1876 to 1885 hawaiian tags??? solved there dog tags

[grimroofer]

hi i have had these on other areas on here and know one seems to ever have seen them i found then here on maui recently and i am stumped i found them on a 1862 sight along with some nice coins the oldest was a 1776 spanish coin that was a great day but i cant find anything on these tags so any help would be greatly appreciated thanks

[diggummup]

I haven't forgot you. I'still haven't heard any responses from my emails. I'm going to try and contact them again,maybe i'll have better luck this time. For those who want to know here are the other posts concerning these tags. They are intriguing, to me anyways. I still think they have something to do with the sugar plantations of that era.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...tml#msg1976041
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...tml#msg1972950

[grimroofer]

i showed them to some people over here and no luck i think you are right about the plantation tags they are just way different than any that i have seen

[diggummup]

Yeah I know what you mean. With King Kalakaua's Crown and with the "dates" which I guess we can safely assume that is what they are. One thing I noticed is the large gap in the number sequences from 1880-1885 as compared to the small gap between the years of 1876-1880. For what it's worth, I have emailed several history professors at the Univ. Of Hawaii as well as a couple more people at local museums on the islands. I definitely don't think they have anything to do with burials or cremations. They don't correspond with the practices of that era as far as dealing with the dead goes.

[grimroofer]

i noticed the date gape to the museum in wailuku is closed for another month for renovations if they don't have any i might donate these but i still would like to find out some history on them that's half the fun in finding old things but they still need to be preserved thanks again for all the help

[diggummup]

I agree about finding the history of items being half the fun. Even if it wasn't you or I that found the item. That's why i'm still on this one.
I received a reply back from one guy that I emailed yesterday and this is what he has to say-

As an academic historian, I am not necessarily an expert in material artifacts, so I should refer you to someone at the Bishop Museum and/or the Waipahu Plantation Village that has a small collection of bango.

If you want my informal opinion, most bango that I have seen only have one hole at the top and then some sort of plantation name or acronym stamped fairly prominently on the tag as well.

The metals that you found have two holes -- perhaps for nailing the tag to something for identification purposes. They remind me of the tags that you sometimes find on telephone poles in the 20th century or even some large trees in major cities.

Someone on the website you provided suggested that they might have been nailed onto cemetery plot crosses. I would ask someone who knows about cemeteries and maybe he/she could tell you more.

Hope this helps,

J. Rosa

=======================
John P. Rosa
Assistant Professor of History
University of Hawai‘i at Mänoa
rosajohn@hawaii.edu

I agree with him about the bango tags, for reasons he listed as well as the dates on the tags not corresponding to when bango tags were supposedly first used, which was according to my research in 1905 at the Oahu Sugar Co., I cannot find anything to suggest that they were used any earlier than this. I do not agree with him on the issue of the cemetery plot crosses. I can't see them being made for this reason, the crown, the one date and the number doesn't correlate to being attached to a burial marker. Although I do agree about the two holes as being used to affix to something. Are these tags brass? How far apart were they found? We will figure this out!

[grimroofer]

yes they are brass and they were quite apart and at different depths from 1 to 5 inches if they were made to be nailed to something i don't think they ever were there is no indentations from a nail there were no telephone poles around where i found these at that time the crown dose make it more interesting i keep talking to the locals here but it is hard all the oldest people are vary hard to understand most don't speak English to good lol you would think if the numbers were going up from usage over 6000 of these were made they would be more popular well thanks again we will figure this out sooner or later

[diggummup]

Well I received this yesterday from one person I emailed. I'm still not convinced though. They don't look like any dog tag i've ever seen. I have saw examples from hawaii from the early 20th century. But hey, i'm no expert. Anyway here is the email-

From what I have learned, what you found are dog tags. They evidenced payment of a dog license and were fastened to a dog's collar. This answer was provided by Don Medcalf at Hawaiian Islands Stamp & Coin in Honolulu. I included Don in the cc's, so if you need additional information, you can contact Don directly. Don is an expert on Hawaiiana.

Don Metcalf- hisc@aloha.net

[daytondigger]

I agree that they are dog licenses. Maybe you could forward pictures to doglicenseorg@hotmail.com and see what they can tell you. They could be valuable.

[grimroofer]

i think you are right i emailed pics to a dog license collecting sight and this is the response i got

THey are indeed dog licenses. Im not at my books now, but on a laptop. I have 6 territory of hawaii pre 1900 dog licenses that I bought years ago from a digger Yours are quite nice..Keep my posted if you ever intend on selling them to make some cash.

i dont plan on selling them but i do need to mark this as solved but i cant figure out how to do it i still think its funny they dont say dog license or tax on them but i am satisfied thanks for all the help

[diggummup]

i think you are right i emailed pics to a dog license collecting sight and this is the response i got

THey are indeed dog licenses. Im not at my books now, but on a laptop. I have 6 territory of hawaii pre 1900 dog licenses that I bought years ago from a digger Yours are quite nice..Keep my posted if you ever intend on selling them to make some cash.

i dont plan on selling them but i do need to mark this as solved but i cant figure out how to do it i still think its funny they dont say dog license or tax on them but i am satisfied thanks for all the help

I think you can only mark it "solved" with a green check if it is in the "what is it?" section. I guess a dog tag will work, just never seen any like that before. It explains the 2 holes though.

[PBK]

These tags are listed and illustrated on pp. 57-58 of U. S. Dog License Tags and Related Exonumia. Although no values are given, the author, Dr. Bill Bone, can probably help you with that information. He's very familiar with our hobby and enjoys hearing from anyone who has found tags from the 1800's. I'm sure he'd be interested in these from the Kingdom of Hawaii. E-mail him at:

tagman2@earthlink.net

The oldest known Hawaiian tags are dated 1870.

[diggummup]

These tags are listed and illustrated on pp. 57-58 of U. S. Dog License Tags and Related Exonumia. Although no values are given, the author, Dr. Bill Bone, can probably help you with that information. He's very familiar with our hobby and enjoys hearing from anyone who has found tags from the 1800's. I'm sure he'd be interested in these from the Kingdom of Hawaii. E-mail him at:

tagman2@earthlink.net

The oldest known Hawaiian tags are dated 1870.

Thanks PBK! It took a while to get there but we finally nailed it.

[grimroofer]

i am shocked that that is what those are and happy to finely know for sure i will mark it solved in the right category this was a tough one but with all the help now we know so thanks everyone and pbk especially !!!!!

[intimer]

you ought to check ebay 'completed listings'. i have heard rare rare dog tags sell very high. there is brisk competition among the 'many' collectors.

put one on, maybe that you have a duplicate of to test the waters. you might do very well.

[intimer]

i looked on completed listing and there are none similar to yours. the rare ones a few and far between. the common junk is junk! very similar to tokens.

please let us know here if you put them on.

[grimroofer]

sorry i do not plan on selling any of these i am waiting for the museum over here to open back up it is closed for renovations i am making a display right now of all the things that i found there spurs horse shoes a jews harp coins lots of other things and i am donating it i think it should never leave the island i want the people here to see there past i have never sold anything that i found and i would not feel right selling anything from here

[intimer]

not a problem, i sure understand that. a museum tops a collector even in my book.
i was just offering the idea. personally i don't collect dog tags.

your dog tags evidently are a great find. it would be nice if you contacted bill bone and let him list the tags 'for the record'. if he has seen pictures he still needs measurements. new finds should be listed, regardless of their destination, so all the researchers, collectors and others to be able to view.

your's are quite unique. 1800's, with a picture, and i imagine being from hawaii is a plus too.

congratulations on the find, the id and what you're doing with them.

thanks for the chance to see them on t net!

[grimroofer]

i did send him pics of some of them but no measurements i guess i should contact him and see what he needs to document them and i will give him the numbers off all of them thanks for bringing that to my attention so i can do the right thing

[intimer]

when i see others doing 'the right thing' it affects me in a positive way.
here's a story: a person passed away and the wife talks about how generous he was publicly, donating, volunteering, fund raising, tipping...etc. and especially about how appreciative he was of her-all their life together. wow!, it really meant something to me, somehow it has made me grow!

hope this isn't off track. i guess learning, through life from others, shouldn't stop because of age!