close by foundation. Thought we would check it out anyway and Rich said he thought he found what was a cellar hole. Called me over and sure enough it was. Found a nice button, a trigger guard to an old musket, and this King George III 1783 copper. Couple things are different on this one. The "S" in GEORGIVS is backwards,(almost looks like a "2"), the 3 in the date is slightly seperated from the rest of the date, and the dot after "REX" is below the bust. The shirt or breast of King George is also different from the dies I've looked at. More or less looks like a series of 6 crescent moons. sorry the scans don't look that good but there is alot of detail left on this coin. Also, the back shield is tipped more than the other die varieties I've looked at. Can someone help with ID on this one? Thanks HOGGE Saw 2 other posts from Sunday with King George coppers. Musta been the day for these! UPDATE: In recent days this coin has been positively ID'd as a CFT 25-83A one of ONLY 3,(mine being the third), known to exist. I would first like to thank Iron Patch, and Don in SJ, for without their time and help this would NOT have been possible.This site is AWESOME! And would also like to acknowledge the help of PBK and Jeff of PA with the help on my British Belt Tip. Through Don's knowledge and contacts in the Colonial Collectors world, a DEFINITE, POSITIVE, ID on this coin was possible. Byron Weston of PSU, and Gary Trudgen of "The Colonial Coin Collectors Club" have ID'd this coin and want to do a write up for the C4 Newsletter and Colonial Newsletter on this discovery. I WILL be attending the C4 Convention in Boston the week of Nov. 14-17 with the Ryder 7 Vermont, the British Cartridge Box Belt Tip, the 25-83A, and other CFT coppers found this yr. Tony Carlotto will be contacted to take some better pics and do weight and measurements for them for the newsletter. From what these guys are telling me, over the past couple of days with numerous EMails, the example I have is in better condition than the second known example. They want to compare weight, diameter, and die rotation to the other examples. This whole run of LUCK I've had in the last month has been like a dream. There are several people these guys want me to see, and talk to when I attend the C4. I can't wait! THIS COIN IS IN BETTER CONDITION THAN THE SCAN SHOWS! I HATE MY SCANNER! Anyways, Good Luck to all, and many Thanks to ALL who helped me!
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
How sure you are on the date?... a 1783 Geo. III copper means good. (Geo. III regal issue is 1770-1775)
Compare to the Machin's Mills, 1783 is extr. rare.
1783 25-83A Extremely Rare
Does it have the tipped shield and the backwards "S"? The 3 is slightly seperated from the rest of the date. I'm going to take it to Tony Carlotto tomarrow as I will be in our "South County" on some service calls for my business. I am 98% sure it is a 3. The top of the 3 is smaller than the bottom and the bottom is open and pointed at the bottom , not rounded up. Does this help? The more I look ,I'm 100% sure it is a "3".
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
How sure you are on the date?... a 1783 Geo. III copper means good. (Geo. III regal issue is 1770-1775)
Compare to the Machin's Mills, 1783 is extr. rare.
1783 25-83A Extremely Rare
Does it have the tipped shield and the backwards "S"? The 3 is slightly seperated from the rest of the date. I'm going to take it to Tony Carlotto tomarrow as I will be in our "South County" on some service calls for my business. I am 98% sure it is a 3. The top of the 3 is smaller than the bottom and the bottom is open and pointed at the bottom , not rounded up. Does this help?
There's two problems you have to deal with...
#1 The 1783 Machin's Mills is rare enough the redbook has no listing and Breen & Coinfacts do not show a picture. Comparing might be a bit of a task.
# 2 If your friend is not an expert on Contemporary counterfeit halfpence he will be of very little use to you if that's what you have.
PS... I'm sure your friend will probably have the answer but if not let me know, I can get it.
How sure you are on the date?... a 1783 Geo. III copper means good. (Geo. III regal issue is 1770-1775)
Compare to the Machin's Mills, 1783 is extr. rare.
1783 25-83A Extremely Rare
Does it have the tipped shield and the backwards "S"? The 3 is slightly seperated from the rest of the date. I'm going to take it to Tony Carlotto tomarrow as I will be in our "South County" on some service calls for my business. I am 98% sure it is a 3. The top of the 3 is smaller than the bottom and the bottom is open and pointed at the bottom , not rounded up. Does this help?
There's two problems you have to deal with...
#1 The 1783 Machin's Mills is rare enough the redbook has no listing and Breen & Coinfacts do not show a picture. Comparing might be a bit of a task.
# 2 If your friend is not an expert on Contemporary counterfeit halfpence he will be of very little use to you if that's what you have.
PS... I'm sure your friend will probably have the answer but if not let me know, I can get it.
Thanks Iron Patch......Tony Carlotto wrote the book.."Copper Coins of Vermont" and is probably one of the best experts of counterfeits we have in the area. Don from South Jersey knows him well. I was going to take a couple of the other counterfeits I have to him but I think I'll take this one to him first.
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
How sure you are on the date?... a 1783 Geo. III copper means good. (Geo. III regal issue is 1770-1775)
Compare to the Machin's Mills, 1783 is extr. rare.
1783 25-83A Extremely Rare
Does it have the tipped shield and the backwards "S"? The 3 is slightly seperated from the rest of the date. I'm going to take it to Tony Carlotto tomarrow as I will be in our "South County" on some service calls for my business. I am 98% sure it is a 3. The top of the 3 is smaller than the bottom and the bottom is open and pointed at the bottom , not rounded up. Does this help?
There's two problems you have to deal with...
#1 The 1783 Machin's Mills is rare enough the redbook has no listing and Breen & Coinfacts do not show a picture. Comparing might be a bit of a task.
# 2 If your friend is not an expert on Contemporary counterfeit halfpence he will be of very little use to you if that's what you have.
PS... I'm sure your friend will probably have the answer but if not let me know, I can get it.
Thanks Iron Patch......Tony Carlotto wrote the book.."Copper Coins of Vermont" and is probably one of the best experts of counterfeits we have in the area. Don from South Jersey knows him well. I was going to take a couple of the other counterfeits I have to him but I think I'll take this one to him first.
Then you'll definitely get the answer. If your sure it's 1783 no matter which way you slice it it's a good find.
UPDATE: Took this to Tony Carlotto and he ID'd it as a 1783, BUT IS NOT MACHIN MILLS. He said was hand made counterfeit. He also said was in nice shape. I guess there are several collectors doing studies on these different varieties of counterfeits for publication. Oh well, a nice find but my luck had to run out sometime! Almost thought I had another BANNER find! LOL...........Hogge
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
UPDATE: Took this to Tony Carlotto and he ID'd it as a 1783, BUT IS NOT MACHIN MILLS. He said was hand made counterfeit. He also said was in nice shape. I guess there are several collectors doing studies on these different varieties of counterfeits for publication. Oh well, a nice find but my luck had to run out sometime! Almost thought I had another BANNER find! LOL...........Hogge
If you're thinking your luck has run out you don't understand the demand for some of these counterfeits. The condition obviously hurts you but 1783 is not a common date and is a good (and lucky) find.
I just got done talking with the individual doing one of the papers that Tony was referring to and he also said there are two coins with a backward S, one a British Halfpenny and the other a Irish Halfpenny. He has your photo and will study it more when he gets to another computer, his is on the fritz.
IP is so correct, although yours is rather rough condition, it still demands some interest I am sure, in the collector world. I will post any new news from my contact doing the paper, which includes those particular counterfeits.
Don
"The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
The value will increase with judicious cleaning."
I just got done talking with the individual doing one of the papers that Tony was referring to and he also said there are two coins with a backward S, one a British Halfpenny and the other a Irish Halfpenny. He has your photo and will study it more when he gets to another computer, his is on the fritz.
IP is so correct, although yours is rather rough condition, it still demands some interest I am sure, in the collector world. I will post any new news from my contact doing the paper, which includes those particular counterfeits.
Don
Wow! That may be one special kind of find! You are really tearing it up out there!!
I combined your photos and tried lightening and few other things to hopefully bring out more detail, unfortunetly I cannot make out the backward S or the date.
Don
"The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
The value will increase with judicious cleaning."
OUCH! Thanks for trying but I'm glad it didn't come out of the ground like that. LOL!
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
Wow dude, I want to just stand near you so the detecting genes will hopefully osmose into me. You have a knack for finding excellent artifacts, way to go.
Just want to let you know that your 1783 is perhaps only one of now three possibly known, and it might even be a new variant of the other known ones. So, do not be disappointed in that it is "just" a non Machins Mills counterfeit........ I will PM you shortly about the coin.
Don
"The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
The value will increase with judicious cleaning."
Re: 1783 King George III "GEORGIVS" backwards "S" UPDATE ID 25-83A OMG!
My run of luck continues! What's next, the Mass. state lottery??
1783 CFT. KG III 1/2 Penny (25-83A)-1 of 3 known *Sold $3,750, Vermont Landscape Coppers Ryder 6 *Sold $760, Ryder7 (Avatar)** Sold $1,275*,1st Batt Royal Artillery Cartridge Box Sling Belt Tip,(3)- GW Inaugural Buttons-2-Cobb# 17-J.* Sold both--$405 and $400. *GW Button Cobb 17-I-*Sold $316- New Jersey Copper M14-J Sold $125- Continental Army Button *Sold $800.....To be continued
Re: 1783 King George III "GEORGIVS" backwards "S" UPDATE ID 25-83A OMG!
Congrats to Hogge on finding a counterfeit KGIII that is so far rarer than the 1784 Machins Mills copper Vlack 14-84A which always causes excitement in the colonial coin world when found. (Note, rarity like that does not always equate into more value, depends on collector interest, condition and demand)
Don
"The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
The value will increase with judicious cleaning."
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Can someone help with ID on this one? 
Thanks HOGGE Saw 2 other posts from Sunday with King George coppers. Musta been the day for these! UPDATE: In recent days this coin has been positively ID'd as a CFT 25-83A one of ONLY 3,(mine being the third), known to exist. I would first like to thank Iron Patch, and Don in SJ, for without their time and help this would NOT have been possible.This site is AWESOME! And would also like to acknowledge the help of PBK and Jeff of PA with the help on my British Belt Tip. Through Don's knowledge and contacts in the Colonial Collectors world, a DEFINITE, POSITIVE, ID on this coin was possible. Byron Weston of PSU, and Gary Trudgen of "The Colonial Coin Collectors Club" have ID'd this coin and want to do a write up for the C4 Newsletter and Colonial Newsletter on this discovery. I WILL be attending the C4 Convention in Boston the week of Nov. 14-17 with the Ryder 7 Vermont, the British Cartridge Box Belt Tip, the 25-83A, and other CFT coppers found this yr. Tony Carlotto will be contacted to take some better pics and do weight and measurements for them for the newsletter. From what these guys are telling me, over the past couple of days with numerous EMails, the example I have is in better condition than the second known example. They want to compare weight, diameter, and die rotation to the other examples. This whole run of LUCK I've had in the last month has been like a dream. There are several people these guys want me to see, and talk to when I attend the C4. I can't wait! THIS COIN IS IN BETTER CONDITION THAN THE SCAN SHOWS! I HATE MY SCANNER! Anyways, Good Luck to all, and many Thanks to ALL who helped me!
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Originally Posted by Iron Patch
