Counterfeit 8 reale and a silver face: are these old?

[Rustic]

Began hunting in a new place last night, in the far corner of a big field nearby. It hasn't been planted yet so I wanted to check it out before the farmer got to it... Found the usual tractor bits, a few pulltabs, 3 heavy, old, wrought iron stakes, two musket balls.

Then got a good signal and when I flipped the plug saw this fantastical sight:


I had no idea what it was but I didn't want to rub it, but when I picked it up I said to my sister "The edge of it makes me think pewter", because the edge was corroded and black like an old pewter button.

Got it home and just rinsed it off as best I could-- what a mess, but I can make out Carolus III, and I can just make out 176_ for a date.


I then weighed it and the coin is much too light to be a real reale. But I still love it. But is it an old counterfeit? How do you tell? Which brings me to the silver item I found this afternoon at the same place:


It rang up as 82-84 at the 11.6 frequency on my machine and it was about 6 inches down. When I got it home I tested it with my silver test and it is silver. But I'd just love to know if it's old or modern, and I'm hoping you guys might know what it is and have an idea of its age...

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Without the screw hole in the mouth. How else would it mount on? I'm no expert but without seeing how it attached to the pistol I wouldn't put money on it. Hey IP do you have any other variations of the pistol grotesques?

I'm just making a suggestion because it's the only thing I've ever seen that's similar. I'm sure someone who knows much more about early pistols will be able to confirm or exclude. That said, I have dug a musket escutcheon with two metal prongs that I guess would have been attached by being hammered into the wood... so that would be the only idea I could come up with how it may have been attached.

 

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[Rustic]

Without the screw hole in the mouth. How else would it mount on? I'm no expert but without seeing how it attached to the pistol I wouldn't put money on it. Hey IP do you have any other variations of the pistol grotesques?

I came across a web site as I searched "pistol grotesque" on Google, it's called Little Bay Archaeology Project, Montserrat, West Indies,http://littlebayarchaeology.blogspot.com/2012/04/grotesque-face-motif-grotesque-mask.html and talks about Grotesques and had some great historical info. Here's a photo of one grotesque, Looks like brass


The site has some very interesting info about them, and a couple illustrations looks similar to the one I found, in that there is no screw hole.


But here is a photo of one that shows how it may have been mounted: it looks like there was a blade extending from the grotesque (now broken off on the one I found?) into a suitable hole in the butt of the pistol which allowed the face to be fixed in place with a pin:

 

[Carolina Tom]

Pistol grotesque? WHAT? 8:12AM and I learned something new.

That is exceptionally cool, and what an ID by IP.

The 8R is also sweet. Built by a crook to cheat other people. You just have to love a counterfeiter.

 

[A2coins]

nice find reale or not real

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using TreasureNet.com mobile app

 

[Aureus]

Amazing finds, both of them! Congratulations!

 

[smokeythecat]

Now it DOES look like pewter. Contemporary counterfeits can be worth more than an original. If you THINK it's pewter be careful as it may be fragile. My eyes don't see as well as they used to, and photos, well, never mind.

 

[Patriot Relics]

How fricking sweet is that grotesque! Never seen one on here and man would that look great in the display. Counterfeit silver is a fantastic find as well

 

[Iron Patch]

Now it DOES look like pewter. Contemporary counterfeits can be worth more than an original. If you THINK it's pewter be careful as it may be fragile. My eyes don't see as well as they used to, and photos, well, never mind.

Struck counterfeits can, and often are... not so much for cast. Far less interest.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Now it DOES look like pewter. Contemporary counterfeits can be worth more than an original. If you THINK it's pewter be careful as it may be fragile. My eyes don't see as well as they used to, and photos, well, never mind.

That is a very recent "copy" 8 reale. I have seen them for sale in caribbean tourist spots and have dug one myself. Not pewter, just cast pot-metal with a nickle or some other shiny plating on it.

 

[Z.K.]

Both great finds

The pistol grotesque (and I join the club in having just learned about those through this post) is fantastic.

Oh yeah, nice follow up on the attachment research. Cheers

 

[trapperart]

Congrats on the 2 great finds

 

[CRUSADER]

I think your silver find is a pistol grotesque. Really nice one too.

pistol grotesque - Bing images

The counterfeit coin is period as you point out.

I think it's a strong candidate but that's because we rarely get gun parts & this is something I haven't seen the likes of.
I can tell its well made & cost good money to make & fix to a quality item. It's a cross between a stylized Lion's Head & a mans face, without being either.
It's a very cool find that would display well, & I hope we confirm your thoughts, because I would like to know for sure myself.
We need the size to help though?

 

[gwdigger]

Wow. The old cft is nice but that pistol grotesque is sick. So is its ID from IP.

 

[wagbert]

Learned something from your post today. Old and super cool finds...neat stuff. Congratulations !

 

[Rustic]

The counterfeit coin is period as you point out.

I think it's a strong candidate but that's because we rarely get gun parts & this is something I haven't seen the likes of.
I can tell its well made & cost good money to make & fix to a quality item. It's a cross between a stylized Lion's Head & a mans face, without being either.
It's a very cool find that would display well, & I hope we confirm your thoughts, because I would like to know for sure myself.
We need the size to help though?

Thank you for your thoughts, Cru. Yes, of course, I should have thought to post the size too. It measures roughly 1"on the long axis by 7/8" on the short axis. Here is a pic with a match book for comparison:

I agree it's not quite lion's head, but not quite man, either... it has a broad nose and hairs like a lion, but ears like a man.
I defer to the opinions of the experts like you here; This is the end of my second year detecting and I don't have much knowledge about artifacts yet. I am thankful to have everyone's help id'ing it.

 

[Gridwalker306]

Well I'm impressed. The counterfeit Real is a great find, but that pistol grotesque is quite something. As soon as I saw it I just knew it was going to be special.

I have to agree with Argentium and his mention of the banner, I'm surely voting!

Equally impressive is Iron Patch's ability to ID that thing haha!

 

[Tnmountains]

It should if silver have a hallmark on it. There seems to be people who collect these and several styles that give specific time frames. That sir is your find of the day. I would gently clean and see if it has a hallmark. I bet the gun was highly embelleshed. Very nice butt cap. You can probably trace yours down.

from the ASCAS association newsletter #113

am aware of Pug masks hallmarked from 1748 through 1816
Faun masks hallmarked from 1745-1791
Green Man masks hallmarked from 1767-1780
There are other 'grotesque' buttcaps, and variations of the 'Green Man' type.
The Pug - type mask first appeared c. 1720, and examples, with unclear marks, exist from 1732, or earlier. I believe the Pug is a symbol of support for the Protestant monarchy, following the selection of the Hanoverian George's for the British throne after the death of Queen Anne. The House of Orange, and the Hanoverians, kept pug dogs.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Those are two OUTSTANDING 1700s finds!

-Buck

 

[Rustic]

Thank you for all the information and advice. I gently washed it today to get the dirt off, but I did not find any hallmark that I could see.

I did a bit more research on the Internet and found a photo of a brass grotesque that is somewhat reminiscent of the one I found:

The brass grotesque is from an 18th century flintlock pistol. Notice how it's face is inset into a larger butt cap.

Also, this photo shows how an attachment blade was used to mount the grotesque face:


The informative web page of Jefferson Patterson Park & MuseumJefferson Patterson Park and Museum - State Museum of Archaeology states,

"The butt cap shank measures 1 ½ inches in length, with the face no more than one inch in diameter. It is believed that this is just one piece of the larger butt cap that would have fit on the end of an English or French made flintlock pistol..."

I believe the piece I found would fit into just such a larger setting...

Just want to say thanks again to everyone for your help, and advice, it's unlikely I would have figured out what it was without you. Happy hunting to all

 

[Gimme a Lobsta' bub!]

And I though my old lady looked scary in the morning!

Very nice 18th C. find. They had a lot of style back then!

Eat more Lobsta'