Found a beautifully engraved Rev War crossbelt on Thurs that is absolutely STUNNING!!

[Devonrex]

UPDATE! Beautifully engraved Rev War crossbelt that is STUNNING! 2 more plates added

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Revisited the Revolutionary War site where I found many French Regimental buttons last year and my super rare silver 76th Officers Bristish regimental button which won me best relic of 2012 on the CS Sentinel website. I had previously found 2 pits at this site and have now located a third. I have only just begun to dig this one out. It too appears to be roughly 5 ft by 5 ft. The best thing to come our of it Thurs morning was this brass plate featuring a fox with his paw raised as if saluting. This is etched by hand making this truly a work of art. It has the most beautiful emerald green patina that all relic hunters love to see! Everything I have found at this site has dated to 1781. Its dimensions are 2 inches by 2 inches with 5 prongs on the back suggesting it was attached to leather. I found another somewhat similar piece back about 10 yrs ago featuring a fox also but it was nowhere near the fine detail as this one. I feel, and have been told by one other well known relic hunter, that this may be a British Cross belt plate although I have not had direct confirimation from Don Troini or George Juno. There was a British naval officer in the Revolutionary War who served at Yorktown known as The Fox. I am researching this connection and looking for anyone else who may have dug a similar peice or may have suggestions as to what this is. Hopefully this pit will render some more French Regimental buttons or another coveted British officers button. Devonrex

 

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[JmCraz8]

Amazing!!!

 

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[Kev Woodward]

I am very glad to be able to help in the identification of such important local finds that you have unearthed, I find the condition to be amazing. Both of these items could be either horse harness mounts or carriage mounts. I have identified the first item as belonging to the Carter family from Virginia JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The dog is called a Talbot, a classic hunting dog of its time and the heraldic way of describing its posture is sejant. It is holding a shield under its dexter (right) paw and this shield (or escutcheon) has a cart wheel or Catherine wheel depicted on it. The rope like item the dog is sat on is called the torse and it represents the twisted ribbons used to cover the joint between the knights armoured helmet and the crest sat on top of it and is sometimes called a wreath. Therefore the crests heraldic description is as given in the link.

The second one is proving to be a little more difficult to narrow down as many families used the armoured arm and sword as their crest, all with subtle differences to each other, such as the angle of the weapon etc. Your one has a left arm holding the weapon (heraldically the left side is always called sinister) when most are a right arm (dexter). Also as the weapon is broken it is unclear if it is a sword or dagger, but the latter seems more likely. I will continue to see if I can narrow it down for you and if I do I'll let you know.

 

[Devonrex]

I am very glad to be able to help in the identification of such important local finds that you have unearthed, I find the condition to be amazing. Both of these items could be either horse harness mounts or carriage mounts. I have identified the first item as belonging to the Carter family from Virginia JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The dog is called a Talbot, a classic hunting dog of its time and the heraldic way of describing its posture is sejant. It is holding a shield under its dexter (right) paw and this shield (or escutcheon) has a cart wheel or Catherine wheel depicted on it. The rope like item the dog is sat on is called the torse and it represents the twisted ribbons used to cover the joint between the knights armoured helmet and the crest sat on top of it and is sometimes called a wreath. Therefore the crests heraldic description is as given in the link.

The second one is proving to be a little more difficult to narrow down as many families used the armoured arm and sword as their crest, all with subtle differences to each other, such as the angle of the weapon etc. Your one has a left arm holding the weapon (heraldically the left side is always called sinister) when most are a right arm (dexter). Also as the weapon is broken it is unclear if it is a sword or dagger, but the latter seems more likely. I will continue to see if I can narrow it down for you and if I do I'll let you know.

The Carter Family is well known to Williamsburg and is just up the road from me. Unbelievable!!! As for the arm and sword the sword is not broken but cast that way. It was found in the same general area as the other plate. Look up the last name Nelson of Virginia and see if thats a match. Thanks for all your help on identifying these two wonderful pieces of history! Devonrex

 

[Kev Woodward]

This is not an easy one as stated before as these are just some of the names with similar crests and are just the ones from the UK! Antique Silver : MyFamilySilver.com The search goes on.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

i had to look again at this piece.it's freakin amazing! looks awesome up top! way to go john!

 

[dogteam]

What a beautiful object!
I think you were right initially, in that it could be a belt plate for a bayonet hanger belt, British...but tracking down the particular "owner" of that device might be problematic. Every regimental colonel had considerable leeway in outfitting his troops, as long as they conformed to the "general specifications" laid out by the Crown. I know that Cornwallis (under whom my many-times great grandfather, Lieut. Colonel James Webster, served) took great pride in the appearance of his troops, and paid for many "enhancements" to the uniform out of his own pocket. And the demi-wolf salient is a very common heraldic device throughout the British Isles. I wish you luck in finding other examples, though, please let us know if you have any luck!

 

[docbars]

That is an awesome find,congrats

 

[CRUSADER]

What a beautiful object!
I think you were right initially, in that it could be a belt plate for a bayonet hanger belt, British...but tracking down the particular "owner" of that device might be problematic. Every regimental colonel had considerable leeway in outfitting his troops, as long as they conformed to the "general specifications" laid out by the Crown. I know that Cornwallis (under whom my many-times great grandfather, Lieut. Colonel James Webster, served) took great pride in the appearance of his troops, and paid for many "enhancements" to the uniform out of his own pocket. And the demi-wolf salient is a very common heraldic device throughout the British Isles. I wish you luck in finding other examples, though, please let us know if you have any luck!

Please gives us the references of this being a belt plate? Kev & I are 99% sure that its horse related, many similar UK finds.

 

[Iron Patch]

Please gives us the references of this being a belt plate? Kev & I are 99% sure that its horse related, may similar UK finds.

If it was a military cross belt plate you can be 100% sure there would be an update saying as much.

 

[dogteam]

Please gives us the references of this being a belt plate? Kev & I are 99% sure that its horse related, many similar UK finds.

My apologies, it was not my intention to imply that I "knew" what it was, I was only going by my somewhat superficial knowledge of redcoat uniforms. Speculation only, sirs, so I bow to your hands-on knowledge. A beautiful piece, whatever it's original use.
So it would be a decoration fastened to a saddle or bridle, or....?

 

[Walk the dog]

Very nice!

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Sorry I missed this original post of yours John!
Glad to see you're still finding great stuff with the CS Plate you just found!

Dave

 

[I-DIG-IT]

Nice digs.