2 Mint Phoenix buttons plus more buttons all undug.....

[bassmstr]

Well I cannot lie these buttons were found inside a barn here in N.H. in a old mason jar with some others. One is a silver gilt phoenix ball button number 2 with all of its silver still. These are all as found as I did not try to clean anything. The other is a no. 29 phoenix button. There is a unidentified eagle button and two navy buttons. Some other misc buttons one is wood with COX on back. I love these old buttons and could not pass them up. Any info is appreciated and if you need more pics of any of the buttons for ID let me know.

 

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[bassmstr]

more buttons

 

[collector01]

Awesome find, treasure is where you find it, dose not need to be found detecting.

 

[gmanlight]

Cool buttons

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Wow! Congrats on your finds bassmstr
You couldn't ask for them to be in better shape than these are in.

 

[mainer]

Those buttons are great. Thats a great find.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Here is some info on the Phoenix buttons:


Henry Christophe became the king of Haiti in 1807. For 12 years prior to this Haitian slaves revolted against their European masters and in this timeframe defeated the English, Spanish and French. In 1802 the French anchored 225 ships in the harbor with 60,000 troops to put down the revolt. The Haitians were greatly outmanned and outgunned, but somehow managed to defeat the French, and by 1803 the French army was spent. Thomas Jefferson quickly took advantage of Napoleon and a French army in desperate need of cash, and convinced him to sell the Louisiana territory for 15 million dollars. Known as the Louisiana Purchase, this was probably the greatest land bargain in history.

Christophe reigned as king until 1820 when he became ill, and was too weak to put down a coup. He committed suicide that same year. The phoenix was Christophe's coat of arms. All of his troops were outfitted with uniform buttons and buckles with this phoenix design. The numbers at the bottom of the buttons denoted the regiment number. The buttons are numbered 1-30 with 11-13, 15-19 and 21-24 being skipped. There is no concrete evidence of why these numbers were skipped. One theory is they were skipped intentionally to fool enemies into believing the army was larger than it really was.

At this point thehistory of the Phoenix Button becomes somewhat cloudy. After Christophe's death the button maker or makers apparentlysold the undelivered buttons to a trading company bound for the West Coast ofthe United States. Very little information is available about the manufacturerof these buttons. The only buttons with backmarks are the ball variety, and allare backmarked "BUSHBY LONDON." No records have been found on thisEnglish company, so whether they were the only maker is unclear.

Nathaniel Wyeth a traderof the time was in the process of setting up a trading post on Sauvies Islandnear present day Portland, Oregon. It is generally accepted that he was the onethat the buttons were sold to in England. One of the ships believed to be carryingthe buttons made a stop in Hawaii, and one of the buttons was found in Hawaiiseveral years ago. The mysterious thing is, the regimental number on the buttonhas never been found anywhere else.

Almost all of thebuttons made their way to Wyeth's trading post. Here they were believed to betraded to the Indians for furs and salmon. The Indians in turn traded withother tribes, and eventually the buttons made their way up and down the WestCoast. The buttons have been found at period sites from Alaska to SouthernCalifornia. Of the 10 or so buttons that have been reported east of the RockyMountains, 3 have come from Virginia. Why this is, is anyone's guess. Theremaining buttons have been single finds in various states. These single lossescould easily be explained as being lost by people making their way back fromthe West Coast. However, the 3 in Virginia would suggest some kind of linkbetween the original source and Virginia.
Much of the acceptedtheory on the Phoenix Buttons can be accredited to Emory Strong, who was abutton collector and amateur archaeologist from the Portland Oregon area. Hepassed away several years ago, and not much research has been done since. Hedevised a system to describe the buttons based on the different types. The discstyle buttons came in 3 sizes: 17, 25 and 26mm, and were made of polishedbrass. They were 1 piece die stamped brass buttons with a soldered backloop. The ball variety came in two sizes; 13 and 17mm and were made of copperwith a silver gilting. Strong's system puts the buttons into 3 types, with typeI and II having 3 styles. Type I is the button found most, and all of thephotos in this article are type I except the ball variety. Type 2 is similar totype I except between the bird and regiment number am a crossed cannon andmortar. Type III is the ball variety of button. The system was designed todescribe a button with out having to write all of the details out. Example:II3s2 would be a type II, style 3 small, regiment number 2.

 

[bassmstr]

Thanks for the kind words everyone. These were in a barn from a house that was built in 1780. The house served as a inn and tavern for from 1800 until about 1875. Lots of history here and I have waited patiently to hunt it. The house is up for sale and is empty at this time. I know the real estate woman and she said no holes so the detector was out but I was free to look around the property. I know the buttons are spread out over a huge time period but it makes me wonder how these came to be on the east coast and why in such good shape. My only thoughts are a guest lost the back then or maybe from Indian trade. I guess these are treasure even though they are not dug and since I am not a huge button collector I will probably list these two. Still interested in the ID of any of the other military buttons if they are military. Thanks again....

 

[kuger]

Tom -in_Ca,on here is an expert on these and will be interested in talking to you I am sure.Those do not show up very often outside of the west coast!I will pass the link on to him

 

[Tennessee Treasure Hunter]

Those buttons are great.Awesome finds

 

[Tom_in_CA]

gee kuger, thanx for the new title

Bassmster, Neils citation gives a good overview. That text/article has circulated on the net for quite some time now. It is drawn from the work of Emory Strong, who wrote on indian history of the Pac. NW area (OR/WA). A chapter in his books, from decades ago, dealt with contact era indian trade items. And the source and history of the buttons talked about there, has become pretty much the accepted theory.

France tried to retake their colony of Haiti several times, but eventually gave up. These buttons were supposedly destined to outfit the armies to quell the rebellion there, but the battles never took place, as France gave up the attempt. The surplus buttons entered the market, and ended up on the west coast of the United States in the mid 1820s. At that time, the Pac. northwest was still the remotest part of the earth, so any manufactured goods arriving here had value, trade purpose, etc..

The buttons turn up any place in CA, OR, and WA that had european influence dating from the 1820s to 1830s. The ones I find in CA, appear to be nothing more than fumble fingers losses (no different than any other button or coin of the period). But in the Columbia River area of WA, they turned up enmasse on indian grave islands (the indians there had a habit of taking their dead out to dedicated islands on the river, and doing above ground burials, with ornaments, etc... on the bodies). So when the white man arrived, trade items simply replaced beads, shell, feathers, etc... for this purpose. Thus these buttons were found, simply on top of the ground, by early indian artifact collectors at the turn of the century, and up through the 1950s (damming of the Columbia erasing islands, and .... obviously .... laws, have ended this practice). So in the WA/OR area, they are sometimes considered strictly indian burial items.

Some people think the buttons all arrived at the Columbia river, and were dispersed, by foot, all throughout the rest of the west coast that way. Or, the ship carrying them, simply continued its way down the coast, stopping in ports in CA on its way. Who knows? And yes, some get found on the east coast (very few, relative to the #'s that have surfaced on the west coast). It isn't known if they crossed the continent to get back there, or if the ship from Europe stopped on the east coast, before rounding the horn?

Archaeologist like them, when the find them in dig sites here (around the missions, adobes, pueblos, presidios, etc...) because since the date of their arrival here is limited to just a few years, therefore they can fairly accurately date the button (and, I guess, judging from the wear on it, for circulation, etc...).

They've sold on ebay for as much as $300, but as little as $30 (I've got one on there right now, that's slated to close in a few hours! ) It was Emory Strong's work that popularized their collecting, because, of course, there has never been a shortage of indian artifact collectors. And another reason some might collect them, is because, I guess Haiti's independence, and the loss it caused to France, had ripple effects on France/Europe and Haiti, even to this day. Time/Life's book on the "100 most influential people and events of the last millenium", lists Haiti's overthrow of France, amongst the 100 most notable events of the last 1000 yrs.

The ball button style is very rare. I've only found 3 or 4 of that style. Congrats! The flat #29 has a lot of wear on it. I've never seen one with that much wear. Metallically perfect shape though. If you search the web, you can find pix of crisp ones, to compare to the breast on yours, to see the circulation. Very interesting.

 

[colorado14ers]

nice collection yous have there !!!!

 

[kuger]

gee kuger, thanx for the new title

Bassmster, Neils citation gives a good overview. That text/article has circulated on the net for quite some time now. It is drawn from the work of Emory Strong, who wrote on indian history of the Pac. NW area (OR/WA). A chapter in his books, from decades ago, dealt with contact era indian trade items. And the source and history of the buttons talked about there, has become pretty much the accepted theory.

France tried to retake their colony of Haiti several times, but eventually gave up. These buttons were supposedly destined to outfit the armies to quell the rebellion there, but the battles never took place, as France gave up the attempt. The surplus buttons entered the market, and ended up on the west coast of the United States in the mid 1820s. At that time, the Pac. northwest was still the remotest part of the earth, so any manufactured goods arriving here had value, trade purpose, etc..

The buttons turn up any place in CA, OR, and WA that had european influence dating from the 1820s to 1830s. The ones I find in CA, appear to be nothing more than fumble fingers losses (no different than any other button or coin of the period). But in the Columbia River area of WA, they turned up enmasse on indian grave islands (the indians there had a habit of taking their dead out to dedicated islands on the river, and doing above ground burials, with ornaments, etc... on the bodies). So when the white man arrived, trade items simply replaced beads, shell, feathers, etc... for this purpose. Thus these buttons were found, simply on top of the ground, by early indian artifact collectors at the turn of the century, and up through the 1950s (damming of the Columbia erasing islands, and .... obviously .... laws, have ended this practice). So in the WA/OR area, they are sometimes considered strictly indian burial items.

Some people think the buttons all arrived at the Columbia river, and were dispersed, by foot, all throughout the rest of the west coast that way. Or, the ship carrying them, simply continued its way down the coast, stopping in ports in CA on its way. Who knows? And yes, some get found on the east coast (very few, relative to the #'s that have surfaced on the west coast). It isn't known if they crossed the continent to get back there, or if the ship from Europe stopped on the east coast, before rounding the horn?

Archaeologist like them, when the find them in dig sites here (around the missions, adobes, pueblos, presidios, etc...) because since the date of their arrival here is limited to just a few years, therefore they can fairly accurately date the button (and, I guess, judging from the wear on it, for circulation, etc...).

They've sold on ebay for as much as $300, but as little as $30 (I've got one on there right now, that's slated to close in a few hours! ) It was Emory Strong's work that popularized their collecting, because, of course, there has never been a shortage of indian artifact collectors. And another reason some might collect them, is because, I guess Haiti's independence, and the loss it caused to France, had ripple effects on France/Europe and Haiti, even to this day. Time/Life's book on the "100 most influential people and events of the last millenium", lists Haiti's overthrow of France, amongst the 100 most notable events of the last 1000 yrs.

The ball button style is very rare. I've only found 3 or 4 of that style. Congrats! The flat #29 has a lot of wear on it. I've never seen one with that much wear. Metallically perfect shape though. If you search the web, you can find pix of crisp ones, to compare to the breast on yours, to see the circulation. Very interesting.

And that is why Tom!!!

 

[Swingit]

Very Cool!!!

 

[Stacey Gehrman]

Phoenix buttons

Thanks for the kind words everyone. These were in a barn from a house that was built in 1780. The house served as a inn and tavern for from 1800 until about 1875. Lots of history here and I have waited patiently to hunt it. The house is up for sale and is empty at this time. I know the real estate woman and she said no holes so the detector was out but I was free to look around the property. I know the buttons are spread out over a huge time period but it makes me wonder how these came to be on the east coast and why in such good shape. My only thoughts are a guest lost the back then or maybe from Indian trade. I guess these are treasure even though they are not dug and since I am not a huge button collector I will probably list these two. Still interested in the ID of any of the other military buttons if they are military. Thanks again....

If you decide to list them I'll be interested as I collect military uniform buttons. These are very interesting and you are very lucky to have found them!

 

[A2coins]

I agree those need to be with someone who appreciates them Great finds

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If you decide to list them I'll be interested as I collect military uniform buttons. These are very interesting and you are very lucky to have found them!

Stacey, welcome to T'net. Good to know that others like the history of these too. A trade item that arrived on the west coast in the 1810s (estimates vary). At a time here when manufactured goods (refined metals, etc...) of ANY sort were a luxury. And became trade goods to the indians. At least up your way in Oregon, they are closely associated with that early contact period + indians.

And since, as you know, there's no shortage of indian history buffs up your way, then these just took on a "bingo game" life of their own. Down here in CA they don't seem to have that "graves" or "indian" trade item connection. They are just simply found in any location that had been settled in the 1810s to 1830s era. But yes, also in rancherias that were distinctly & solely inhabited by the mission era indians.

I've got a few I can sell. I'll pop you a PM.

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Just in case nobody noticed, but this thread was from 2010

 

[Trezurehunter]

Those look like some very nice old buttons. What a great find.

 

[pepperj]

If you decide to list them I'll be interested as I collect military uniform buttons. These are very interesting and you are very lucky to have found them!

Just in case nobody noticed, but this thread was from 2010

Good eye Cal_Cobra
The OP hasn't been around on the forum for 4+ yrs even at that only posted once in that yr.