1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

[steelheadwill]

1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

Hi all,
haven't posted anything in a while so I figured I'd show this dirty piece of silver.
Hunted a new site and spent an hour in the pasty mud with not much to show,
on the steep hillside along the water I noticed lots of scrap metal and trash,
made my way up the hill gathering all the copper and brass I could eyeball.
Turned on the Safari, stock coil was all I had with me,
amazingly I picked a signal from the trash, dug an 1878 IH, check the hole,
another 1878...
check the hole, another signal, different numbers.
Big root in the way, pulled some dirt from underneath, small silver coin
Take a close look, hmm 1652, that's familiar. wrap in leaf and secure it.
scan again, another signal. looks to be a Charles II Groat, now that's a rare find over here.

Very Strange, coin spill over older coin spill ? Anyway this was a first for me...

No pix of The IHs or the groat cause they got put somewhere safe in my truck
They'll turn up sometime.

This morning I identified my Oak threepence as a 'Noe-28', an 'R-6, 13-30 examples known' and she appears to be almost uncirculated and well struck (for Ma Silver) under that dirt.
Diagnostics on this one are easy, both legends start at lower left, 5 in date squashed.

Shown as an example is the Wurzbach plate coin of this variety, in the description he notes:

"Crosby could not find a specimen good enough to furnish a proper description. Excessively rare"

I take this to mean that he obtained a better specimen than Crosby, and was right proud of the fact.

Breen notes "All specimens I have examined are dogs, due to weak striking and weakly cut dies".

These quotes give you some idea of the apparent jealousy and competitiveness of collectors and 'experts' on Massachusetts silver.


given the condition of the best example I could find, I think mine is a looker.
Apparently these coins don't appear much in higher grades.

And a photo of a stern Colonial Governor from the period.


Trees seem to be sprouting all over this year.
Thanks for looking & HH Everyone

 

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[steelheadwill]

Surely you jest ,

stab me in the eye with a rusty spike to make that visual go away

Jest indeed, the poor photos are as it will rest probably till im gone, no cleaning whatsoever.
my R6 Rosa is the same. anything less than an R5 will get my degreaser treatment, as I like my coins to be somewhat pretty,
and am not concerned too much about value cause I won't be selling.
The historical significance of these deserve to be left 'as is' and if they are ugly, so be it.
the pretty pic required for a banner spot is not a big concern for me.
I got a few finds never posted that likely would be up top...


Regarding things I'd sell, I have a 69 Chevy Longhorn PU project , 600 made, perfect body, frame off resto with all the goodies.
Frame is a 1969 C30 LongHorn frame, converted to 4wd with DIY4X ( DIY4X: Catering to those who enjoy doing it themselves. ) BYFG52 brackets, 52" long 3/4t rear springs in the front and a 4" shackle flip in the rear, Donovan custom springs in the rear. All stainless brake and fuel plumbing. 32 Gallon Suburban gas tank and sending unit.

Specs: Motor AKA Diesel Eater: Cadillac 500 Big Block. Factory 502ft lbs of tq.
- I added a little bit to it.

* Shaft mounted Roller Rockers - Maximum Torque Specialties - Index
* Edelbrock High rise intake
* Edelbrock 800 CFM Carb
* Full billet distributor
* Maximum Torque Specialties MTS15 Cam
* Hand ported heads, stainless valves (120CC chambers)
* 9:1 compression
* new oil and fuel pumps
* new timing chain



Specs: Front Axle

* D60 - 4.10 Gears, new king pins, wheel bearings, u-joints, calipers, rotors and pads -2wd steering box, with dropped pitman arm and crossover steering.



Specs: Transmission

* Cadillac TH400 with all new wear-ables and seals



Specs Doubler

* NP203 with short adapter
* Northwest Fab Doubler kit with Ford 31 spline output - http://northwestfab.com/NP203NP205_c_77.html * Chevy NP205 (round pattern) with all 31/32 spline Ford internals and NWF billet aluminum goodies



Specs: Rear Axle

* 1996 C+C 14B from a C3500
* Blackbird's Rear disk brake conversion, will clear dual wheels, if you want to switch it up. GM Rear Disc Brakes 10, 12, 14 bolt-Dana 60,70 and more
* 4.10 gears

Sheet metal is rust free. I took a CA cab and cut off the outer rockers, inner kick panels and "doglegs" and added new sheet metal. Firewall has been shaved, as is the gas tank filler. A fuel filler was installed in the rear left bedside. Cowl Hood by Tri-Pro. Doors are solid. Long Horn bed is in good shape with the seam welded to make a clean bedside, with all new under supports by Mar-K and a 1/8" plate floor with 3/16" reinforcement strips on the top to make it look factory (Long Horns were all wood floors, due to the extra 6"). I also have drive shafts to lengthen or shorten as required.
Tires are 35" Pitbull Growlers on 16x10" Pro-Comp aluminum rims. Front bumper is homemade and has been called the "Battleship of all bumpers". Also has hydro boost brakes, with a new MC. HID lights and ballast.

This is mostly together. I have "Buddy Buckets" for the seats, a tilt column and a Painless wiring harness for it.
just needs the final 15% finish. contact me if anyone's interested in this one of a kind 4X4 monster.

 

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[steelheadwill]

Very nice find indeed! Can you post the titles of the books that your quotes are from in your original post? Would like to see that James II too--I found a James II crown (gun money) a number of years back, but that was found in England and I guess after he was off the English throne (1698 if my memory is correct--which it may not be ) It's also in a safe place somewhere in my house--I will have to try and find it again one of these day, LOL.

regarding the british coins, I don't recall seeing any colonial era brit silver found in US.
Still haven't found my IHs or the groat, soon.
A lot of the info including feversham is fron the ND mass silver link I posted, My friend, Dr Phillip Mossman of NDU compiled most of this info, home page is where you'll find all coinage from first colonization to the beginnings of the US mint, (I recently got a 1796 Half Cent,
somewhere in the vicinity of 1600 minted, LUVVIT!)
Much info Here, scroll to bottom for links to descriptions and pix of different types:


Massachusetts Bay Silver General Introduction

the rest of the info and pix are from my books, specific questions are welcome as I have diagnostics and plate pics of the finest examples, pm me if you need specific info, thanks & HH

 

[CRUSADER]

Indeed, wasn't exporting silver to the colonies a capitol offense?
this was a pretty smooth coin, bust right and a 'II' on the side.
I'll be looking for it today.

Ok, its a halfgroat. Pictures please?

 

[dejapooh]

Breen notes "All specimens I have examined are dogs, due to weak striking and weakly cut dies".

These quotes give you some idea of the apparent jealousy and competitiveness of collectors and 'experts' on Massachusetts silver.

I knew Walter quite well, back in the day. Of all of the things you could call Walter, Jealous and competitive would not be two that I would use. I usually found him to be quite open and forthcoming with his information. Since he did not collect, buy, or sell coins, he was uniquely positioned to NOT profit by FINDING rarities, but by simply finding those who found them and reporting what he had found.

 

[steelheadwill]

Ok, its a halfgroat. Pictures please?

I know waiting is diffficult, I'm packing with my GF and late for the airport,
Oncew she's gone I'll find the coin and get the pix, have you seen a colonial era brit silver recovered in America?

 

[The Rebel]

WOW! Fantastic Find!

 

[CRUSADER]

I know waiting is diffficult, I'm packing with my GF and late for the airport,
Oncew she's gone I'll find the coin and get the pix, have you seen a colonial era brit silver recovered in America?

By colonial, I guess you mean 17th C & later, if so, yes a few have been posted, specially the later 17th C William III.

 

[steelheadwill]

I knew Walter quite well, back in the day. Of all of the things you could call Walter, Jealous and competitive would not be two that I would use. I usually found him to be quite open and forthcoming with his information. Since he did not collect, buy, or sell coins, he was uniquely positioned to NOT profit by FINDING rarities, but by simply finding those who found them and reporting what he had found.

I was incorrect in including his quote, though it seems to contradict the apparent quality strike on my example .
He was a great contributor to Numismatic knowledge.
i purchased his book, sold it two days later after learning about his personal life and history.
did not like the idea of having his work in my home, I am not prejudicial, but his crimes were of the nature I will not tolerate.
This was truly a sad end to his life and all his contributions

Crimes

Breen was arrested on child molestation charges in 1990, and accepted a plea bargain, which resulted in three years' probation.[SUP][7][/SUP]
In 1991 he was charged with eight felony counts of child molestation involving a 13-year-old boy.[SUP][7][/SUP] Though diagnosed with liver cancer in 1992, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. He died in prison in Chino, California on April 27, 1993.[SUP][8][/SUP]

 

[dejapooh]

Agreed, single primary cause of my ending our friendship. In many ways he was too smart for his own good. He was able to argue himself into justifying almost any action short of violence. He was by far the smartest person I ever met, yet also one of the most naive and stupid when it came to his dealing with self control. That applies to his substance abuse (which he never considered abuse), as well as his other, now obvious, shortcomings.

I was incorrect in including his quote, though it seems to contradict the apparent quality strike on my example .
He was a great contributor to Numismatic knowledge.
i purchased his book, sold it two days later after learning about his personal life and history.
did not like the idea of having his work in my home, I am not prejudicial, but his crimes were of the nature I will not tolerate.
This was truly a sad end to his life and all his contributions

Crimes

Breen was arrested on child molestation charges in 1990, and accepted a plea bargain, which resulted in three years' probation.[SUP][7][/SUP]
In 1991 he was charged with eight felony counts of child molestation involving a 13-year-old boy.[SUP][7][/SUP] Though diagnosed with liver cancer in 1992, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. He died in prison in Chino, California on April 27, 1993.[SUP][8][/SUP]

 

[stewielouie]

Thats a fantastic coin!! Congrats!!

 

[VERMONTIS]

1652!!!! There where some serious scalping Indians running around in the woods at that time

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

I'm scratching my head wondering why this coin is not yet up on the BANNER? What's going on?

 

[Iron Patch]

I'm scratching my head wondering why this coin is not yet up on the BANNER? What's going on?

I think what the banner people might not realize is that when a find is banner worthy in such an obvious way many people might not feel they have to vote. And then to wait for the votes, or people to argue to get it up there is just a waste of time an unnecessary drama. To be honest I lost my interest with the banner a very long time ago but for some reason I can't leave it alone 100%.... maybe that reason is an American coin with a 1652 date!

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

I know waiting is diffficult, I'm packing with my GF and late for the airport,
Oncew she's gone I'll find the coin and get the pix, have you seen a colonial era brit silver recovered in America?

Herbie - I'm not sure what your definition of "colonial era brit silver" is. I've dug close to 20 hammered silver coins from the UK dating back to the 1560s right here in southeast Virginia. The only non-hammered British I can remember digging is a 1697 shilling. I've also recovered colonial silver coins here from other European countries plus one from India (1700s rupee). I guess I wasn't sure if you were excluding hammered coins in your statement. Maybe you can clarify. Thanks.

 

[Mr Tuff]

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks All! Vermontis, there were many raids on outlying areas, when I say outlying, I just mean a few miles outside the major cities and ports, Here's one example, 1689, about 10 years after Hull stopped minting Mass Silvers,
Dover is a stones throw from the relative safety of Portsmouth.
Seacoast NH History - Colonial Era - Cochecho Massacre

 

[steelheadwill]

I think what the banner people might not realize is that when a find is banner worthy in such an obvious way many people might not feel they have to vote. And then to wait for the votes, or people to argue to get it up there is just a waste of time an unnecessary drama. To be honest I lost my interest with the banner a very long time ago but for some reason I can't leave it alone 100%.... maybe that reason is an American coin with a 1652 date!

Thanks IP
I agree with your Banner opinion, and after your first, it's "unnecessary drama"...
since I didn't polish it up yet it doesn't quite fit the requirements.
Any common gold coin goes up because that's what draws the advertisers eye and pays the bills.
This coin made it into my 'Outstandings' book, and will probably stay as it is until my heirs
sell it for scrap value, I'm not sure about NGCs conservation service performance.
I have several coins that might benefit from some kind of treatment, but I don't want to see them stripped, I'm capable of that on my own.
HH!

 

[steelheadwill]

Herbie - I'm not sure what your definition of "colonial era brit silver" is. I've dug close to 20 hammered silver coins from the UK dating back to the 1560s right here in southeast Virginia. The only non-hammered British I can remember digging is a 1697 shilling. I've also recovered colonial silver coins here from other European countries plus one from India (1700s rupee). I guess I wasn't sure if you were excluding hammered coins in your statement. Maybe you can clarify. Thanks.

Thanks Bill, I meant any pre 1770 era silver, I thought it was an offence to export silver to the colonies.
I now have found several posts with this type found on US soil.
20 Hammereds going back to the 16th C
You have done well my friend, as it stands, I still don't have my first.
Other countries have given me older Silver, Portugal, and Colonial Peru and Mexico.
Thanks for your input, and HH

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Thanks Bill, I meant any pre 1770 era silver, I thought it was an offence to export silver to the colonies.
I now have found several posts with this type found on US soil.
20 Hammereds going back to the 16th C
You have done well my friend, as it stands, I still don't have my first.
Other countries have given me older Silver, Portugal, and Colonial Peru and Mexico.
Thanks for your input, and HH

Herbie - most of my hammered coinage was found at a site owned by a wealthy gentleman who was a supporter of Charles I during their Civil War in the mid-1600s, and who was forced to flee Great Britian for fear of his life. I have documentation that says he brought tremendous wealth with him in the form of gold and silver coins, and much of that booty was found by a slave hidden in the walls of his vacated and run down home about 40-50 years after he died. Actually, I have a copy of an article from the Virginia Gazette from the 1730s that says the slave found several BUSHELS of gold and silver coins in the house. Obviously he must have died without revealing the whereabouts of this hoard. So I doubt he was too concerned about any laws prohibiting export of silver (or gold) to the colonies even if those laws were on the books that early. My other hammereds were found at very early sites that I'm sure were also brought with the owners when they made the long voyage to Virginia in the early 1600s, and then randomly lost. At some point I need to round up all my colonial silver (up to 149 coins now) and get a big group shot. The last time I did that was 3-4 years ago when I reached the 100 mark. But I have them scattered all over the place in various displays and it will be difficult to figure out how to put them back in their proper place after the pic, especially the 60-70 cut pieces since many are very similar. But I'm still missing that coveted Mass silver although I do have a small cut piece from a pine tree shilling. Congrats again on your awesome find and growing collection ..... Bill

 

[pepperj]

Congrats on the great find, it has been a very interesting thread that opens ones eyes through the posting of knowledgeable minds.