Caltrop?

[Beeps in my sleep]

This was found in front of a fort built in the 1700s to protect against indian attacks. Shippensburg also was invaded by 20,000 confederates during the civil war. I know setlers used to throw these out to stop Indians in pursuit but it also stopped calvary. Does this look like civil war or french and indian war to you guys?

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

Diggin'PA, first, please read the "About me" section of my Profile. The book is wrong. The object in the photo is variously known as a Mill-Star, Tumbler-Star, or Jack-Star, and is in actual fact tumbler-mill media. Ask yourself, as you see the object sitting in the photo, how could it pierce horse's hoof or a soldier's boot (or even, shoe-sole)? A caltrop MUST have a tetrahedral (four-pointed) form in order for it to sit on the ground with one of its spines always pointing STRAIGHT UP, to impale the foot of whoever steps on it. Caltrop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6-pointed object found by Beeps In My Sleep and another in the book's photo won't sit with one point sticking straight up.

As I said in the previous TreasureNet discussion linked by SCDigginWithAK,
Caltrops that aren't caltrops .. Caltrops that aren't Jacks .. "Caltrops That Aren't"
the object in the photo is shown in an old Encyclopedia Of Metalcasting, but I lost the link to that Googlebook when my computer's hard-drive crashed beyond repair.

We also have the testimony of fellow TreasureNet member Fmerg, who used to work in a Metalfinishing workshop and said "I remember seeing some thing like these used in tumblers to knock off large pieces of slag when I worked in a machine shop. They were magnetic and used in a tumbler."

Also, the civil war relics website's photos at the link posted by Beeps In My Sleep of so-called "caltrops" for sale are SHINY-BRIGHT iron. Doesn't that raise any suspicion that they are not 150 years old? (You'll also see lots of the same thing for sale on Ebay in completely un-rusted condition.)

Why is the one Beeps In My Sleep found at a 250-year-old fort in shiny and COMPLETELY UN-PITTED condition? Even if he cleaned it by Electrolysis it ought to have at least SOME rust-pits from being in the ground for 200-250 years. Also, note that its points are too blunt to pierce shoe-leather or a horse's hoof. If they corroded down to bluntness, why doesn't the rest of the object show the same degree of rust-pitting?

Caltrops had to be used in quantities of hundreds or at least dozens to be effective. A reasonable-minded person would ask, why is it that hardly any of the tens-of-tousands of relic hunters in the US have ever dug even one of these 6-pointed objects, but hundreds are available in NON-EXCAVATED condition on Ebay and civil war relics websites? (Note that there are five of them for sale at the website linked by Beeps In My Sleep.)

The real problem comes down to this:
There is something in Human Nature which VERY much prefers to believe "I've found a rare and valuable historical relic" -- and no amount of contradictory evidence is enough to convince the finder that he is mistaken. I run into that problem every month with people who show me a rusty iron ball and want me to agree that it is a cannonball. It doesn't matter that the ball has a number 12 stamped in it, proving that it is a Sports Shot Put ball. It doesn't matter that its size doesn't correctly fit any caliber of historical cannon. By golly, it's ABSOLUTELY a rare and valuable cannonball, and it forever will be in the finder's mind.

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

HutSiteDigger wrote:
> I don't think Peter George (CannonBallGuy here on TN) who is one of those experts - believes
> caltrops were used in the war?

You are correct... as I've written dozens of times, there is absolutely NO written record of the use of caltrops in the American civil war. For example, check the 125-volume set of record-books titled "The War of the Rebellion: a Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies. Author: United States War Dept." You can view the approximately 100,000 pages of records in them online, for free, in KEYWORD-SEARCHABLE format, at the Cornell University Library website, here: Browse | Cornell University Library Making of America Collection
Do the keyword-search there for the word caltrop, or caltrops, OR any of their alternative names, caltrap or crows's-feet. You'll see that none of those words appear anywhere in the Official Records of the civil war. My point: If caltrops were used in the civil war, there ought to be a mention of caltrops somewhere in the massive compiled records of the Union and Confederate armies. Surely SOMEBODY would have reported something like "The march of our regiment was delayed when we encountered caltrops laid by the rebels on the Williamsburg road." Or, "Captain Smith's horse was injured by a caltrop." But no, there is not even ONE mention of caltrops in the 100,000+ pages of reports from the US and CS armies (which were compiled after the war by the US Government and published in the form of 125 books, each containng 800 to 1,000 pages of reports, totaling over 100,000 pages).

That ought to flatly "close the book" on the question of whether or not caltrops were used in the civil war... but as you see from Beeps In My Sleeps post, there are websites selling "civil war caltrops."

 

[lookindown]

CBG is right...it doesn't have a point that sticks straight up and its way too smooth...that thing has been tumbled...that would be one of the most common finds on a civil war battle field...CannonballGuy has me convinced...if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it might be a goose.

 

[jeff of pa]

although I have one somewhere, I don't think they are French & Indian war,
unless the French gave them to the Indians to use.

plus from reading local F&I War history,
there was not allot of horse traffic around here yet.

& there was no Civil War traffic near here other then Training camps.

But going by all info other then a few members that disagree, it does
seem to be a Civil war era Caltrop, so unless someone has perfected a
way to prove a Negative, I'm going with Civil war era Caltrop [h=2][/h]

 

[Silver Searcher]

Nasty horrible things, just like land mines, but the spikes look to smooth on this one, but it would certainly coble anything standing on it. You have to agree there is no warranted documentation on them ever being used, during the American Civil War.

The Truth About Caltrops

SS

 

[jeff of pa]

Nasty horrible things, just like land mines, but the spikes look to smooth on this one, but it would certainly coble anything standing on it. You have to agree there is no warranted documentation on them ever being used, during the American Civil War.

The Truth About Caltrops

SS

is there 100% "warranted documentation" of any war, as to tactics used ?
sometimes during wars , things are suggested that they know just ain't right,
But in desperation are used.

a horse weighs how Much ? a marble would probably take care of a horse in the right circumstance, as could a child's jack

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Like I have stated on here.. I do think Caltrops were test outed during the war - I do not think the one this user posted has been in the ground 150 + years. I think the caltrops that might have been tested out during the civil war, were more like the ones i posted in the 1st page in the photo. Is there any archaeology evidence? does the National Park Service archaeologist have any say in this? have they dug 100 or 100+ caltrops out of a battle field area? like CBG was saying - in order for a caltrop to be affect you have to lay them out in the 100 or 100s. I have researched many many forts like Fort Sanders and have determine they did not lay out caltrops in Fort areas, barb wire, holes with spikes, etc, were dug out. Out of the 1000s + documents I have researched of the Civil War I have not seen the world "caltrops" on any traps or fort areas or any cavalry type battles I have researched. I would seriously like to see archaeology evidence of the use of caltrops in the Civil War.

 

[jeff of pa]

Like I have stated on here.. I do think Caltrops were test outed during the war - I do not think the one this user posted has been in the ground 150 + years. I think the caltrops that might have been tested out during the civil war, were more like the ones i posted in the 1st page in the photo. Is there any archaeology evidence? does the National Park Service archaeologist have any say in this? have they dug 100 or 100+ caltrops out of a battle field area? like CBG was saying - in order for a caltrop to be affect you have to lay them out in the 100 or 100s. I have researched many many forts like Fort Sanders and have determine they did not lay out caltrops in Fort areas, barb wire, holes with spikes, etc, were dug out. Out of the 1000s + documents I have researched of the Civil War I have not seen the world "caltrops" on any traps or fort areas or any cavalry type battles I have researched. I would seriously like to see archaeology evidence of the use of caltrops in the Civil War.

I do agree Beeps looks overly Cleaned (new) like when people clean Mini Balls

If he says he Dug it, That's good enough for me though

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Sorry I meant to say Caltrops were not used @ any forts like Fort Sanders... But Barb wire and holes with spikes were dug out... but not caltrops.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

I do agree Beeps looks overly Cleaned (new) like when people clean Mini Balls

If he says he Dug it, That's good enough for me though

I do think Beeps did dig this outta the ground. However, I do not think it is 150+ years old... But i will tell you. If I first started out relic hunting and dug this caltrop in a civil war area or camp area, i'd be screaming CIVIL WAR too

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Ok.. I have a good archaeology friend of mine (who actually respects MDers) who has been doing this for quite some time with Civil War and 18th century sites: tell me on facebook "I had not heard of this type of a semi-weapon used during the Civil War! Sorry to say it is first time I have heard of them, really?" and said he will seriously look into it.. I will also now ask a few other Civil War experts in my area about this.. Give me a few days and I will figure this all out.

I also gave him the link to the one in question.

 

[treblehunter]

Very interesting thread, nice find, cool debate. I hope someone finds out it is CW for you. If not it is still a cool find.

 

[atprolen]

Great trend and debate !! Hope the true use is found. Any thoughts of projectile ?? Iam not much on cival war history but have heard many different things were stuffed in canons or blunderbuss is it possible ??

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[Diggin'PA]

Number one: Cannonball Guy... I didn't question your credentials so why do I need to read your "About ME" Second: I offered to this discussion to share an image that was used in a published Civil War Encyclopedia that shows a similar item to what was found. I didn't offer a personal opinion to say whether it was or wasn't a caltrop... Ok Cannonball? ... . I thought this forum was for sharing and discussing finds and not bullying people about their finds...

Diggin'PA, first, please read the "About me" section of my Profile. The book is wrong. The object in the photo is variously known as a Mill-Star, Tumbler-Star, or Jack-Star, and is in actual fact tumbler-mill media. Ask yourself, as you see the object sitting in the photo, how could it pierce horse's hoof or a soldier's boot (or even, shoe-sole)? A caltrop MUST have a tertrahedral (four-pointed) form in order for it to sit on the ground with one of its spines always pointing STRAIGHT UP, to impale the foot of whoever steps on it. Caltrop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6-pointed object found by Beeps In My Sleep and another in the book's photo won't sit with one point sticking straight up.

As I said in the previous TreasureNet discussion linked by SCDigginWithAK,
Caltrops that aren't caltrops .. Caltrops that aren't Jacks .. "Caltrops That Aren't"
the object in the photo is shown in an old Encyclopedia Of Metalcasting, but I lost the link to that Googlebook when my computer's hard-drive crashed beyond repair.

We also have the testimony of fellow TreasureNet member Fmerg, who used to work in a Metalfinishing workshop and said "I remember seeing some thing like these used in tumblers to knock off large pieces of slag when I worked in a machine shop. They were magnetic and used in a tumbler."

Also, the civil war relics website's photos at the link posted by Beeps In My Sleep of so-called "caltrops" for sale are SHINY-BRIGHT iron. Doesn't that raise any suspicion that they are not 150 years old? (You'll also see lots of the same thing for sale on Ebay in completely un-rusted condition.)

Why is the one Beeps In My Sleep found at a 250-year-old fort in shiny and COMPLETELY UN-PITTED condition? Even if he cleaned it by Electrolysis it ought to have at least SOME rust-pits from being in the ground for 200-250 years. Also, note that its points are too blunt to pierce shoe-leather or a horse's hoof. If they corroded down to bluntness, why doesn't the rest of the object show the same degree of rust-pitting?

Caltrops had to be used in quantities of hundreds or at least dozens to be effective. A reasonable-minded person would ask, why is it that hardly any of the tens-of-tousands of relic hunters in the US have ever dug even one of these 6-pointed objects, but hundreds are available in NON-EXCAVATED condition on Ebay and civil war relics websites? (Note that there are five of them for sale at the website linked by Beeps In My Sleep.)

The real problem comes down to this:
There is something in Human Nature which VERY much prefers to believe "I've found a rare and valuable historical relic" -- and no amount of contradictory evidence is enough to convince the finder that he is mistaken. I run into that problem every month with people who show me a rusty iron ball and want me to agree that it is a cannonball. It doesn't matter that the ball has a number 12 stamped in it, proving that it is a Sports Shot Put ball. It doesn't matter that its size doesn't correctly fit any caliber of historical cannon. By golly, it's ABSOLUTELY a rare and valuable cannonball, and it forever will be in the finder's mind.

 

[jeff of pa]

calm down People

I Don't expect a Spanish Inquisition

 

[jeff of pa]

 

[ivan salis]

that thinner type is commonly called "crows feet" and are designed to cripple men's feet as well as horses if stepped up[on.

 

[DocBeav]

No expert here either on this subject but I could see something like this being used to deny or confound cavalry efforts to certain areas or positions. Something like that could just be designed to get stuck in a horses's hooves/shoes being that it (they) are smaller than the larger, thinner, spiked versions that would also be effective against foot soldiers.

Any horse experts here? Wouldn't something like this cause a horse to be out of commission until the rider could remove it (them) if some were to become stuck in hoves or under shoes? Maybe that this type (or any others) were only used on a limited basis or had homemade ones used out of necessity during desperate times. Consider that the locals and soldiers defending the area and the fort were probably scared sh**less about the Confederates coming their way and would have used any trick available to slow them down or deny access to certain roads or areas. Maybe they are originally made for something else but "re-purposed" as caltrops at a time of need.

Again, no expert, just floating ideas/opinions. I respect the expert opinions here but new historical discoveries are made all the time while others remain a mystery much longer.

 

[TheCoinKid]

Maybe they are originally made for something else but "re-purposed" as caltrops at a time of need.

I've wondered about this, myself, from the onset of this discussion. Does anyone know if the so called mill-stars were in use at the time of the civil war?

I have to give quite a bit of weight to the location found when evaluating the item and it's use. Unless there are/were metal factories in the area that might employ such an item (Beeps, you know of any?), I wouldn't be able to rule out use as a caltrop.

For those who are asserting the relic to be a modern item (too good of condition to be civil war or prior), I hope you are suggesting it was also a modern drop, as anything contrary would be tantamount to calling the OP/Finder a liar, which I'm pretty sure is against forum rules.

In any event, caltrop or not, I don't think the OP/Finder has been treated with the respect he deserves. Just as the OP/Finder has been characterized by some as becoming emotionally invested in his find, it appears to me that a couple of forum experts (no disrespect intended) are equally emotionally invested in their counter position. Right or wrong, they just come across a bit too strong.

TCK (not a caltrop expert)

 

[ivan salis]

being caltrops or crows feet or whatever you wish to call them were in use long before the civil war occurred * and the fact that the civil war was quite nasty and brutal with just about anything that could be used as a weapon being used --why even if its not "officially written down" on paper that they were in fact used -- would a person have a hard time being that they could have been used? --the "crows feet" type of course would be quite handy to lame up both men and horses both and to put out as a defensive item in front of set trench lines to help breakup a charge -- or to slow up pursuing mounted troops