Ammo anyone?

[cudamark]

I found this clump of ammunition today at a local beach! It's close to Camp Pendleton so probably got away from them during one of their war games. Live rounds but no bullets. Probably blanks or maybe tracers. They have a variety of letters and numbers stamped on the head. WA54, TW54 SL54, LC54, Etc. This clump probably weighs 35-40 lbs! I don't know age or usage at this point. Maybe one of you weapons experts might know?

 

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[NOLA_Ken]

They look like the old crimp type blanks to me in a machine gun belt, 54 is 1954, I don't know the WA mark, might be Winchester, TW is Twin Cities arsenal in Minneapolis, SL is St Louis Arsenal, but I thought it was shut down after WW2 so the 54 doesn't make sense there... LC is Lake City in Independence MO,

A buddy of my grandfather who trained out there in WW2 told me that the guys would get tired of carrying all the blank ammo for the machine guns and some would just bury it and claim it all got used, you might have found one of those stashes...

 

[payload77]

The whole nine yards!

 

[UnderMiner]

Neat, that's a piece of rarely studied American history - the domestic WWII training missions. This encrustation of metal will look great as a display in your man cave.
Reminds me of an underwater scene for that movie The Deep when the characters are exploring the inside of the sunken warship.

 

[huntsman53]

Heck of a find! I don't believe you would want them on display in your' man cave as they are live rounds. I saw thousands of rounds from WWII dug up and found in ponds at the Grafenwöhr the Training Center in Germany that were still live and dangerous. It would be best to contact local Law Enforcement or the Ordinance Disposal unit at Camp Pendleton to deal with them.


Frank

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Heck of a find! I don't believe you would want them on display in your' man cave as they are live rounds. I saw thousands of rounds from WWII dug up and found in ponds at the Grafenwöhr the Training Center in Germany that were still live and dangerous. It would be best to contact local Law Enforcement or the Ordinance Disposal unit at Camp Pendleton to deal with them.


Frank

Those old crimp type blanks were sealed with something similar to shellac as I remember, because the crimps were rarely truly air or moisture tight....being in the ground long enough to look like that I'd expect the sealant to have degraded to the point that any powder inside would be fouled completely and the primers as well. The cases used to make those blanks were often ones that didn't meet the specs to be used as live rounds, and as I remember back then they were loaded with cheap black powder, because it creates less cup pressure which ensures less chance of the crimped end fragmenting and causing problems in the gun or actually leaving the muzzle and causing injuries. This is why even with a blank adapter sometimes they won't cycle the gun, or might stovepipe..Not enough pressure to operate the bolt. Also this is why blanks burn much dirtier than regular live rounds and cause so much fouling. Anyone who's ever burned a lot of blank rounds through their rifle can tell you nightmare stories of trying to get all the gunk out. Long story short, so long as you don't hit them with a hammer or toss them in a fire there's nothing much to worry about. It's up to you of course what you do with them, I'd be tempted to clean all the sand off and display them with the story of where they were found. If you don't want to keep them, or are nervous having them around, toss em off a bridge into salt water and they'll completely degrade in a few years and never be anyone's problem again.

 

[wheatfinder13]

Those are cool. I'd display them

 

[MuckyBottles]

Display away

 

[cudamark]

After 45 years of detecting, display space is rather limited! I'd have to put on an addition to the house! In this case, I only took home some of the bits that broke off. You can see them on the left and right in the photo. It was about a mile and half trek uphill to the truck, so, the thought of lugging that load that far after several hours of detecting, made me think twice about it. I reburied the rest back where I found it. I may go back later to retrieve it. There isn't any vehicle access to that area, so, I'd have to pack it out.

 

[cudamark]

They look like the old crimp type blanks to me in a machine gun belt, 54 is 1954, I don't know the WA mark, might be Winchester, TW is Twin Cities arsenal in Minneapolis, SL is St Louis Arsenal, but I thought it was shut down after WW2 so the 54 doesn't make sense there... LC is Lake City in Independence MO,

A buddy of my grandfather who trained out there in WW2 told me that the guys would get tired of carrying all the blank ammo for the machine guns and some would just bury it and claim it all got used, you might have found one of those stashes...

That kind of indicates to me that they're reloads, right? The various letters are on rounds right next to each other in the same string. Or did they get made in the various cities and get shipped to one central point where they were mixed and then strung on the belt?

 

[cruiserkev]

Those look a lot like 7.62 mm linked training ammunition for the old M-60 machine gun. Hard to tell from your picture though so I may be wrong. I was in the Marine Corps back in the late 80's and fired off thousands of blanks through the M-60, ours were not crimped but had a small hole in the end plugged with wax or plastic to let the gunpowder escape. Wonder if some lazy Marine decided to ditch his ammo instead of humping it back to Pendleton? I remember those belts were heavy and awkward to carry, our sergeant would make us pack 400 to 500 rounds each plus all of our gear. Good times, Semper Fi!

 

[cudamark]

I can see some red plastic or ? in some of the ends.

 

[huntsman53]

Those old crimp type blanks were sealed with something similar to shellac as I remember, because the crimps were rarely truly air or moisture tight....being in the ground long enough to look like that I'd expect the sealant to have degraded to the point that any powder inside would be fouled completely and the primers as well. The cases used to make those blanks were often ones that didn't meet the specs to be used as live rounds, and as I remember back then they were loaded with cheap black powder, because it creates less cup pressure which ensures less chance of the crimped end fragmenting and causing problems in the gun or actually leaving the muzzle and causing injuries. This is why even with a blank adapter sometimes they won't cycle the gun, or might stovepipe..Not enough pressure to operate the bolt. Also this is why blanks burn much dirtier than regular live rounds and cause so much fouling. Anyone who's ever burned a lot of blank rounds through their rifle can tell you nightmare stories of trying to get all the gunk out. Long story short, so long as you don't hit them with a hammer or toss them in a fire there's nothing much to worry about. It's up to you of course what you do with them, I'd be tempted to clean all the sand off and display them with the story of where they were found. If you don't want to keep them, or are nervous having them around, toss em off a bridge into salt water and they'll completely degrade in a few years and never be anyone's problem again.

I understand what you are saying! However, if you are correct that they are Blanks (Training Rounds) and were loaded with Black Powder, cheap or not, they could still be dangerous. Black Powder can get wet hundreds of times but once dried out, it is almost as volatile and dangerous as the day it was loaded in the round. Likewise, some old Rifle, Pistol and Revolver rounds that stayed sealed preventing water or moisture intrusion, can be just as dangerous and shootable as the day it was produced and this is especially so for Military Spec Ammunition for Training or Live Fire as these rounds are well sealed to meet Military Specs to prevent it from going bad. You never want to go into a war with rounds that are a bunch of duds! Ammunition produced for the U.S. Military Branches today, may not meet the standards that were required during WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam and in the post years but if the O.P.s ammo find was produced in 1954 or even close to that time period, you can bet that it was made to a higher standard and tougher Military Specs.


Frank

 

[Waynos]

Incredible...must have weighed a ton

 

[RJ55]

If said ammo has head stamp of 1954 it is probably 30 caliber ammo / 30 06/ 7.62x 63 used mainly back in the day by a 30 caliber Browning machine gun.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I understand what you are saying! However, if you are correct that they are Blanks (Training Rounds) and were loaded with Black Powder, cheap or not, they could still be dangerous. Black Powder can get wet hundreds of times but once dried out, it is almost as volatile and dangerous as the day it was loaded in the round. Likewise, some old Rifle, Pistol and Revolver rounds that stayed sealed preventing water or moisture intrusion, can be just as dangerous and shootable as the day it was produced and this is especially so for Military Spec Ammunition for Training or Live Fire as these rounds are well sealed to meet Military Specs to prevent it from going bad. You never want to go into a war with rounds that are a bunch of duds! Ammunition produced for the U.S. Military Branches today, may not meet the standards that were required during WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam and in the post years but if the O.P.s ammo find was produced in 1954 or even close to that time period, you can bet that it was made to a higher standard and tougher Military Specs.


Frank

You're absolutely right about live ammo, as it's expected to have a long shelf life. Blanks for training are a whole different animal though, they were expected to be used fairly quickly, and since they are not expected to survive combat conditions they are made to less stringent specs. It's true the powder can last a long time, which Is why I said what I did about hitting them with a hammer, or tossing them in a fire. Ive dug old blanks and found the powder inside had solidified to a solid mass that would no longer ignite easily. Like I said, to each their own.... I would have no fear of them accidentally going off and it wouldn't bother me to have them around, although in reality since space is limited for me too, I'd more than likely dispose of all but a few of the nicer looking linked ones.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I can see some red plastic or ? in some of the ends.

The red you're seeing is the sealant that was put there to keep moisture out, as to there being several different arsenal marks within the same belt, that's fairly common, blanks were shipped in premade belts, and also in boxes loose rounds, The local armorers would use the links from fired belts to make new ones and just grab whatever boxes they had on hand. They used link loaders to make small sections of belt which were them popped together with a rubber mallet..... here's a pic of an old style link loader....

View attachment 1167844

 

[kermit]

Back in the day they gave us belts and belts of that stuff for the M-60 and now M249G. You could always pick out the boots from a mile away because they are the ones firing all the rounds. All the old hats used them to feed the fish. After the boots learn what they do to the inside of the weapon they are firing they figure the game out real quick. The goal was to complete the entire training without firing a single round. If you were required to fire a blank it was because you were ordered to by brass that has never cleaned a weapon after its had blanks ran though it. Great find........The surf zone at Pendleton get real rough sometimes.....I have seen a big wave knock an entire box right out of the boat! LOL ;-)

 

[cudamark]

The red you're seeing is the sealant that was put there to keep moisture out, as to there being several different arsenal marks within the same belt, that's fairly common, blanks were shipped in premade belts, and also in boxes loose rounds, The local armorers would use the links from fired belts to make new ones and just grab whatever boxes they had on hand. They used link loaders to make small sections of belt which were them popped together with a rubber mallet..... here's a pic of an old style link loader....

View attachment 1167844

Sorry, that link doesn't work.

 

[cudamark]

Back in the day they gave us belts and belts of that stuff for the M-60 and now M249G. You could always pick out the boots from a mile away because they are the ones firing all the rounds. All the old hats used them to feed the fish. After the boots learn what they do to the inside of the weapon they are firing they figure the game out real quick. The goal was to complete the entire training without firing a single round. If you were required to fire a blank it was because you were ordered to by brass that has never cleaned a weapon after its had blanks ran though it. Great find........The surf zone at Pendleton get real rough sometimes.....I have seen a big wave knock an entire box right out of the boat! LOL ;-)

That's what I was thinking. The rounds might have been in an ammo box that was washed overboard and floated ashore. The box since rusted away.