1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

[steelheadwill]

1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

Hi all,
haven't posted anything in a while so I figured I'd show this dirty piece of silver.
Hunted a new site and spent an hour in the pasty mud with not much to show,
on the steep hillside along the water I noticed lots of scrap metal and trash,
made my way up the hill gathering all the copper and brass I could eyeball.
Turned on the Safari, stock coil was all I had with me,
amazingly I picked a signal from the trash, dug an 1878 IH, check the hole,
another 1878...
check the hole, another signal, different numbers.
Big root in the way, pulled some dirt from underneath, small silver coin
Take a close look, hmm 1652, that's familiar. wrap in leaf and secure it.
scan again, another signal. looks to be a Charles II Groat, now that's a rare find over here.

Very Strange, coin spill over older coin spill ? Anyway this was a first for me...

No pix of The IHs or the groat cause they got put somewhere safe in my truck
They'll turn up sometime.

This morning I identified my Oak threepence as a 'Noe-28', an 'R-6, 13-30 examples known' and she appears to be almost uncirculated and well struck (for Ma Silver) under that dirt.
Diagnostics on this one are easy, both legends start at lower left, 5 in date squashed.

Shown as an example is the Wurzbach plate coin of this variety, in the description he notes:

"Crosby could not find a specimen good enough to furnish a proper description. Excessively rare"

I take this to mean that he obtained a better specimen than Crosby, and was right proud of the fact.

Breen notes "All specimens I have examined are dogs, due to weak striking and weakly cut dies".

These quotes give you some idea of the apparent jealousy and competitiveness of collectors and 'experts' on Massachusetts silver.


given the condition of the best example I could find, I think mine is a looker.
Apparently these coins don't appear much in higher grades.

And a photo of a stern Colonial Governor from the period.


Trees seem to be sprouting all over this year.
Thanks for looking & HH Everyone

 

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[Iron Patch]

Thanks IP
I agree with your Banner opinion, and after your first, it's "unnecessary drama"...
since I didn't polish it up yet it doesn't quite fit the requirements.
Any common gold coin goes up because that's what draws the advertisers eye and pays the bills.
This coin made it into my 'Outstandings' book, and will probably stay as it is until my heirs
sell it for scrap value, I'm not sure about NGCs conservation service performance.
I have several coins that might benefit from some kind of treatment, but I don't want to see them stripped, I'm capable of that on my own.
HH!

I wouldn't trust anyone with that. If at some point you plan to attempt to clean it, before you start drop a single drop of fresh lemon juice in an area without too much buildup, leave it for 20 minutes, and see if it penetrates the corrosion at all. From the pictures it does look like it would work, but because it was a salt water find? ...that changes things, at least from the coins I'm used to cleaning.

 

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[hogge]

Herbie, For the life of me I cannot figure out why it's not up top. Well deserving, valuable, and Rare. With the detail I see, even uncleaned it's a $2-$3,000 coin. Subject to the purchaser, but I think it's a fair assumption you may get that easily. Even though Jason has his shilling there, I think a Three Pence should be along side. Seeing as how VERY FEW are still being found. Just a shame! (or is that a "Sham") Would love to see it cleaned up. Even if it took great care and weeks to do. That would make a GREAT addition to my signature totals!

 

[Gold007]

WOW! What a great find! That is a very rare piece there.

 

[steelheadwill]

Herbie - most of my hammered coinage was found at a site owned by a wealthy gentleman who was a supporter of Charles I during their Civil War in the mid-1600s, and who was forced to flee Great Britian for fear of his life. I have documentation that says he brought tremendous wealth with him in the form of gold and silver coins, and much of that booty was found by a slave hidden in the walls of his vacated and run down home about 40-50 years after he died. Actually, I have a copy of an article from the Virginia Gazette from the 1730s that says the slave found several BUSHELS of gold and silver coins in the house. Obviously he must have died without revealing the whereabouts of this hoard. So I doubt he was too concerned about any laws prohibiting export of silver (or gold) to the colonies even if those laws were on the books that early. My other hammereds were found at very early sites that I'm sure were also brought with the owners when they made the long voyage to Virginia in the early 1600s, and then randomly lost. At some point I need to round up all my colonial silver (up to 149 coins now) and get a big group shot. The last time I did that was 3-4 years ago when I reached the 100 mark. But I have them scattered all over the place in various displays and it will be difficult to figure out how to put them back in their proper place after the pic, especially the 60-70 cut pieces since many are very similar. But I'm still missing that coveted Mass silver although I do have a small cut piece from a pine tree shilling. Congrats again on your awesome find and growing collection ..... Bill

Thanks Bill, sure look forward to seeing those coins! I'll be going back thru your posts to see them individually

Your reply confirms my opinions on site selection, you can search any site that had activity and find relics,
but if you are looking for coinage, you have to find where the money was. Well off people or places of commerce.
I've seen it time and again, most colonials were subsistence or maybe a little better off, so what coins they had
were coveted.
Always look forward to your informative input, Best wishes,

 

[steelheadwill]

I wouldn't trust anyone with that. If at some point you plan to attempt to clean it, before you start drop a single drop of fresh lemon juice in an area without too much buildup, leave it for 20 minutes, and see if it penetrates the corrosion at all. From the pictures it does look like it would work, but because it was a salt water find? ...that changes things, at least from the coins I'm used to cleaning.

IP, this one was not found in the water, about 75 feet above the tideline. still, the effects of salt show on finds up to a couple miles inland. I may try your method at some point, I place trust in your judgement.
Thanks !

 

[steelheadwill]

Ok, its a halfgroat. Pictures please?

Don't know Cru, it may have made it into the house and been left on the commode with a few dozen other coins,
wouldn't be the first time one of my cats 'stole' a coin while batting things around.

 

[steelheadwill]

Congrats on the great find, it has been a very interesting thread that opens ones eyes through the posting of knowledgeable minds.

Thanks pepperj, high praise indeed though I can be longwinded

 

[steelheadwill]

Herbie, For the life of me I cannot figure out why it's not up top. Well deserving, valuable, and Rare. With the detail I see, even uncleaned it's a $2-$3,000 coin. Subject to the purchaser, but I think it's a fair assumption you may get that easily. Even though Jason has his shilling there, I think a Three Pence should be along side. Seeing as how VERY FEW are still being found. Just a shame! (or is that a "Sham") Would love to see it cleaned up. Even if it took great care and weeks to do. That would make a GREAT addition to my signature totals!

Thanks Hogge,
Why have a toasty three pence when there's Oxbows outstanding Shilling
I appreciate your continued support,. it's definitely got a spot in my banner folder !!

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Thanks Bill, sure look forward to seeing those coins! I'll be going back thru your posts to see them individually

Your reply confirms my opinions on site selection, you can search any site that had activity and find relics,
but if you are looking for coinage, you have to find where the money was. Well off people or places of commerce.
I've seen it time and again, most colonials were subsistence or maybe a little better off, so what coins they had
were coveted.
Always look forward to your informative input, Best wishes,

Herbie - since you were interested in seeing the coins here's a couple of older pics of some of my colonial silver, and I hope to take a current group shot sometime soon. The first pic was taken 3 years ago right after I dug my 100th coin. Since then I found 10 in 2010-11, 15 more in 2011-12, and a whopping 24 in 2012-13 for a total of 149. I'm also including a pic of the hammered coins I found from that one site. These do not include 8 others found by 3 of my buddies that were invited to hunt there. My favorites are the 1607 James I sixpence (the year of the Jamestown landing), and that 1619 dutch coin in the lower right. That was the year the first slaves were brought to Virginia, and they came over on Dutch ships. I thought that was a pretty cool connection. I did a full article on the hammered silver coin finds that appeared in American Digger magazine about 4 years ago, and if you're interested in more details about these shoot me your email address and I'll forward a pdf copy to you. And thanks for all your kind words. Take care ..... Bill

 

[steelheadwill]

Bill, that is a truly amazing collection.
I can truly appreciate the research and effort that went into recovering those.
Would like to see your article, Thanks for all your input on my thread HH, Herbie.

 

[nroth1618]

That pine shilling is beautiful, get it graded. That is an $1,000 to $25,000 coin. Amazing find!

 

[Iron Patch]

IP, this one was not found in the water, about 75 feet above the tideline. still, the effects of salt show on finds up to a couple miles inland. I may try your method at some point, I place trust in your judgement.
Thanks !

That's probably very good news for cleaning, and now it makes sense because it didn't really look like the typical salt water find to me. What it does look like is my oldest coin which is about the same age and found under the same circumstances, and cleaned up great. I don't have before pics, and it was many years ago, but I can say when I sent the cleaned pics to the friends I was out with that day their jaws hit the floor. (it had lots of corrosion)

PS: Even peroxide and brushing should work on that to some degree (maybe very well), and might actually be a better first step. I'd probably do that first if I was going to clean it, just because I'd rather take something like that slow.

The other side is probably even cleaner of corrosion, I just don't have a pic saved.

 

[steelheadwill]

That's probably very good news for cleaning, and now it makes sense because it didn't really look like the typical salt water find to me. What it does look like is my oldest coin which is about the same age and found under the same circumstances, and cleaned up great. I don't have before pics, and it was many years ago, but I can say when I sent the cleaned pics to the friends I was out with that day their jaws hit the floor. (it had lots of corrosion)

PS: Even peroxide and brushing should work on that to some degree (maybe very well), and might actually be a better first step. I'd probably do that first if I was going to clean it, just because I'd rather take something like that slow.

The other side is probably even cleaner of corrosion, I just don't have a pic saved.

Nice Piece, fairly smooth surfaces, See if I can ID, Louis XIII 1/12 Ecu?
that reversed Fluer above the shield is different
What the heck, I'm never gonna sell the thruppence, and whoever gets it after I'm gone won't know what it is,
so slow and easy I'll do some work on it.
It will be a while, but good or bad I'll let you know the results.
Always appreciate your replies

 

[Iron Patch]

Nice Piece, fairly smooth surfaces, See if I can ID, Louis XIII 1/12 Ecu?
that reversed Fluer above the shield is different
What the heck, I'm never gonna sell the thruppence, and whoever gets it after I'm gone won't know what it is,
so slow and easy I'll do some work on it.
It will be a while, but good or bad I'll let you know the results.
Always appreciate your replies

16th century Douzain restruck & stamped in the 1690s for the French Colonies.


I think I could get your coin close to that. The detail is certainly there. Maybe a little more pitting, but still would be a whole lot better than how it is now.

 

[steelheadwill]

That pine shilling is beautiful, get it graded. That is an $1,000 to $25,000 coin. Amazing find!

Thanks nroth1618, Thanks for your reply.
It's an oak three pence, and a pretty rare variety, my view on slabbing is that you'll never get to hold that coin unless you break it out, so if you're not selling what's the point.
Authentication? I know it's real.
Even if it were to be sold, knowledgable collectors 'Buy the coin, not the slab', at least that's the advice I hear.
Best wishes & HH

 

[steelheadwill]

16th century Douzain restruck & stamped in the 1690s for the French Colonies.


I think I could get your coin close to that. The detail is certainly there. Maybe a little more pitting, but still would be a whole lot better than how it is now.

Thanks IP, That restrike is very interesting, I'm gonna snatch your pic for my files
As said, I will do some work on this and post the results. the good, bad or ugly. (well it's ugly now)
Be a while, week or two. my Dominican helper calls me 'busyman'

 

[Ifoundit69]

Awesome score !

 

[nroth1618]

That is the point of getting it slabbed. Each time you handle the coin it is devalued. Slabbing the coin will increase the value and prevent devaluation.

 

[Iron Patch]

That is the point of getting it slabbed. Each time you handle the coin it is devalued. Slabbing the coin will increase the value and prevent devaluation.

You do know the clean looking coin at the start of the post is only for reference?

 

[steelheadwill]

That is the point of getting it slabbed. Each time you handle the coin it is devalued. Slabbing the coin will increase the value and prevent devaluation.

You should understand from my reply that the coin will never be sold by me,
and I'm not especially concerned about its value. The rarity and history, yes.
It's current surface encrustation protect it from any handling 'damage'.
Even if it were smooth, I would handle it.
Its rarity and history will not be degraded by my hands.