UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III!!!

[West Jersey Detecting]

UPDATE: SEE IRON PATCHES REPLY BELOW SHOWING THE PAGE FROM THE KRAUSE'S GUIDE!!!


The temps were supposed to approach 90 today, but I was seeing overcast skies out my window. After torrential downpours over the last two days, I thought the wet conditions would make it a good day to get out and detect; at least until it got too unbearably hot.

So I got my equipment together and got my Dunkin Donuts coffe and headed to my favorite site. I said to myself "today is the day I am going to find Spanish Silver." No lie. I really did. I could just feel it.

I worked areas that I have already worked and dug a few deep buttons. Then I got a very low whisper. I pinpointed and got a depth of 9 inches on my display, but no VDI or tone. I scrubbed the ground with the coil and got a little chirp. Usually this turns out to be deep iron, but I don't take chances at this site. I dug a nice sized plug and it was still in the hole. I was able to get a strong signal with my Garrett Pro Pointer, so I knew I could safely dig a deeper plug under the target with my Lesche.

Once I got it out, it gave the nice high VDI of a coin. I could not make out much, but I saw enough detail to guess what I had found.



The "NG" mint mark is from the Nueva Guatemala mint. It is my understanding that Half Reales are scarce from this mint. And the HS Counterstamp makes this even more special.



UPDATE: As I was looking closely at my find, I noticed a die variation. The IV appears to be stamped over III. SEE IRON PATCHES REPLY BELOW SHOWING THE PAGE FROM THE KRAUSE'S GUIDE!!!

 

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[West Jersey Detecting]

i hope you got a 50,000 dollor coin there neil .......you really put your time and effort in the hobbie buddy . good luck ........go n.j

I think I'd be hoping for a $500 coin and anything after that a bonus!

Agreed.

Now on a more negative note, here is the email from the so called "specialist" I mentioned earlier. It should be noted that I have spent a lot of time over the last 48 hours looking at examples of 1789 Pillar coins, and I do not see any signs of a IV over a III on any of them. This guy goes into the same bucket as most neighborhood coin shops who only know what they can read in the Red Book.

Neil,

I believe Krause might be in error there, because I think all the 1789 transitionals I have seen with IV are actually IV/III. In any case, whatever premium there might be is surely negated by the coin's poor condition (worn and holed).

However, the countermark might be a value-adder. Seems like I have seen it before, but I can't recall where. I will do a little sleuthing and if I come up with anything I will let you know. Chances are it is some colonial-era merchant mark.

 

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[Iron Patch]

i hope you got a 50,000 dollor coin there neil .......you really put your time and effort in the hobbie buddy . good luck ........go n.j

I think I'd be hoping for a $500 coin and anything after that a bonus!

Agreed.

Now on a more negative note, here is the email from the so called "specialist" I mentioned earlier. It should be noted that I have spent a lot of time over the last 48 hours looking at examples of 1789 Pillar coins, and I do not see any signs of a IV over a III on any of them. This guy goes into the same bucket as most neighborhood coin shops who only know what they can read in the Red Book.

Neil,

I believe Krause might be in error there, because I think all the 1789 transitionals I have seen with IV are actually IV/III. In any case, whatever premium there might be is surely negated by the coin's poor condition (worn and holed).

However, the countermark might be a value-adder. Seems like I have seen it before, but I can't recall where. I will do a little sleuthing and if I come up with anything I will let you know. Chances are it is some colonial-era merchant mark.

I think that is discounted by the other opinion you posted above saying the other book also shows dashes. He very well could be right about all the transitionals being IV/III, but the difference is the Krause lists a value for the 2 reales, and does not for the Half Reale. So he could be right and it simply means all transitional half reals are scarce.

 

[Iron Patch]

Neil... Here's a funny thought that just came to mind from reading your last post.

In the Fall of 2001 my friend found a token we didn't recognize and about two weeks later while flipping through a book looking for something else he came across his "unknown" listed as extremely rare. Being very excited he wrote a collector who lived across the country, but was someone we had got to know, and trust. The reply was not at all what my friend expected, quoting a reference number and saying it was worth maybe $100. About an hour past, all the while my friend thinking how the heck can that be, the main book says Extr. rare, but M___ says nothing special? Anyway, a short time later my friend received a 2nd email from our source saying he made a HUGE MISTAKE. Instead of actually opening his book, he thought he knew what it was by the description and quoted the wrong token! He then said he would be interested in it, but would probably have to sell his car to buy it. That Winter it did go to auction but didn't get what it could have because of the poor-corroded-cracked condition, but still did go in the thousands. The moral of the story is when you have something you feel is good you keep going (as you are) until you're 100% convinced you have the correct ID, rarity, and value.

 

[Iron Patch]

ah-oh I think I just ended the party and cancelled the after-party celebration. But it still is a scarce find, just doesn't hold much value. I'd still be very happy with it and now is easy to keep.

13659

"Colonial silver trio, KM41 1/2 Real 1789 NG-M. VF full clasp on the cloak, Carolus IV with bust of Carolus III, clearly IV/III (which is unpriced in the SCWC.) A rare little type which is undoubtly underrated in KM."

The three coin lot is only estimated at $100-$150.


I sent the link to Neil but is too long to post.

 

[Kirk PA]

The coin within itself is a great find and I don't think I would even care how rare or the worth of it was. Great Spanish silver, Neil!

Kirk

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

ah-oh I think I just ended the party and cancelled the after-party celebration. But it still is a scarce find, just doesn't hold much value. I'd still be very happy with it and now is easy to keep.

13659

"Colonial silver trio, KM41 1/2 Real 1789 NG-M. VF full clasp on the cloak, Carolus IV with bust of Carolus III, clearly IV/III (which is unpriced in the SCWC.) A rare little type which is undoubtly underrated in KM."

The three coin lot is only estimated at $100-$150.


I sent the link to Neil but is too long to post.

Here it is. http://tinyurl.com/29h72n6

I guess I should have showed up at work this morning!

Now I just have to investigate the counterstamp and hope that it is some well known figure!!

Thanks for your help IP!!

The coin within itself is a great find and I don't think I would even care how rare or the worth of it was. Great Spanish silver, Neil!

Kirk

I was tormented over whether or not I would sell, even if it was worth a few K. I have never sold a find, and now I can rest, knowing it is mine to keep!!

 

[Iron Patch]

ah-oh I think I just ended the party and cancelled the after-party celebration. But it still is a scarce find, just doesn't hold much value. I'd still be very happy with it and now is easy to keep.

13659

"Colonial silver trio, KM41 1/2 Real 1789 NG-M. VF full clasp on the cloak, Carolus IV with bust of Carolus III, clearly IV/III (which is unpriced in the SCWC.) A rare little type which is undoubtly underrated in KM."

The three coin lot is only estimated at $100-$150.


I sent the link to Neil but is too long to post.

Here it is. http://tinyurl.com/29h72n6

I guess I should have showed up at work this morning!

Now I just have to investigate the counterstamp and hope that it is some well known figure!!

Thanks for your help IP!!

The coin within itself is a great find and I don't think I would even care how rare or the worth of it was. Great Spanish silver, Neil!

Kirk

I was tormented over whether or not I would sell, even if it was worth a few K. I have never sold a find, and now I can rest, knowing it is mine to keep!!

Yep. When I started to like early military buttons but didn't know much about them, I found myself hoping my finds weren't worth much so I wouldn't be tempted to sell.

The really odd thing in all this is why those books don't have a value marked for the half real.

Anyway, still a good find and trying to figure this out was the closest thing to treasure hunting I've done in a while. Always learn a little something when things like this come up so it's cool.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

ah-oh I think I just ended the party and cancelled the after-party celebration. But it still is a scarce find, just doesn't hold much value. I'd still be very happy with it and now is easy to keep.

13659

"Colonial silver trio, KM41 1/2 Real 1789 NG-M. VF full clasp on the cloak, Carolus IV with bust of Carolus III, clearly IV/III (which is unpriced in the SCWC.) A rare little type which is undoubtly underrated in KM."

The three coin lot is only estimated at $100-$150.


I sent the link to Neil but is too long to post.

Here it is. http://tinyurl.com/29h72n6

I guess I should have showed up at work this morning!

Now I just have to investigate the counterstamp and hope that it is some well known figure!!

Thanks for your help IP!!

The coin within itself is a great find and I don't think I would even care how rare or the worth of it was. Great Spanish silver, Neil!

Kirk

I was tormented over whether or not I would sell, even if it was worth a few K. I have never sold a find, and now I can rest, knowing it is mine to keep!!

Yep. When I started to like early military buttons but didn't know much about them, I found myself hoping my finds weren't worth much so I wouldn't be tempted to sell.

The really odd thing in all this is why those books don't have a value marked for the half real.

Anyway, still a good find and trying to figure this out was the closest thing to treasure hunting I've done in a while. Always learn a little something when things like this come up so it's cool.

I think the research is (almost) half the fun!

 

[Iron Patch]

ah-oh I think I just ended the party and cancelled the after-party celebration. But it still is a scarce find, just doesn't hold much value. I'd still be very happy with it and now is easy to keep.

13659

"Colonial silver trio, KM41 1/2 Real 1789 NG-M. VF full clasp on the cloak, Carolus IV with bust of Carolus III, clearly IV/III (which is unpriced in the SCWC.) A rare little type which is undoubtly underrated in KM."

The three coin lot is only estimated at $100-$150.


I sent the link to Neil but is too long to post.

Here it is. http://tinyurl.com/29h72n6

I guess I should have showed up at work this morning!

Now I just have to investigate the counterstamp and hope that it is some well known figure!!

Thanks for your help IP!!

The coin within itself is a great find and I don't think I would even care how rare or the worth of it was. Great Spanish silver, Neil!

Kirk

I was tormented over whether or not I would sell, even if it was worth a few K. I have never sold a find, and now I can rest, knowing it is mine to keep!!

Yep. When I started to like early military buttons but didn't know much about them, I found myself hoping my finds weren't worth much so I wouldn't be tempted to sell.

The really odd thing in all this is why those books don't have a value marked for the half real.

Anyway, still a good find and trying to figure this out was the closest thing to treasure hunting I've done in a while. Always learn a little something when things like this come up so it's cool.

I think the research is (almost) half the fun!

No question about it. In some ways my first few years digging was the most fun because almost every time out I'd come back with something I had to figure out. These days that happens less and less, and is almost to the point of not at all. What I mean by that is I might not know exactly what it is, but would recognize a British Militia as such and not be pumped thinking I might have found a good Rev War one. I used to like that feeling/high for the rest of the hunt thinking I might have something good.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

One more note on this one. Don in SJ was kind enough to do a little digging for me and was able to find some info.
Here is the email that he forwarded to me:

Hi Don

Thanks for writing with the interesting coin.

It is a Guatemala 1/2 real from 1789 a transitional year. The old kind Charles III died that year and mintage began at the Guatemala mint before word of the death arrived. Instead of preparing new dies, the new king's ordinal, IV, was punched over the old one. The bust is still Charles III though.

The piece is rather scarce, that's why it is not priced in Krause. I have seen about 5 or six examples, the latest was a nice midgrade example that sold for $150 in early July at a Spanish auction. The hole is a problem, greatly reducing the value, but the countermark is interesting. I have not been able to find exactly what the countermark is, and that could be very positive in regards to value. If the countermark proves to be rare, coupled with a low denomination, scarce host coin, it could be worth a little something. But I can't ultimately tell without doing more research on the mark.

I hope that helps; thanks for sharing.
Doug

Now the task for finding out who HS was continues.....

 

[N.J.THer]

The plot thickens...

Good luck with the hunt for HS.

NJ

 

[Mackaydon]

Could the mark be 'HSP' as in Hispania or another merchants mark?

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Could the mark be 'HSP' as in Hispania or another merchants mark?

For a minute you had me looking closely as it looks like there could have been a third letter, but upon closer examination you can see the serrated cartouche outline and there are only the H and the S.

 

[Mackaydon]

Thanks for the pic; now I see EIS is possible. My eyes are playing tricks.