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Thread: 1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

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  1. #1
    Congratulations to the Winner!

    Jan 2010
    New Castle NH.
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    1652 "As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony" Edward Randolph, Kings Agent

    Hi all,
    haven't posted anything in a while so I figured I'd show this dirty piece of silver.
    Hunted a new site and spent an hour in the pasty mud with not much to show,
    on the steep hillside along the water I noticed lots of scrap metal and trash,
    made my way up the hill gathering all the copper and brass I could eyeball.
    Turned on the Safari, stock coil was all I had with me,
    amazingly I picked a signal from the trash, dug an 1878 IH, check the hole,
    another 1878...
    check the hole, another signal, different numbers.
    Big root in the way, pulled some dirt from underneath, small silver coin
    Take a close look, hmm 1652, that's familiar. wrap in leaf and secure it.
    scan again, another signal. looks to be a Charles II Groat, now that's a rare find over here.

    Very Strange, coin spill over older coin spill ? Anyway this was a first for me...

    No pix of The IHs or the groat cause they got put somewhere safe in my truck
    They'll turn up sometime.

    This morning I identified my Oak threepence as a 'Noe-28', an 'R-6, 13-30 examples known' and she appears to be almost uncirculated and well struck (for Ma Silver) under that dirt.
    Diagnostics on this one are easy, both legends start at lower left, 5 in date squashed.

    Shown as an example is the Wurzbach plate coin of this variety, in the description he notes:

    "Crosby could not find a specimen good enough to furnish a proper description. Excessively rare"

    I take this to mean that he obtained a better specimen than Crosby, and was right proud of the fact.

    Breen notes "All specimens I have examined are dogs, due to weak striking and weakly cut dies".

    These quotes give you some idea of the apparent jealousy and competitiveness of collectors and 'experts' on Massachusetts silver.


    given the condition of the best example I could find, I think mine is a looker.
    Apparently these coins don't appear much in higher grades.

    And a photo of a stern Colonial Governor from the period.


    Trees seem to be sprouting all over this year.
    Thanks for looking & HH Everyone
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    Last edited by steelheadwill; May 19, 2013 at 09:45 AM.
    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition

  2. #2
    Another great goodie, will have to look up that variety later, but big congratulations are in order, again!

    Don
    steelheadwill and BuckleBoy like this.
    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  3. #3
    us
    Apr 2012
    Mid-Missouri
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    Wow!! I've never heard of a coin that old being found in the states. I'm guessing this is extremely rare?
    steelheadwill likes this.

  4. #4
    Congratulations to the Winner!

    Jan 2010
    New Castle NH.
    Brain eyes ears and nose
    6,642
    639 times
    Working to end Western Dominator Society, Scourge of the Modern World
    Banner Finds (6)
    Thanks Don and Digs
    The Mass silvers were the first coins struck in north america,
    and an early sign of the rebellious nature of 'The Colonies',
    Not all are rare, but they are all nice to find
    Info Here, scroll to bottom for links to descriptions and pix of different types:
    Massachusetts Bay Silver General Introduction




    In 1678 Charles II sent an agent, Edward Randolph to investigate the shortage of taxes being paid by the colonies, in his report he stated:
    " As a mark of their soveraignty, they coyn mony, stamped with the inscription masathvsets and a tree in the center on one side, and new england with the year 1652 and the value of the piece on the reverse.
    All the mony is stamped with these figures, 1652 that being the era of their common-wealth, wheirin they have erected themselves as a free state, enlarged their dominions, subjected the adjacent colonies under their obedience, and summoned deputies to their own general court, of which year they still commemorate on their coyn"

    Not exactly true, the two pences are dated 1662, the reasoning behind this is another point of contention among the 'experts' because all others are dated 1652, (excepting the 'NE' series) though they were minted till 1678 or so...
    Last edited by steelheadwill; May 12, 2013 at 10:41 AM.
    ANTIQUARIAN likes this.
    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition

  5. #5
    Charter Member
    us
    Fly Navy!

    Jun 2008
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    Nice find steelheadwill!
    steelheadwill likes this.
    .:: We SaluteOur Veterans ::.

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  6. #6
    Congratulations to the Winner!

    Jan 2010
    New Castle NH.
    Brain eyes ears and nose
    6,642
    639 times
    Working to end Western Dominator Society, Scourge of the Modern World
    Banner Finds (6)
    The series is also intriguing because they were not struck chronologically as are todays coins,
    evidence shows that some of the earlier designs were struck after later ones started being issued.
    Case in point, this example is perfectly round, which points to the planchet being punched before being struck, rather than sheared from a strip after striking.
    it is also perfectly flat, evidently not struck in a rocker press which would leave a bend in the coin.
    on the other hand I have a Pine tree with the S bend and clipped edges from rocker press strike that should be flat and round from a screw press.
    From what I've been reading, John Hull reused dies and striking techniques in somewhat random fashion over the years.
    (from "An Historical Introduction to the Coins Of Massachusetts Bay" Stacks Auction House)

    Concerning the NE variety Micheal Hodder states: "NE shillings were made on round blanks cut by a cookie-cutter kind on planchet cutter. NE's might have been made at the same time that Willows were, maybe even when Oaks and Pines were, too! Some I've seen look very sophisticated! Some day I'll do a monograph on the MA silver series." Hodder does not dispute the NE's came first, rather he suspects their production may have continued after the advent of the more complex design specified in the October 19, 1652 legislation.
    Last edited by steelheadwill; May 12, 2013 at 08:21 AM.
    ANTIQUARIAN likes this.
    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition

  7. #7
    us
    Mar 2012
    South Jersey
    Whites Eagle Spectrum,Whites Coinmaster 6000 DI Pro
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    Metal Detecting
    Great find Will
    steelheadwill likes this.

  8. #8
    us
    fishstick

    Oct 2012
    Indiana
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    I'd say you got another one goin up top WILL!!!! Beautiful is a understatement.. THANX for not only showin us the coin but given us the KNOWLEDGE on them also bud!!! CONGRATS.... HH

  9. #9
    us
    Jul 2012
    Western New York
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    Wow I think I would have a stroke! Awesome find
    Dig until your arm falls off

  10. #10
    Congratulations to the Winner!

    Jan 2010
    New Castle NH.
    Brain eyes ears and nose
    6,642
    639 times
    Working to end Western Dominator Society, Scourge of the Modern World
    Banner Finds (6)
    Thanks Johnny and Fishstick,
    When I find something I like to learn about it, and sharing the information.
    Research is really important for site selection too,
    I didn't just happen to come across this site randomly, though my OP may give this impression,.
    Best Digs All
    ANTIQUARIAN likes this.
    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition

  11. #11
    Congratulations to the Winner!

    Jan 2010
    New Castle NH.
    Brain eyes ears and nose
    6,642
    639 times
    Working to end Western Dominator Society, Scourge of the Modern World
    Banner Finds (6)
    Quote Originally Posted by recondigger View Post
    Wow I think I would have a stroke! Awesome find
    Thanks Recon
    While I was searching the mud, my feet kept getting stuck, twist to break the suction and pull every step.
    it was really thick muck, nice workout.
    lack of targets was likely that they sunk too deep, most mud has a clay or gravel base 6-8" down, not here, if you don't keep moving, you keep sinking.
    I should have skipped the mudsearch, could have gotten my coins and scrap and been back to work in 30 minutes.
    Last edited by steelheadwill; May 12, 2013 at 08:20 AM.
    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition

  12. #12
    us
    Dec 2011
    Winchester, VA.
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    Congrats Herbie. Very nice coin!!!
    steelheadwill likes this.
    If it sounds good, Dig It

  13. #13
    WOW - you've done it again Herbie! Isn't that like 3 in the last year or so?? Looks like you're continuing to swing your coil over the right (although muddy) spots. Is this from a site you researched, or just something you stumbled across? We might find older hammered coins down this way, but never heard of a whole Mass silver being dug here in SE Virginia. Please send some down this way. Awesome find ..... again!!!
    steelheadwill and BuckleBoy like this.

  14. #14

    May 2008
    XP Deus
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    710 times
    That's just beyond cool Herbie . Drive your truck down to MA and I will find that groat for you.
    steelheadwill likes this.

  15. #15
    us
    Oct 2009
    Jersey Cape
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    Wow that's the way to make a comeback appearance , your Best Mass Tree coin yet .

    Banner Worthy Every Day of The Week , Huge Congrats on this one , votes in

    Top Shelf Find !

    dawg
    Last edited by CMDiamonddawg; May 12, 2013 at 09:43 AM. Reason: wishing a tree would sprout up in my back yard
    steelheadwill likes this.

 

 
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