1600s Portugese Hammered Silver Cruzado

[steelheadwill]

1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 'Cruzado'

Hi all,
Dug a few ships spikes, old buttons, hardware, functional reel, and a coin.
can't find a positive ID,
this one is about 38mm and 18 grams,
Crown over shield, splayed end cross.

Thanks to Iron Patch, SilverSearcher, and everyone else who contributed
we now know it's an undated 400 Reis Cruzado from the
reign King John IV of Portugal 1640-1656.
Thanks for looking and happy hunting All!

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

I can't confirm, but know I'm close! It's 1600s, just have to try and find out if it's the correct weight, but given the 38mm size I think it's going to be a 400 Reis. (opposed to a 200) What's great if it is the real deal, is they all have some value, and there is no date! So the fact you can't read a date doesn't hurt the value beyond the condition, which is not the case for all coins with a date made more than one year. Quite a find!

Try and match the symbols around the cross to your coin, but that only determines the mint and we still need to know the weight.


Herbie, you should post it on the cobs forum as someone might have a record of them as shipwreck finds... or maybe they'd be able to tell you what the weight is. They're rare enough that it's even hard to track them down online.

 

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[CRUSADER]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

I can't confirm, but know I'm close! It's 1600s, just have to try and find out if it's the correct weight, but given the 38mm size I think it's going to be a 400 Reis. (opposed to a 200) What's great if it is the real deal, is they all have some value, and there is no date! So the fact you can't read a date doesn't hurt the value beyond the condition, which is the case for all coins with a date made more than one year. Quite a find!

Try and match the symbols around the cross to your coin.

Maybe its the photo, but it doesn't look Silver, or were these Bullion?

 

[Bratvlos]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Congrats


If you want i can post them for id on a french forum ??

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

I can't confirm, but know I'm close! It's 1600s, just have to try and find out if it's the correct weight, but given the 38mm size I think it's going to be a 400 Reis. (opposed to a 200) What's great if it is the real deal, is they all have some value, and there is no date! So the fact you can't read a date doesn't hurt the value beyond the condition, which is the case for all coins with a date made more than one year. Quite a find!

Try and match the symbols around the cross to your coin.

Maybe its the photo, but it doesn't look Silver, or were these Bullion?

I can't say for sure, but that condition is consistent for a salt water found silver coin, especially one in the range of 400 years old. Finding out the weight of the genuine ones solves it.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

http://www.ioffer.com/i/1640-us-colonial-fleur-de-lis-counterstamp-on-1517-coin-149029485

Don.....

 

[garryson]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

http://www.ioffer.com/i/1640-us-colonial-fleur-de-lis-counterstamp-on-1517-coin-149029485

Don.....

Broken link... http://ioffer.com

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

For one, the coin needing to be ID'ed is not French, and for two, that stamped douzain is $180 overpriced.... plus it looks like a late 1590s host coin (not 1517) which is the most common. Anyone who wants to spend even $100 on one... talk to me.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?



IP's Id for a 400 reis looks a good call found this one with the similar o mark next to the sheild.

SS

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

I think some are confused by the other photos in Herbie's first posting which are French, perhaps time to change the title to reflect that it is indeed a Portugese coin and not French and delete the "french examples photos". IP hit the ID rather early on, just refining it now.

As IP knows, the French Douzains did circulate in the states, so that was a possibility, my son found a 1590s one here in South Jersey years ago.

Herbie, congrats of finding what looks like a rare find and especially in NH...........

Don

 

[worldtalker]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Herbie,Just talking to Marsha about what you have pulled from those flats,Imagine what's left!!!God Bless Chris

 

[jamesbibb]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

fantastic oldie right there HUGE congrats!!!

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

I just found out that the correct weight is about 20 grams... so 2 shy is much better then 10, which is what I thought could happen. So if it was found with all old stuff, and it looks like silver, I'd say it has to be the real deal. It's a rare coin in general, but for a detecting find... probably rates as hard to find as anything posted on here and I include the chain cent. Heck I'd say it's rarer as I've seen chain cents dug... never one of these!

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Thank You All!
IP, as you state ' They're rare enough that it's even hard to track them down online.'
Indeed so.
I have been at work all day, (well, I took 2 hours to hunt at the site, got a barber silver & some more spikes etc, no more oldies yet.)
I appreciate all the research done while I was out.
Am setting up my electrolosys, will be my first and i am going to be real careful.
it appears that most of what is obscuring detail is on top rather than detail missing.
Wish me luck! should have photos to post tomorrow

Again, Thanks All!

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Once again IP,
Found a gold Reis with the design and the following info:
"The cross and crowned arms design is prevalent on Portugese coinage of the period. This page applies to gold coins. But there were many silver coins with very similar design."
Gotta keep looking for the match, 38mmX18GR,
Thanks all!

What is throwing me off from making a match is the shield on your coin... in the top right of the shield yours seems to have a design that looks like the shape of a ducks head. Do you think that's part of the coin, or just do to the condition? The other thing is the crown on your coin seems more like what I have seen on the 18th and 19th century coins and not the real early stuff. (at least the one I just seen) Yes they used that cross for a long time and on many coins.

IP, that is the side that will benefit most from electrol, as you can see, there is a black layer on top of the shield, hopefully tomorrow we'll see more details

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Once again IP,
Found a gold Reis with the design and the following info:
"The cross and crowned arms design is prevalent on Portugese coinage of the period. This page applies to gold coins. But there were many silver coins with very similar design."
Gotta keep looking for the match, 38mmX18GR,
Thanks all!

What is throwing me off from making a match is the shield on your coin... in the top right of the shield yours seems to have a design that looks like the shape of a ducks head. Do you think that's part of the coin, or just do to the condition? The other thing is the crown on your coin seems more like what I have seen on the 18th and 19th century coins and not the real early stuff. (at least the one I just seen) Yes they used that cross for a long time and on many coins.

IP, that is the side that will benefit most from electrol, as you can see, there is a black layer on top of the shield, hopefully tomorrow we'll see more details

Definitely take your time. Good luck!

PS: It was only a matter of flipping through my book, just didn't have time earlier. So sometimes books still beat Google!

 

[artyfacts]

Re: 16th/17th C Portugese Hammered Silver

Wow Herbie, great oldie for sure...

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Hi Herbie , Fascinating .. I like to call em' , Early Explorer finds ! like that hammered Bill D. in Va just found. There have been at least two or more early 18 th century , milled Portugese gold coin finds on the Cape May beach this past Fall . Dredging has spit them out onto the beach , a few were still in the pipe . The Earliest explorer coin that would be relative to this area of Jersey would be Dutch , Henry Hudson 's Half Moon , in 1610 . Been on recent hunts of old whaling areas ... No luck . I like to find anything that possibly has a connection to the first explorations and I hope your coin has that early settlement history connection 8) dawg

Thanks Dawg! this was found at the edge of a dredged area, and being found near surface means it was probably spit out of the channel.
Thanks for the info & great digs to you!

 

[JW15]

Re: 16th/17th C Portugese Hammered Silver

Awesome coin find Herbie!!! Congrats all the way!

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

Once again IP,
Found a gold Reis with the design and the following info:
"The cross and crowned arms design is prevalent on Portugese coinage of the period. This page applies to gold coins. But there were many silver coins with very similar design."
Gotta keep looking for the match, 38mmX18GR,
Thanks all!

What is throwing me off from making a match is the shield on your coin... in the top right of the shield yours seems to have a design that looks like the shape of a ducks head. Do you think that's part of the coin, or just do to the condition? The other thing is the crown on your coin seems more like what I have seen on the 18th and 19th century coins and not the real early stuff. (at least the one I just seen) Yes they used that cross for a long time and on many coins.

IP, that is the side that will benefit most from electrol, as you can see, there is a black layer on top of the shield, hopefully tomorrow we'll see more details

Definitely take your time. Good luck!

PS: It was only a matter of flipping through my book, just didn't have time earlier. So sometimes books still beat Google!

Books are great! just ordered Huge 'World Gold Coins 1601-Present'
$25 from Hamilton books, sold for a couple hundred I believe.
I got a feeling I may need this reference someday
they also got Grafs 'Catalog of CW weapons' for $9
Always good to have the info on your shelves

 

[SouthJerseyJim]

Re: Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Herby great find! Is there a solid date range?