Cellar Hole USA relic-found in Mass - Revealed- BTW I got educated

[Castineman1779]

Hey folks thank you all for your opinions on a USA relic I posted just the other day. Got a lot of responses as what it was. Some wags a few very close and Plumbata and Borntolate were on the money and figured out it was a map marker. If you had seen the movie "The Patriot " when Mel and the Colonial were in the tent look at the USA and GR map markers as they were talking about stratergies.
Now my intent here was to educate you to something rarely seen but thanks to Casper who sent me a PM with a question if I had found it the real story emerges and I am the one and hope you guys and gals get educated to fakes out there sold as authentic. Yes indeed today I learned it was a fake .
First of all I would not list a relic on TM and put my name as the finder as I told Casper in the answer to his question so here is the history of the find . In 1999 I was surfing on Ebay and saw a listing of relics said to have been found at a cellar hole in East Hampton, Mass. In the lot were two King George Coppers, early colonial plain buttons, a few dropped musket balls and this USA item I thought might be a French import USA button. The USA item was not highlighted and I asked the seller, his name is Paul and email of Arrowpaul , about that item. He said it was found with the relics, coins and MBs and new nothing more about it. I won the auction for $103 and got the lot in and described the USA relic in my other posting . I enjoyed it for years and finally after knowing it was not a cockade button, button die or refined it to what it probably was a map marker that once had a round piece of wood on it that rotted away over years in the ground. Up until today I believed it to be true. However why I did list it was to get some Feedback if in fact it was not . Casper educated me that he had learned a guy in either Mass or NH were making these as fakes.
It's apparent this guy is good since he used the pattern of a French import button listed in Troiani's button book to make the fakes. So now we are all educated and should be aware if we collect this stuff what to look for. This faker indeed is good and if you know a relic hunter named Arrowpaul now you know the true story. Here are pics f a real Rev WAr officer's USA button used to make these.

 

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[Plumbata]

I like being on the money, but am terribly sorry that it isn't a genuine piece. I've been burned by convincing fake Copper Culture artifacts and know the feeling. Thanks for sharing the word and keeping us informed regarding the shady side of the hobby. Keep up the good work, and may many genuine relics greet your coil in the future.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Always important to post your own finds here and not finds you bought on eBay or anywhere else. You should have stated right away that it was not found by you personally and asked for opinions on it's authenticity.

 

[Castineman1779]

I like being on the money, but am terribly sorry that it isn't a genuine piece. I've been burned by convincing fake Copper Culture artifacts and know the feeling. Thanks for sharing the word and keeping us informed regarding the shady side of the hobby. Keep up the good work, and may many genuine relics greet your coil in the future.

Well trust what you dig and yes it was a surprise since I cherished it to be the real deal. The history in the hand is not history at all. Hope the education is helpful. Thanks Gary

 

[Bass]

Great post and thanks for sharing your experience. This is a great educational tool

 

[Castineman1779]

Always important to post your own finds here and not finds you bought on eBay or anywhere else. You should have stated right away that it was not found by you personally and asked for opinions on it's authenticity.

Your right and the intent was not meant to deceive but to educate. Guess that is good advice I will learn from. Anything I post ,if I do again, will be my relics and not be in this section since not fresh finds .

 

[Castineman1779]

Great post and thanks for sharing your experience. No deceit meant.This is a great educational tool

Well I just got educated by Freebirdtim and probably deserve that but thought the relic was important enough to share with the TN community regardless where found. Figured a good place for it to be since other sections get 1/3 or less attention. The main point is it was ided as a fake and now we know that deceit is in many man's hearts for the all mighty dollar. Other sections get few reads and why I choose this section.

 

[pong12211]

Very nice post and thanks for sharing your findings.

 

[Castineman1779]

Always important to post your own finds here and not finds you bought on eBay or anywhere else. You should have stated right away that it was not found by you personally and asked for opinions on it's authenticity.

You certainly have a good point . As for authentic I thought it was and represented it that way and not looking for an opinion in the first place. That may sound arrogant but some times we trust folks to be honest. Obviously not the real world. It just so happened Casper had info on it and shared it with me in a PM of which I am grateful plus maybe the education with get to folks in case more are found. He was not sure some fakes may have been planted so that is another story in itself. Not uncommon to seed a site, a relic hunter finds a relic then presto it must be real. So I will take the hit on your remarks but not sorry how I wrote this up. End result folks learned .

 

[Ahab8]

The best part of Tnet is when mysteries get solved with the help of other members. I truly believe that there's some members on here that are legitimate experts in certain fields. I'm always amazed at the knowledge of the members. And I don't blame you for posting in this section as the others get little attention. This was fun and with an interesting twist at the end. I'm glad the truth was revealed

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Didn't mean to rag on you. It must really stink to treasure something for 15 years and then find out it's fake. I was suspicious mainly because I couldn't find one on eBay or with a Google image search. That almost never happens with relics posted here, even the rare finds.

The amazing condition was a red flag as well. I've dug a lot of pewter spoons and buttons and almost all have been totally trashed from being in the ground. Pewter does not usually fair well in the ground up here in New England.

 

[johnnyblaze]

Gary your post made me thrown on The Patriot..

It wasn't hard as it's about my 200th time seeing it!

Im watching now and when that scene comes on i will give a smirk and think of ya!!

I learned from this also.

~Blaze~

 

[PeteWmass]

interesting - there are only a couple cellar holes in Easthampton (I live in the next town) - and I know two Paul's who detect right around here - though Im not sure how frequently they get out - Id like to know where the NE silver coin turned up in Easthampton (the precursor to the tree coins - just stamped NE on one side -for New England - and VII or whatever the denomination on the other side) - interesting - I mostly stay in Northampton as opposed to Easthampton - hmmmm

 

[Castineman1779]

Didn't mean to rag on you. It must really stink to treasure something for 15 years and then find out it's fake. I was suspicious mainly because I couldn't find one on eBay or with a Google image search. That almost never happens with relics posted here, even the rare finds.

The amazing condition was a red flag as well. I've dug a lot of pewter spoons and buttons and almost all have been totally trashed from being in the ground. Pewter does not usually fair well in the ground up here in New England.

Hey I have a thick skin and again probably deserved it. As for pewter you are right as most items, especially buttons, rot in the ground. However there are two exceptions to that. One found in good ground, and believe it or not there is some good ground if not fertilized in New England and British pewter buttons that were cast here for replacements when they were lost off the coats. Here are some pics of ones I found in Maine.
Now as for finding a USA item online I searched as you did and did my research and found none. Not meaning they did not exist only none were known. That does happen on occasion. As for condition if you had it in hand you can see much better than my pics it has some corrosion on the surface as well as at one time it was enameled as about 60% is still on the face. The back more light corrosion on it as would be with larger pewter relics. This being one of them. Now all the information I got it being a fake was from Casper2 who emailed me yesterday about his opinion and I am still waiting to see one he wrote his friend has in silver. Even though he said they are fake I will buy that opinion when he shows me a like example. I sent him an email this morning to get permission to post what he wrote. He did write in the early episodes of Pawn Stars" a few of them were brought in and Rick bought them. I have watched probably every episode of that show more than once and have not seen one yet. If anyone has seen it let me know. You know as a collector of Rev War buttons and relics for 20 years this is the first one I have ever seen and that was 15 years ago so where are the rest?

 

[pepperj]

It's not a bad thing to get an education from the school of hard knocks, it's a lesson that one doesn't forget soon. It's like the ol' saying fool me once shame on me-fool me twice shame on you. It's interesting that you held on to this for 16 years believing one thing and finding out different and it appears that you're schooled in the subject more than most and it still happened, what chance do the rest of us have in obtaining an authentic piece.

In other countries there is a high motivation in getting high value for articles that have been reproduced then buried for a few years after they have been subjected to solutions to corrode them, then claiming the article to be antique and then selling it to a unsuspecting buyer.

Interesting thread and it makes one think about buying anything.

 

[Castineman1779]

It's not a bad thing to get an education from the school of hard knocks, it's a lesson that one doesn't forget soon. It's like the ol' saying fool me once shame on me-fool me twice shame on you. It's interesting that you held on to this for 16 years believing one thing and finding out different and it appears that you're schooled in the subject more than most and it still happened, what chance do the rest of us have in obtaining an authentic piece.

In other countries there is a high motivation in getting high value for articles that have been reproduced then buried for a few years after they have been subjected to solutions to corrode them, then claiming the article to be antique and then selling it to a unsuspecting buyer.

Interesting thread and it makes one think about buying anything.

I will be more than happy to respond about being a knowledgeable collector and having it now since 1999 when it was supposedly found by a fellow relic hunter. First of all in 1995 I retired from the Army and moved back to Maine. I had collected Civil War items and knew nothing about the Revolutionary War. That interest came in late 1995 when I learned of a Rev War site in my state and started hunting it. For the first 5 years on Ebay I sold CW relics and found thousands of Rev War relics and many buttons. I did not buy Rev WAr relics and by 1999 when this came on Ebay fakery was not alive and unwell in this field. My knowledge was limited in Rev War. I think in now 20 years as a relic hunter have educated myself to know a lot about fakery as it was pretty rampant in CW and killing that market. Now I know a lot about just about everything in this field and so far this is the only relic item I have had to pay for the education and that was only $103 and cheap since many folks out there pay thousands for it. So I consider myself lucky . Ebay is often called "The House of Thieves and fakers and that will never change .
I will say this for the USA relic how did it get into the mind of a faker anyway? Bought mine in 1999 before even Troiani's button book even came out . Examples are in Albert's button book as French import USA's and they were made in pewter for the bi-centennial. However this exact design is not in the books and the closest is only 23mm this one much larger at almost 30mm. So did this once exist and found near that cellar hole and original or not and possibly a copy made from it. That is the $64,000 question and may never be answered. This USA item has been seen by all the experts and they really did not know what it was made for.
As for fakes I don't think any collectable worth money has been tampered with. Yes I am sure many collectors have just said that is enough or at least educated themselves .

 

[Pacific]

Thanks for keeping us up to date. I've certainly learnt something, being quite new to all of this, so thanks, great post.

 

[Castineman1779]

You certainly have a good point . As for authentic I thought it was and represented it that way and not looking for an opinion in the first place. That may sound arrogant but some times we trust folks to be honest. Obviously not the real world. It just so happened Casper had info on it and shared it with me in a PM of which I am grateful plus maybe the education with get to folks in case more are found. He was not sure some fakes may have been planted so that is another story in itself. Not uncommon to seed a site, a relic hunter finds a relic then presto it must be real. So I will take the hit on your remarks but not sorry how I wrote this up. End result folks learned .

Ahab8 my friend this is Gary from Bangor. Been a long time since I have even been on Tnet. Yes after 23 years still relic hunting Castine. Yesterday I found probably the most rare treasure from my site in Castine . Was not on my "Bucket List" and worthy of a post. Not that I have not found relics worthy of Tnet but this one is indeed a "Shock & Awe " moment I want to share with others. Before I do will share with u. U ca contact me at Gedgeco7@ aol.com. Hope all is well with u and your family. Gary

 

[Hawks88]

Great post. Thanks for all the information.

 

[CASPER-2]

Arrowpaul is long gone because he was a faker also - he and another guy were faking arrow heads and selling them on ebay
they went to a class that taught how to make them and got so good at it they started to pass them off as the real thing and got
big money for many of them - I heard they finally got caught but only penalty was they got thrown off ebay
they used to post a good looking one and if they hooked a few bidders - the other then would jump in to compete and get others to
fight for it and get bids up - if others gave up and the other partner won - they would not of course charge the other - they would
just make it look legit and try again with another - I heard they both made a few thousand doing this in the early 2000s