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  1. #1
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
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    1667 token found today

    (STAR) JOHN MOORE OF BOSTON / (CROWN) // (STAR) HIS (DOT) HALFE PENNY (DOT) 1667 / (STAR) M (STAR) / I (STAR) S / (STAR) DIME SIZED BRASS, HOLED. NOT DUG. Not shown in Redbook and the Rulau token catalog starts from 1700. Token is about fine if you ignore the hole and was obviously circulated after the hole as worn there. It will take some research to find this one. This was bought by me at an estate auction today. I bought a small box of cull and holed US coins and this was in there. I only paid $10 for the box and it contained about $2 face in junk silver coins and some junk copper and bronze pieces. I don't have the knowledge or equipment to post a photo sorry. siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  2. #2
    us
    Jul 2006
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Garrett Ace 250
    1,287
    17 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    Siegfried: I looked & looked for info on that Token! Nothing! I have an idea that it may be English! The Crown & the fact there is a Boston,
    England!! Do you think? I'll keep looking, tho!

    Joe
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
                          Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy!

  3. #3
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    I didn't know there was a boston, england but I know that there were a lot of people named Moore in Boston, Massachusetts in 1667. Hopefully it will turn out to be US. thanks, ss
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  4. #4
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today - research update

    A search in Wikipedia reveals that Boston was founded in 1630 and could easily have had a tavern by 1667. A search at familysearch.org yielded three men named John Moore who died in Massachusetts within 20 years after the date on this token. Assuming that the descendants of a wealthy innkeeper would be more likely to have traced his ancestry than normal folks the list narrows down to one candidate. His lineage goes back at least four generations from him. Next project will be to research John Moores in England and see if any came from Boston. If not then this token came from Massachusetts. Further research will reveal the location of the tavern in Boston, MA. It won't be rated the earliest US token as there are many known from earlier - most well known being the pine tree shillings. At best I can hope to be the first to discover the token as being from US and not england. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  5. #5
    us
    Jan 2006
    Golden Isles Of Georgia
    Many models over the years, mostly Garretts
    553
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: 1667 token found today

    That period of the 1600s saw many private merchant tokens, and many had the merchant's name with the inscription "HIS HALFE PENNY" or something along those lines, so certainly it matches the private English tokens of that era. However, the reference to Boston is quite interesting. It's not altogether impossible that a few merchants in Boston and other big cities of the colonies produced tokens just as their counterparts in the homeland did.

    Dime sized seems a bit small for a halfpenny token- one would expect a smaller piece like that to be a farthing. Interesting. Some of these were also produced in off shapes like squares or hexagons or even heart-shaped. I am assuming yours is round. Most were; the odd-shaped ones bring a premium.

    Rich Hartzog might be the one to ask, but you will need to find a way to get photos of it.

    http://www.exonumia.com/

    PS- the Spink catalog of English coins lists some of these tokens. I will see if I can dig it out. I don't remember any of that type listed, but I will look. There were dozens if not hundreds of varieties, obviously, since they were privately issued.

    This definitely deserves some further sleuthing, and what you already posted is intriguing, to say the least.



  6. #6
    us
    Jan 2006
    Golden Isles Of Georgia
    Many models over the years, mostly Garretts
    553
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: 1667 token found today

    I didn't see any of the tradesmen's tokens in my 2003 Spink. My old 1992 or '93 Seaby catalog (the predecessor of the current Spink books) listed some. Maybe they're in the '03 Spink but I just missed them, but I didn't see anything about tokens in the index, either. At best, the section in the old Seaby about them was really just a rough outline, anyway. Perhaps Spink dropped it because it was nowhere near complete. I'm sure there are specialized books about these tokens, but I don't have any. My only token reference is Rulau, which, as you mentioned, starts with 1700.

    Good luck in your quest... I would like to see more on this.

    Hmm... I wonder about the 17th century Krause volume... that's a longshot, but I can try it. Surely it wouldn't be in there. Now, which box is my 17th century Krause stored in? That's gonna be a treasure hunt in its own right...

  7. #7
    us
    Jan 2006
    Golden Isles Of Georgia
    Many models over the years, mostly Garretts
    553
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: 1667 token found today

    Aha- there IS a Boston, in England- in Lincolnshire. It figures. And my own ancestor, William Bradford, the Pilgrim governor, came from there. (Same fella who's portrayed on the US Pilgrim commemorative half dollar, if you want a numismatic tie-in). No doubt some of our British members will snicker at us poor dumb Yanks who were unaware of the namesake of one of our first cities, but hey- I've spent my entire life on this side of the pond.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,...enth_centuries

    So it is probably English. I would imagine it is from Lincolnshire rather than Massachusetts, but you never know. While I've never heard of such tokens in the colonies, it's possible.

  8. #8
    us
    Jan 2006
    Golden Isles Of Georgia
    Many models over the years, mostly Garretts
    553
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: 1667 token found today

    Sorry for the excessive posting on your thread, but I've been doing some searching.

    Here are some tokens of the period, including some from Lincolnshire. No John Moore (which would probably be spelled "IOHN", wouldn't it?), but note how many are holed.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Collection-19-...QQcmdZViewItem

    And here's a 1667 Lincolnshire token, but from Grantham, rather than Boston:

    http://search-completed.ebay.co.uk/s...&fsop=1&fsoo=2

    I found a Deacon John Moore, born ca. 1600 and died 18 September 1677, among the Massachusetts Bay first settlers (he came in 1630), but he was a farmer and there was a note that he ended up in Connecticut. Another John Moore on the same list died in 1644, so he's out. Trouble is, it was probably a very common name.

    http://www.winthropsociety.org/settlers/m-data.htm

    If your piece turns out to be a common Lincolnshire rather than a rare Massachusetts piece, I would be willing to buy it for my Holey Coin Vest, if it isn't corroded or ugly. If it can be proven to be from Boston, MA, you might be in the money, and I wouldn't be able to afford it!

  9. #9
    Charter Member

    May 2005
    6,380
    201 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    The following listing appears on page 93 of Seventeenth Century Tokens of the British Isles and Their Values (1986) by Michael Dickinson:

    LINCOLNSHIRE

    Boston

    IOHN MOORE (S) 1/2 1667 Crown


    Note: "S" is the initial of spouse. "1/2" denotes halfpenny

    No value is stated; however, Dickinson notes a, "Minimum price for unvalued tokens: £60." Prices are for tokens in Fine condition (a higher condition grade in British numismatics than in the U.S.).


  10. #10
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    A closer look shows that it probably should be IOHN instead of John. Looks like PBK has it but will continue looking. Not the first time I've proven a catalog to be wrong. 60 pounds would be over a hundred bucks so a darn good find regardless. thanks PBK. I'm sending you a pm lordmarcovan. Maybe we can do some trading. thanks all, siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  11. #11
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today - research finished

    I have been to the familysearch.org website of genealogical records maintained by the morman church. After wading through almost 400 John Moores who died in England I have learned that 41 of them died between 1667 and 1700. After reading the records of all 41 not one was born or died in boston or lincolnshire. Of those that died in an unstated place not one was born in lincolnshire. For that reason I am now convinced that this token is from Boston, Massachusetts and I will be showing my evidence to author / cataloger Russell Rulau for review. One final bit of research will determine the population of Boston, Massachusetts and Boston, Lincolnshire in the year 1667. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  12. #12

    Oct 2004
    Oxford,Alabama
    694
    2 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    How about a photo of this token?
    CZ-5
    Oxford,Al
        or
    Lickskillet,Al

  13. #13
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    I don't have the equipment or knowledge to post photos. Sorry. I did send lordmarcovan a xerox copy and a rubbing. when he gets it he has my permission to post it if he wants to. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  14. #14
    us
    Jan 2006
    Golden Isles Of Georgia
    Many models over the years, mostly Garretts
    553
    29 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: 1667 token found today

    Yoiks. I wonder if I can find that copy you sent, and if by the time I scan it, any of the image would be discernable.

    If I find it, I'll try to scan it.

  15. #15
    Charter Member

    Mar 2003
    Indiana
    All types of BFOs owned. Especially want White's Arrow; White's Oremaster; Exanimo Spartan Little Monster; Garrett contract Little Monster.
    1,584
    53 times

    Re: 1667 token found today

    both were very poor quality - not deliberately poor just made poor by my equipment. good luck, ss
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

 

 

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