1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

[steelheadwill]

1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

Hi all,
haven't posted anything in a while so I figured I'd show this dirty piece of silver.
Hunted a new site and spent an hour in the pasty mud with not much to show,
on the steep hillside along the water I noticed lots of scrap metal and trash,
made my way up the hill gathering all the copper and brass I could eyeball.
Turned on the Safari, stock coil was all I had with me,
amazingly I picked a signal from the trash, dug an 1878 IH, check the hole,
another 1878...
check the hole, another signal, different numbers.
Big root in the way, pulled some dirt from underneath, small silver coin
Take a close look, hmm 1652, that's familiar. wrap in leaf and secure it.
scan again, another signal. looks to be a Charles II Groat, now that's a rare find over here.

Very Strange, coin spill over older coin spill ? Anyway this was a first for me...

No pix of The IHs or the groat cause they got put somewhere safe in my truck
They'll turn up sometime.

This morning I identified my Oak threepence as a 'Noe-28', an 'R-6, 13-30 examples known' and she appears to be almost uncirculated and well struck (for Ma Silver) under that dirt.
Diagnostics on this one are easy, both legends start at lower left, 5 in date squashed.

Shown as an example is the Wurzbach plate coin of this variety, in the description he notes:

"Crosby could not find a specimen good enough to furnish a proper description. Excessively rare"

I take this to mean that he obtained a better specimen than Crosby, and was right proud of the fact.

Breen notes "All specimens I have examined are dogs, due to weak striking and weakly cut dies".

These quotes give you some idea of the apparent jealousy and competitiveness of collectors and 'experts' on Massachusetts silver.


given the condition of the best example I could find, I think mine is a looker.
Apparently these coins don't appear much in higher grades.

And a photo of a stern Colonial Governor from the period.


Trees seem to be sprouting all over this year.
Thanks for looking & HH Everyone

 

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[Bill D. (VA)]

Bill it's not the best way with hammered coins, they are to thin, especially if you can not see the intergrity of the coin, and Will's is well loaded with crud, I have had hammered crumble with electrolysis....no chance of that with the lemon juice.

SS

SS - I've used light electrolysis to clean black tarnish off a hammered coin and it worked great with no damage at all to the coin. However, to remove it took no longer than a minute or 2, and it was checked every 30 seconds. For Herbie's coin electrolysis probably isn't a good option due to the severity and thickness of the crud. But it wouldn't hurt to try it for 30 second intervals for a bit just to see what happens. I don't believe you can harm the coin doing it for that short of a time. And remember, electrolysis works from the inside out and it might not take much to loosen the interface between the coin and the crud depending on the nature of the corrosion. Probably better to try the lemon juice first, but I'll be surprised if it makes much headway (if any) against all the encrustation. Hope I'm proved wrong. Good luck Herbie!

 

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[Iron Patch]

SS - I've used light electrolysis to clean black tarnish off a hammered coin and it worked great with no damage at all to the coin. However, to remove it took no longer than a minute or 2, and it was checked every 30 seconds. For Herbie's coin electrolysis probably isn't a good option due to the severity and thickness of the crud. But it wouldn't hurt to try it for 30 second intervals for a bit just to see what happens. I don't believe you can harm the coin doing it for that short of a time. And remember, electrolysis works from the inside out and it might not take much to loosen the interface between the coin and the crud depending on the nature of the corrosion. Probably better to try the lemon juice first, but I'll be surprised if it makes much headway (if any) against all the encrustation. Hope I'm proved wrong. Good luck Herbie!

I've probably cleaned hundreds hammered silver and billon coins over the last 10 years and on many occasions have had great results with coins that looked just as corroded as his. The lemon in almost all cases will remove green corrosion and expose what's below... and sometimes it's good, and sometimes not so good, but it's not the process that made it worse like electrolysis can do. I'd love to have that Oak Tree in my hand to make an assessment because I see such great potential in the pics. I would say I'm about 90%+ sure I could clean that and have an incredible result. Billon is a little tougher to say because it's low grade silver, but a silver coin should always do very well. I've actually left silver in the lemon for days at a time with no negative result, and had a good cleaned coin in the end. I think Herbie just has to get a feel for how the lemon works and then he'll feel better about cleaning it.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

I've probably cleaned hundreds hammered silver and billon coins over the last 10 years and on many occasions have had great results with coins that looked just as corroded as his. The lemon in almost all cases will remove green corrosion and expose what's below... and sometimes it's good, and sometimes not so good, but it's not the process that made it worse like electrolysis can do. I'd love to have that Oak Tree in my hand to make an assessment because I see such great potential in the pics. I would say I'm about 90%+ sure I could clean that and have an incredible result. Billon is a little tougher to say because it's low grade silver, but a silver coin should always do very well. I've actually left silver in the lemon for days at a time with no negative result, and had a good cleaned coin in the end. I think Herbie just has to get a feel for how the lemon works and then he'll feel better about cleaning it.

OK - I surrender (waving white flag ....). Looking forward to seeing how that magical lemon juice works

 

[steelheadwill]

Can't say I've ever found a hammered silver but I'm with Bill D. on light electolysis. I dug an early Reale at the coast in very salty, sandy soil that was heavily crusted and tarnished and used a cell phone charger with small alligator clips. Zapped it for 15 seconds and the crust just fell off leaving a really nice looking silver coin. Now if this paricular coin is that thin and fragile I'd probably just leave it alone altogether and not risk breaking it. I'd be thrilled with it just like it is.

Thanks all
Wanted to let you all know the coin felt quite solid and heavy for a small denom.
should have weighed and measured it before I put it 'somewhere safe', along with a few dozen other things that I've misplaced
All joking aside, by monday I'll put up a pic of the cleaned coin.
Incidentally, while searching for images of other Noe-28 examples, I came across a couple interesting stories.
A former Collections Manager at the ANAs Money Museum stole one, along with approximately 300 other rarities including a 73 lb bar of shipwreck Spanish silver. (actually Peruvian), during his two months on the job.
He was convicted of 'Major Art Theft' and got a whopping 27 month sentence.
Money.org · Wyatt Yeager Sentenced to 27 months in ANA Museum Theft
So if you happen to see one of the coins on the list below at a price too good to be true,
you may want to jump on the deal. (and return it to the ANA of course)
http://www.money.org/ana_custom/StolenCoinsList.aspx
Here's a few pix of his picks, note that the three pence is another 'dog',
my recovery looks like it could be a contender for one of the finest specimens known,
one of those Chalmer shillings is on my wishlist..


Another story is that of a US Mint police officer who was convicted of pilfering presidential dollar coins before the edge lettering was struck.
judging by the restitution he was ordered to pay the Mint, approx 89,000 of them.
I have a few of these, no way of knowing if they are from this incident .
They were all reportedly sold to a single coin dealer for $20-$75 each,
and he deposited the $2.4 million in proceeds into his Police and Fire Federal Credit Union account. what a genius !
HH All
Judge sentences Mint police officer to prison | Coin World

 

[Silver Searcher]

OK - I surrender (waving white flag ....). Looking forward to seeing how that magical lemon juice works

Bill it does take a long time like IP says, I had a sceat in it for over a week, I knew it was a quite scarse one, because I could just make out part of the legend, so decided on the safe approach. You have to take it out from time to time to remove the crud, that has been dis-lodged. The coin on the right in the double picture, is the cleaned sceat, but you can see how bad it was by the first picture.

I actually used lemon juice, and toothpaste to clean this one, it was so bad. If you do the spit and foil test it will tell you if you have good silver, a strong rotten egg smell, and the foil getting hot, tells you good silver, if little or no reaction, then it's debased.

SS

 

[Iron Patch]

Looking at this again, just for the record Noe-28 is Rarity 4, not R6. Too bad because that's quite a gap in rarity, and also in value especially in a decent grade.

 

[steelheadwill]

Looking at this again, just for the record Noe-28 is Rarity 4, not R6. Too bad because that's quite a gap in rarity, and also in value especially in a decent grade.

Big gap indeed, Don't know where I got that rating, just checked my book and yup R-4
(why did I even have to check when you said so )
I misinterpreted Wurtzbach;s description of the 28 being 'Exceedingly rare' without looking at the actual #'
I'm still wirebrushing it, pix up soon

 

[steelheadwill]

When I look at that stolen 1792 HD, I sure do want one. think it's a pattern, so crude with the date jammed in there like an afterthought. Love It

 

[BomberJohn]

Just awesome! Comgrats!

John

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Great pics and love the details from your hunt Herbie!
I like this line . . . "Take a close look, hmm 1652, that's familiar. wrap in leaf and secure it."
When I find something good, I usually pack it in a moist dirtball until I can get home to clean it!
Take care buddy,
Dave

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks John and Dave!
Be careful that you don't put coppers in wetter dirt than what they are found in. I lost the surfaces of what appeared to be an awesome copper by doing this. when I later took it out of the moist dirt, was like it had been watered, peeling surfaces that were intact when I first brushed it
Anyway, I Got some of the crud off.

I just noticed the 'M' is upside down, don't recall this being mentioned in the #28 descriptions....

Note clear area with smooth surface, with more treatment the entire coin might turn out like that.

this is enough for me Thanks for looking

 

[fatkook626]

great job congrats on the banner

 

[steelheadwill]

Thanks John and Dave!
Be careful that you don't put coppers in wetter dirt than what they are found in. I lost the surfaces of what appeared to be an awesome copper by doing this. when I later took it out of the moist dirt, was like it had been watered, peeling surfaces that were intact when I first brushed it
Anyway, I Got some of the crud off.

I just noticed the 'M' is upside down, don't recall this being mentioned in the #28 descriptions....

Note clear area with smooth surface, with more treatment the entire coin might turn out like that.

this is enough for me Thanks for looking
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Thanks Fatkook! Unfortunately all images I find of Noe-28s have weak areas where the 'M' is located,
what I see on the best examples I found looks like a regular 'M', my example sure looks like the M is inverted, opinions
Here's the best examples I find

 

[saltyshark2002]

Those are some stellar finds, I have been a slump lately, I have only been able to find wheat pennies so far this year(got a 1917 yesterday in Exeter, NH). No silver yet for the year.

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks Fatkook! Unfortunately all images I find of Noe-28s have weak areas where the 'M' is located,
what I see on the best examples I found looks like a regular 'M', my example sure looks like the M is inverted, opinions
Here's the best examples I find

I'm guessing it's just the condition that makes it tough to tell. If it was, it would mean the die was corrected at some point (because the rest of your coin matches - only other alternative is a completely different coin) during the process, and I can't see them doing that, and question if they even could considering it's an engraved die. When you see corrections on later coins where the die was number punched, there's usually a sign of the correction... aka an overdate when it's a number. Letters now that I think of it they seem to tend to leave alone... but if they do correct it, it's pretty sloppy. I've seen that on counterfeit halfpennies.

 

[steelheadwill]

Those are some stellar finds, I have been a slump lately, I have only been able to find wheat pennies so far this year(got a 1917 yesterday in Exeter, NH). No silver yet for the year.

Thank you, Take heart Salty, they will come

 

[steelheadwill]

I'm guessing it's just the condition that makes it tough to tell. If it was, it would mean the die was corrected at some point (because the rest of your coin matches - only other alternative is a completely different coin) during the process, and I can't see them doing that, and question if they even could considering it's an engraved die. When you see corrections on later coins where the die was number punched, there's usually a sign of the correction... aka an overdate when it's a number. Letters now that I think of it they seem to tend to leave alone... but if they do correct it, it's pretty sloppy. I've seen that on counterfeit halfpennies.

Thanks IP,
Too bad there's no examples with a clear 'M'. the 28 was the first threepence with all the S's facing the correct way
theory is that the 28 was produced in 1662, when the twopence was made, they started producing some coins with punched planchets on a screw press. (the 28, the twopences, and small planchet pine shillings).
Most Mass silvers have the s bend from rocker pressing, but it appears that when coinage was needed,
(it was only needed when a customer brought silver to the mint for coining. Hull didn't make coins for the 'colony')
they would be produced with whatever dies and methods were useable and handy.
Even one of the 'NE' series appears to be made on a punched planchet.
Unlike what we are used to seeing with modern coinage, the Boston mint didn't stop producing older designs just because a new design was introduced. HH all.

 

[artyfacts]

Thanks Arty,
Got a theory on why 4 diverse coins were found in one hole.
there are several pieces of evidence I've found that bear this out.
The old cartpath was widened and the top surface was scraped off and pushed over the hillside in the late 19th century, along with everything that was lost on that path since first settlement.
As stated, the four coins were recovered almost accidentally after detecting maybe 20 square feet of area.
( iron whomp whomp whomp)
In between all the iron pipe, rusting barrels, modern trash, dense undergrowth and vicious thorns could be a lot more goodies.
Research brought me to the general area, chance brought my coil over the coins.
I haven't been back since my first visit.
When I told the property owner about the coins,
I was cut short and asked to just make sure to inform him if I recover any gold.
Well, a hammered gold has always been my grail
Got enough of those darned milled ones
HH All !

Your theory sounds right on... How long is this road? If its longer than a football field I dont think T-nets banner is going to be long enough. Glad you found the sweet spot... Art

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Very rare and a cool find Herbie!
Love all of the background history with all your posts too my friend.

Definitely helps put your finds in 'historical perspective' for me!
Dave

 

[PeteWmass]

hmm...I wish I had coins crusty enough (silver...) to play with.....Id like to try my citric (should work like lemon juice) and oxalic (may have no effect) acids and see what happens.....oxalic should be more gentle....but less effective....