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Thread: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

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  1. #1
    us
    Jul 2008
    New Hampshire
    Whites Prizm III
    24
    14 times

    2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Well I cannot lie these buttons were found inside a barn here in N.H. in a old mason jar with some others. One is a silver gilt phoenix ball button number 2 with all of its silver still. These are all as found as I did not try to clean anything. The other is a no. 29 phoenix button. There is a unidentified eagle button and two navy buttons. Some other misc buttons one is wood with COX on back. I love these old buttons and could not pass them up. Any info is appreciated and if you need more pics of any of the buttons for ID let me know.
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  2. #2
    us
    Jul 2008
    New Hampshire
    Whites Prizm III
    24
    14 times

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    more buttons
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  3. #3

    Mar 2008
    snow hill, MD
    Fisher F70
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Awesome find, treasure is where you find it, dose not need to be found detecting.
    A2coins likes this.

  4. #4

    Jun 2007
    MA NH seacoast
    what ever works
    819
    37 times

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Cool buttons
    A2coins likes this.

  5. #5
    ca
    Detect everyday like it's your last day!

    Apr 2010
    Southern Ontario
    XP Deus, Garrett AT PRO, Lesche - Piranha 35 Shovel, 'Garrett Carrot' AT - Pointer
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Wow! Congrats on your finds bassmstr
    You couldn't ask for them to be in better shape than these are in.
    A2coins likes this.
    “I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
    “Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway.”
    “Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.”
    ― John Wayne

  6. #6
    Charter Member

    May 2005
    Maine
    Minelab Etrac Fisher F75 SE
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    27 times
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Those buttons are great. Thats a great find.
    A2coins likes this.

  7. #7
    us
    My Find of a Lifetime!

    Oct 2006
    Philadelphia Area
    White's V3i, MX Sport, Minelab Excalibur 1000, Teknetics T2 SE
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Here is some info on the Phoenix buttons:


    Henry Christophe became the king of Haiti in 1807. For 12 years prior to this Haitian slaves revolted against their European masters and in this timeframe defeated the English, Spanish and French. In 1802 the French anchored 225 ships in the harbor with 60,000 troops to put down the revolt. The Haitians were greatly outmanned and outgunned, but somehow managed to defeat the French, and by 1803 the French army was spent. Thomas Jefferson quickly took advantage of Napoleon and a French army in desperate need of cash, and convinced him to sell the Louisiana territory for 15 million dollars. Known as the Louisiana Purchase, this was probably the greatest land bargain in history.

    Christophe reigned as king until 1820 when he became ill, and was too weak to put down a coup. He committed suicide that same year. The phoenix was Christophe's coat of arms. All of his troops were outfitted with uniform buttons and buckles with this phoenix design. The numbers at the bottom of the buttons denoted the regiment number. The buttons are numbered 1-30 with 11-13, 15-19 and 21-24 being skipped. There is no concrete evidence of why these numbers were skipped. One theory is they were skipped intentionally to fool enemies into believing the army was larger than it really was.

    At this point thehistory of the Phoenix Button becomes somewhat cloudy. After Christophe's death the button maker or makers apparentlysold the undelivered buttons to a trading company bound for the West Coast ofthe United States. Very little information is available about the manufacturerof these buttons. The only buttons with backmarks are the ball variety, and allare backmarked "BUSHBY LONDON." No records have been found on thisEnglish company, so whether they were the only maker is unclear.

    Nathaniel Wyeth a traderof the time was in the process of setting up a trading post on Sauvies Islandnear present day Portland, Oregon. It is generally accepted that he was the onethat the buttons were sold to in England. One of the ships believed to be carryingthe buttons made a stop in Hawaii, and one of the buttons was found in Hawaiiseveral years ago. The mysterious thing is, the regimental number on the buttonhas never been found anywhere else.

    Almost all of thebuttons made their way to Wyeth's trading post. Here they were believed to betraded to the Indians for furs and salmon. The Indians in turn traded withother tribes, and eventually the buttons made their way up and down the WestCoast. The buttons have been found at period sites from Alaska to SouthernCalifornia. Of the 10 or so buttons that have been reported east of the RockyMountains, 3 have come from Virginia. Why this is, is anyone's guess. Theremaining buttons have been single finds in various states. These single lossescould easily be explained as being lost by people making their way back fromthe West Coast. However, the 3 in Virginia would suggest some kind of linkbetween the original source and Virginia.
    Much of the acceptedtheory on the Phoenix Buttons can be accredited to Emory Strong, who was abutton collector and amateur archaeologist from the Portland Oregon area. Hepassed away several years ago, and not much research has been done since. Hedevised a system to describe the buttons based on the different types. The discstyle buttons came in 3 sizes: 17, 25 and 26mm, and were made of polishedbrass. They were 1 piece die stamped brass buttons with a soldered backloop. The ball variety came in two sizes; 13 and 17mm and were made of copperwith a silver gilting. Strong's system puts the buttons into 3 types, with typeI and II having 3 styles. Type I is the button found most, and all of thephotos in this article are type I except the ball variety. Type 2 is similar totype I except between the bird and regiment number am a crossed cannon andmortar. Type III is the ball variety of button. The system was designed todescribe a button with out having to write all of the details out. Example:II3s2 would be a type II, style 3 small, regiment number 2.


  8. #8
    us
    Jul 2008
    New Hampshire
    Whites Prizm III
    24
    14 times

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Thanks for the kind words everyone. These were in a barn from a house that was built in 1780. The house served as a inn and tavern for from 1800 until about 1875. Lots of history here and I have waited patiently to hunt it. The house is up for sale and is empty at this time. I know the real estate woman and she said no holes so the detector was out but I was free to look around the property. I know the buttons are spread out over a huge time period but it makes me wonder how these came to be on the east coast and why in such good shape. My only thoughts are a guest lost the back then or maybe from Indian trade. I guess these are treasure even though they are not dug and since I am not a huge button collector I will probably list these two. Still interested in the ID of any of the other military buttons if they are military. Thanks again....
    A2coins likes this.

  9. #9

    Nov 2007
    ,M.X.T.& Tesoro Tejon
    9,718
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Tom -in_Ca,on here is an expert on these and will be interested in talking to you I am sure.Those do not show up very often outside of the west coast!I will pass the link on to him
    A2coins likes this.
    M.X.T , Tesoro Tejon



    "A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than a gun in the hands of 200 million law-abiding citizens."

  10. #10
    us
    ray.b

    Jun 2010
    Middle,Tennessee
    Detectors used: Garrett GTI 2500 and Garrett Ace 250,Garrett Treasure-Ace 200(retired) with Garrett PRO-POINTER
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Those buttons are great.Awesome finds
    A2coins likes this.


  11. #11

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
    12,297
    8481 times
    Banner Finds (4)

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    gee kuger, thanx for the new title

    Bassmster, Neils citation gives a good overview. That text/article has circulated on the net for quite some time now. It is drawn from the work of Emory Strong, who wrote on indian history of the Pac. NW area (OR/WA). A chapter in his books, from decades ago, dealt with contact era indian trade items. And the source and history of the buttons talked about there, has become pretty much the accepted theory.

    France tried to retake their colony of Haiti several times, but eventually gave up. These buttons were supposedly destined to outfit the armies to quell the rebellion there, but the battles never took place, as France gave up the attempt. The surplus buttons entered the market, and ended up on the west coast of the United States in the mid 1820s. At that time, the Pac. northwest was still the remotest part of the earth, so any manufactured goods arriving here had value, trade purpose, etc..

    The buttons turn up any place in CA, OR, and WA that had european influence dating from the 1820s to 1830s. The ones I find in CA, appear to be nothing more than fumble fingers losses (no different than any other button or coin of the period). But in the Columbia River area of WA, they turned up enmasse on indian grave islands (the indians there had a habit of taking their dead out to dedicated islands on the river, and doing above ground burials, with ornaments, etc... on the bodies). So when the white man arrived, trade items simply replaced beads, shell, feathers, etc... for this purpose. Thus these buttons were found, simply on top of the ground, by early indian artifact collectors at the turn of the century, and up through the 1950s (damming of the Columbia erasing islands, and .... obviously .... laws, have ended this practice). So in the WA/OR area, they are sometimes considered strictly indian burial items.

    Some people think the buttons all arrived at the Columbia river, and were dispersed, by foot, all throughout the rest of the west coast that way. Or, the ship carrying them, simply continued its way down the coast, stopping in ports in CA on its way. Who knows? And yes, some get found on the east coast (very few, relative to the #'s that have surfaced on the west coast). It isn't known if they crossed the continent to get back there, or if the ship from Europe stopped on the east coast, before rounding the horn?

    Archaeologist like them, when the find them in dig sites here (around the missions, adobes, pueblos, presidios, etc...) because since the date of their arrival here is limited to just a few years, therefore they can fairly accurately date the button (and, I guess, judging from the wear on it, for circulation, etc...).

    They've sold on ebay for as much as $300, but as little as $30 (I've got one on there right now, that's slated to close in a few hours! ) It was Emory Strong's work that popularized their collecting, because, of course, there has never been a shortage of indian artifact collectors. And another reason some might collect them, is because, I guess Haiti's independence, and the loss it caused to France, had ripple effects on France/Europe and Haiti, even to this day. Time/Life's book on the "100 most influential people and events of the last millenium", lists Haiti's overthrow of France, amongst the 100 most notable events of the last 1000 yrs.

    The ball button style is very rare. I've only found 3 or 4 of that style. Congrats! The flat #29 has a lot of wear on it. I've never seen one with that much wear. Metallically perfect shape though. If you search the web, you can find pix of crisp ones, to compare to the breast on yours, to see the circulation. Very interesting.
    treblehunter, SFHunter and A2coins like this.

  12. #12
    us
    Id rather be there ^ than here

    Jul 2010
    Naples, Fl
    whites M6, Surfmaster PI
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    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    nice collection yous have there !!!!
    A2coins likes this.
    The statement below is true
    The statement above is false

  13. #13

    Nov 2007
    ,M.X.T.& Tesoro Tejon
    9,718
    2728 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA
    gee kuger, thanx for the new title

    Bassmster, Neils citation gives a good overview. That text/article has circulated on the net for quite some time now. It is drawn from the work of Emory Strong, who wrote on indian history of the Pac. NW area (OR/WA). A chapter in his books, from decades ago, dealt with contact era indian trade items. And the source and history of the buttons talked about there, has become pretty much the accepted theory.

    France tried to retake their colony of Haiti several times, but eventually gave up. These buttons were supposedly destined to outfit the armies to quell the rebellion there, but the battles never took place, as France gave up the attempt. The surplus buttons entered the market, and ended up on the west coast of the United States in the mid 1820s. At that time, the Pac. northwest was still the remotest part of the earth, so any manufactured goods arriving here had value, trade purpose, etc..

    The buttons turn up any place in CA, OR, and WA that had european influence dating from the 1820s to 1830s. The ones I find in CA, appear to be nothing more than fumble fingers losses (no different than any other button or coin of the period). But in the Columbia River area of WA, they turned up enmasse on indian grave islands (the indians there had a habit of taking their dead out to dedicated islands on the river, and doing above ground burials, with ornaments, etc... on the bodies). So when the white man arrived, trade items simply replaced beads, shell, feathers, etc... for this purpose. Thus these buttons were found, simply on top of the ground, by early indian artifact collectors at the turn of the century, and up through the 1950s (damming of the Columbia erasing islands, and .... obviously .... laws, have ended this practice). So in the WA/OR area, they are sometimes considered strictly indian burial items.

    Some people think the buttons all arrived at the Columbia river, and were dispersed, by foot, all throughout the rest of the west coast that way. Or, the ship carrying them, simply continued its way down the coast, stopping in ports in CA on its way. Who knows? And yes, some get found on the east coast (very few, relative to the #'s that have surfaced on the west coast). It isn't known if they crossed the continent to get back there, or if the ship from Europe stopped on the east coast, before rounding the horn?

    Archaeologist like them, when the find them in dig sites here (around the missions, adobes, pueblos, presidios, etc...) because since the date of their arrival here is limited to just a few years, therefore they can fairly accurately date the button (and, I guess, judging from the wear on it, for circulation, etc...).

    They've sold on ebay for as much as $300, but as little as $30 (I've got one on there right now, that's slated to close in a few hours! ) It was Emory Strong's work that popularized their collecting, because, of course, there has never been a shortage of indian artifact collectors. And another reason some might collect them, is because, I guess Haiti's independence, and the loss it caused to France, had ripple effects on France/Europe and Haiti, even to this day. Time/Life's book on the "100 most influential people and events of the last millenium", lists Haiti's overthrow of France, amongst the 100 most notable events of the last 1000 yrs.

    The ball button style is very rare. I've only found 3 or 4 of that style. Congrats! The flat #29 has a lot of wear on it. I've never seen one with that much wear. Metallically perfect shape though. If you search the web, you can find pix of crisp ones, to compare to the breast on yours, to see the circulation. Very interesting.
    And that is why Tom!!!
    M.X.T , Tesoro Tejon



    "A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than a gun in the hands of 200 million law-abiding citizens."

  14. #14
    us
    Apr 2007
    Southwestern, MN
    Minelab E-Trac Sun Ray X-1, Tesoro Vaquero, Cibola, Tejon
    671
    6 times

    Re: 2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

    Very Cool!!!
    A2coins likes this.

  15. #15
    us
    Feb 2017
    Eastern Oregon
    2
    3 times
    Uniform and livery button collector

    Phoenix buttons

    Quote Originally Posted by bassmstr View Post
    Thanks for the kind words everyone. These were in a barn from a house that was built in 1780. The house served as a inn and tavern for from 1800 until about 1875. Lots of history here and I have waited patiently to hunt it. The house is up for sale and is empty at this time. I know the real estate woman and she said no holes so the detector was out but I was free to look around the property. I know the buttons are spread out over a huge time period but it makes me wonder how these came to be on the east coast and why in such good shape. My only thoughts are a guest lost the back then or maybe from Indian trade. I guess these are treasure even though they are not dug and since I am not a huge button collector I will probably list these two. Still interested in the ID of any of the other military buttons if they are military. Thanks again....
    If you decide to list them I'll be interested as I collect military uniform buttons. These are very interesting and you are very lucky to have found them!
    Tom_in_CA and A2coins like this.

 

 
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