Louisville, KY Detecting Ban

[Mark S.]

Many are probably not aware that the parks in Louisville, KY have been closed to detecting. Someone has interpreted (twisted) the state antiquities statute that metal detecting is an "archaeological dig" and therefore requires an archaeological permit.

Here is the email I received:

If you are interested in helping us or supporting us in Louisville, Ky My email address is [email protected]
We have been banned from metal detecting in all 122 city and county parks under the guise of the State Antiquities Statute According to our Metro Parks Dept as of two days ago. We have turned this matter over to our two state representatives Jenkins and Clark to assist us. The answer from the Frankfort office (Mr. Masters) the statute was interpreted as the use of metal detecting in a park is an Archeological dig by excavation. Requiring a state permit in city parks. I hope this info doesn’t get filtered into your city. Yours in Christ, Eddie Black My phone number is 1-502-448-7665 I am not asking for money only a call to your State representative to legislate a clear rule about hobby metal detecting differing from The Archeological Statute which is affecting us here in Louisville. Call or write if you would need more info sent to your club. We are the BGrelicrecovery club here in Louisville Please help in any way you can. At least write and let us know if you received this email


What it says is that a permit is required to dig an archaeological site on public property. I have a feeling that the Kentucky Heritage Council is ultimately behind this one. The same crew that is responsible for the KY permit bill. Also the same ones who sent out a threatening letter to teachers telling them that they are breaking the law if they dig on school property while teaching archaeology. Even went on to tell the teachers that they are not qualified to teach about archaeology! Not just an outright lie but an insult as well.


Mark S.
FMDAC Alliance Liaison

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tom_in_CA]

Mark, hard to believe this is still going on over there. They are clearly still mis-interpretting their own laws. The key phrase is "archaeological site". The entire state of Kentucky's public lands are not an "archeological site". Only sites that have been deemed such, get that designation.

Check out this thread, and you will see how I showed them from their own laws, clear trail of logic and precedents, that not all schools, parks, etc... are an "archaeological site".

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,136232.0.html

For example, their law says that if you were to (accidentally) find something of archaeological merit, you would alert the proper authorities. Then the decision would be made whether or not this is an archaeologically sensitive site. But WAIT A MINUTE! This just PRE-SUPPOSES that some sites ARE archaeological sites, and others AREN'T. The mere fact that a site may or may not become one, pre-supposes they weren't "sensitive" before that. Doh!

Read through this link. Someone really ought to take those couple of archies to task for their deliberate mis-interpretation of this. If I were in your state, I'd question and try to tear down their credentials, for their deliberate mis-interpretation. I say "deliberate", because I did correspond with them via email, showing them their own quotations (advising teachers they couldn't even do a mock dig illustration in a school yard, for example), and then comparing that to what the law actually says. They gave me no good answer, then proceeded to ignore further attempts to communicate! They have been informed, so it's not just a question of "oh, we didn't know"

But then I was advised by Kentucky hunters, who followed this, that I should drop any such rabble-rousing, lest it only back-fire and make archies even more ardent. Ie.: "you can't win, so stop making things worse by only drawing attention to the hobby", etc.... So I did! Now I guess these guys .... if no one stands in their way, get away with it?

Guys!! This isn't a case of "let's fight this and get it turned around" or whatever. This is a case of "they are WRONG from the get-go, and mis-intrepretting laws from the start". For example: If you drive 30 mph on a street that has a speed limit sign which says "30 mph", and someone stops you and tells you that you're breaking the law, because the speed limit is 25. What do you tell them? Do you try to "get a law made that allows you to go 30"?, or do you merely point out to the moron that the speed limit is ALREADY 30?

Fight the right thing!

 

[Goodyguy]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

You may be interested and concerned that the city of Louisville, KY Metro Parks Dept. has established a policy banning metal detecting in all 122 public parks. This move will will severely hamper tourism by metal detecting enthusiasts and any attempts for selling metal detectors to detecting hobbyists here in our city.

Our Mayor's name is Jerry Abramson and his email is:
http://www.louisvilleky.gov/Mayor/contactusmayor.htm

His contact number is (502)-574-2003

Even if you are not from Kentucky please add your voice to our attempt to have this policy reversed. Let him know that because of that policy you will take your tourism dollars to a more recreation friendlier town.

Guess we will see if anyone cares enough about our hobby to even try to save it for future generations.

Remember your town could be next so lets try and stop it here first.

Thanks,
Buddy~

 

[sonny61]

Email sent to the mayor. Hope it helps

 

[Goodyguy]

Email sent to the mayor. Hope it helps

Thanks Sonny! If nothing else the Mayor will know that people from all over are concerned about their hobby being unfairly banned based on a poor decision made by the parks department. And the negative reflection it makes on his leadership as Mayor.

Buddy~

Also
Please sign this petition to repeal the unfair banning of the responsible use of metal detectors in Louisville Metro Parks !

http://www.petitiononline.com/louban/

 

[Mark S.]

Here is an updated email for the mayor. This is a direct line.


[email protected]

 

[Goodyguy]

Dear Mayor Abramson,

We received John Hamiiltons correspondence regarding his interpretation of why the hobby of recreational metal detecting should be banned from all Louisville city parks. You are being misguided and quite frankly he is casting a shadow on your otherwise brilliant administration. Please see our response, in red, to each of his concerns. There are some facts that your administration needs to know and being a man of good judgment, you will certainly want to reconsider meeting with representatives from our hobby.


John Hamilton wrote: Below are the points which we have communicated to the Office of the Mayor to explain the policy:

It’s our mission to preserve publicly owned resources, including park grounds and antiquities, for the use and enjoyment of future generations.

To monitor and ensure that all metal detecting hobbyists were not conducting their activity in a way that is harmful to that mission would require a level of staffing that we do not have.

Mr. Hamilton is suggesting that our legal recreational hobby of metal detecting on pubic use lands is somehow detrimental to the parks. We are responsible hobbyist and follow a strict code of ethics. We leave our parks in better condition than when we arrived. Sporting activities, dogs, and kids on bikes do much more damage to the lawns than we can ever inflict.

Digging into park turf and excavating artifacts has always been illegal.

Digging up park turf constitutes criminal mischief under Commonwealth of Kentucky law.


As common sense dictates, the law refers to digging. If we were using a shovel and leaving holes open, we should be locked up. But the fact of the matter is, we make a precise plug with a tool designed to retrieve targets. We then replace the plug with NO damage to the turf. Our case was brought to Washington DC back in 1989 when the Army Corps of Engineers met with representatives from our hobby. Below is a brief outline of what they concluded.

The Army Corps of Engineers in 1989 found that they were not fair in sharing the many lands they oversee across America with the metal detecting recreational activity, so they created a nationwide metal detecting policy on designated public use areas of the lands they control, which still exist today without incident.

The Army Corps of Engineers properties contain much more acreage and significantly more historical or archaeological sites than the State & City Parks of KY / Louisville and/or any state’s parks in the country.

On a number of occasions the Army Corps of Engineers in Washington D.C., both Darrell E. Lewis (chief of natural resource division) and George Tabb (chief of recreational division) have made the statement that: the many folks enjoying the activity of metal detecting within the lands that the Corps control, has done a better job of removing surface and buried trash in our parks than their own employees. This includes sharp metal items that could injury the many visitors we see each year.

At present, 38 other states in America allow metal detecting in designated areas within their State & City Parks.

It is illegal to excavate and remove any object of antiquity from any public land in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, under state law.


Perhaps Mr. Hamilton is unaware of the Federal ARPA Law (Archaeological Protection Act of 1979) Section 3, Item 1 of this Act under "Definitions" where it states any item to be considered a significant artifact has to be at least 100 years of age. And in Section 12 Item (b) under "Savings Provisions" it states "any rock, coin, bullet and mineral" is exempt from being considered an artifact of significance by this Act.


Anyone that has taken the time to look into the recreational hobby of metal detecting understands that 99% of the "good targets" that we find are coins.


We did not previously prohibit the operation of metal detectors, even though the likely intent of operating a metal detector is to dig and extract an artifact, in violation of the law.


Once again, this sort of statement is not even applicable to our hobby and was addressed above.


However, operation of metal detectors is currently prohibited in state parks and national parks.

Growing interest in this activity has increased our concern about impacts to parks and to historic objects.


Does the Louisville parks department see something that the US Army Corps of Engineers does not? Again, we have addressed this on a federal level and I am sure your administration would not want to stick their head in the sand on such an important issue.


We have recently adopted a policy prohibiting metal detecting in parks, by authority of the Director of Parks, to bring us into compliance with the antiquity statute.


The Antiquities Code is very clear regarding what can and cannot be done under the statutes. Basically, the Antiquities Code cannot be used to prohibit any activity on any State, County or other State Subdivision Lands UNLESS a Landmark Designation has been made by the State Historical Commission. An ill informed statement that metal detecting is prohibited under the Antiquities Code is simply incorrect.


We are also drafting an ordinance that would give Metro Police the authority to enforce this policy. This will require Metro Council action.

Mr. Mayor, the bottom line is your administration is making knee-jerk decisions by not fully understanding the recreational hobby of metal detecting. We consider the actions by your administration to be discriminatory against us as a group and against senior citizens which make up a good percentage of the metal detecting community. May I suggest that you have someone in your administration perform due diligence so we can fairly come to an arrangement between your Parks department and the metal detecting community.

 

[GooniePirate]

Anything new on this? Any Developments?

 

[Goodyguy]

Ok here is the situation.... It is still against park policy to metal detect in Louisville's 122 city parks.

However,

There has been a bill submitted to the KY legislature to permit metal detecting in the state parks. It was submitted by Senator Seum after a meeting with metal detectorists from around Kentucky.

WE NEED EVERYONES HELP!
Contact the senators and voice your support. You can also let them know that you plan your vacations around metal detecting and you may avoid KY if the bill fails.

Emails are great but phone calls are even better.

Here is the senates contact page

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/senate/senmembers.htm



Here is a link to the bill on the website

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/10RS/SB6.htm


And here is the bill – SB6


AN ACT relating to metal detectors in state parks.
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Kentucky:



SECTION 1. A NEW SECTION OF KRS CHAPTER 148 IS CREATED TO READ AS
FOLLOWS:
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Metal detector" means any device that senses the presence of
metals; and
(b) "Unimproved area" means any area that has not been changed through artificial means, but does not include a sand beach used for swimming.
(2) A person may not use a metal detector in unimproved areas of a
state park.
Section 2. KRS 148.991 is amended to read as follows:
(1) Any person who violates subsection (2) of KRS 148.051 shall be
fined not less than ten dollars ($10) nor more than one hundred dollars
($100), or imprisoned in jail for not less than one (1) day nor more than ten (10) days or both.
(2) Any person who violates KRS 148.029 or Section 1 of this Act shall be fined not less than ten dollars ($10) nor more than one hundred dollars ($100).
(3) Whoever violates, fails, neglects or refuses to obey any provision of KRS 148.610 to 148.780, or regulation, or order of the commissioner may be compelled to comply with or obey the same by injunction, mandamus, or other appropriate remedy; and provided, further, that whoever violates, fails, neglects, or refuses to obey any provision of KRS 148.610 to 148.780, or regulation, or order of the commissioner shall be punished by a fine of not more than fifty dollars ($50) for each day of such violation.
(4) Any person who violates any provision of KRS 148.290 shall be
fined not less than ten dollars ($10) nor more than one hundred dollars ($100).
(5) Any person who violates KRS 148.290(3), (4), or (5) governing golf cart-type vehicles, all-terrain vehicles, and horse trailers, including administrative regulations promulgated pursuant to that statute, forfeits the rights and privileges, as granted by the commission, of using the vehicle or trailer on State Horse Park property. The executive director of the State Horse Park shall ensure that vehicles or trailers in violation are impounded to the nearest licensed tow company. The owner or operator of such a vehicle or trailer shall pay any and all expenses related to the
vehicle's or trailer's towing and impoundment

IF this bill passes the Senate it goes to the House.....If it passes the House then we will use it as leverage to get back into city parks as the City has cited State law as their reason to ban detecting in City parks in the first place, which will no longer be a valid excuse if the bill passes.

GG~

 

[GooniePirate]

Thanks for the reply, GoodGuy
Just another example of some people taking away the freedoms of others.
After reading on the subject and reading the proposed law, the restrictions seem unfounded. So typical of our ahem "society" today. Someone causes a problem so the lawgivers take some freedom away from absolutely everyone. This shows laziness to a terrible degree.
Don't actually address the the exact problem, just throw a blanket law over it.

 

[dirtyJohn]

If you are convinced that the laws are being misinterpreted and your officials aren't responding to your concerns then you will have to challenge the law yourself. In order to bring a challenge to this law, you'll have to have a legal standing. By being arrested or fined for MDing you will have legal standing to file suit. It's up to you. Good Luck.
HH
John

 

[Tom_in_CA]

dirty john, I suspect that ......... to actually "get arrested" there in KY, you'd have to be nosing around under a few top archies noses, on some type of sacred ground. Ie.: right there on the university lawns, right outside their window.

Becuase truth be known, I bet no one, besides these few ivory tower archies, really cares to interpret these things to this degree.

For example: Here in CA, if we/I reeaaallllly looked into the state park's laws, long enough and hard enough, we might find something that .... with enough morphing ...... could be applied to detecting state beaches. However, reality is, that no one cares. Detecting state beaches has simply gone on since the invention of detectors on our beaches, and no one cares. So you tell me: why would we "challenge this law"?

So the same is true of KY, in-my-humble-opinion. Even though something is said (perhaps to address someone's permission seeking?), the reality is, unless you are being a nuisance, or running into a few desk-bound barney-fifes in state capitol offices, you're ok. Why would anyone of us want to change this? Why "challenge" this? Why not leave good enough alone, and NOT ask for more "clarifications"?

I don't get it.

 

[dirtyJohn]

dirty john, I suspect that ......... to actually "get arrested" there in KY, you'd have to be nosing around under a few top archies noses, on some type of sacred ground. Ie.: right there on the university lawns, right outside their window.

Becuase truth be known, I bet no one, besides these few ivory tower archies, really cares to interpret these things to this degree.

For example: Here in CA, if we/I reeaaallllly looked into the state park's laws, long enough and hard enough, we might find something that .... with enough morphing ...... could be applied to detecting state beaches. However, reality is, that no one cares. Detecting state beaches has simply gone on since the invention of detectors on our beaches, and no one cares. So you tell me: why would be "challenge this law"?

So the same is true of KY, in-my-humble-opinion. Even though something is said (perhaps to address someone's permission seeking?), the reality is, unless you are being a nuisance, or running into a few desk-bound barney-fifes in state capitol offices, you're ok. Why would anyone of us want to change this? Why "challenge" this? Why not leave good enough alone, and NOT ask for more "clarifications"?

I don't get it.

I get what you're saying and in most states like mine that would be the attitude I would take....but it sounds like they're really cracking down on the Kentucky Thers. From the sound of it they are putting a real effort into banning it all together so if you want to MD there it sounds like you're going to have to challenge the law or at least the current interpretation of it. The Archies need to know what "Intent of the Law" means.
HH
John

 

[Tom_in_CA]

John, please provide the sources of people getting "roughed up" in Kentucky. Ie.: the examples of them "cracking down on it" or the "real effort at banning it".

I suspect that anything you can provide, will be either the bruhaha published by the few archies themselves (who will make it sound like it's a big deal, big offense, applies down to city levels, etc...). To me this is not "proof" of some "crackdown" or effort to ban it, on the actual real world reality. It does not show anyone getting booted or arrested, etc....

I suspect that any ripples you can provide, will merely be results of people (good intentioned md'rs "just trying to be safe") inquiring for sanctions, permissions, and clarifications. Well duh, what do you expect some higher-up-state-capitol archie to say? I mean, that'd be like asking the PETA president: "Is it ok if I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a slurpee?". They screeeamm "Nooo! you can be arrested, your car will be confiscated, you will be fined" etc...

If I am wrong, and KY hunters are getting arrested for hunting innocuous city sandboxes, please correct me with the story links.

 

[dirtyJohn]

John, please provide the sources of people getting "roughed up" in Kentucky. Ie.: the examples of them "cracking down on it" or the "real effort at banning it".

I suspect that anything you can provide, will be either the bruhaha published by the few archies themselves (who will make it sound like it's a big deal, big offense, applies down to city levels, etc...). To me this is not "proof" of some "crackdown" or effort to ban it, on the actual real world reality. It does not show anyone getting booted or arrested, etc....

I suspect that any ripples you can provide, will merely be results of people (good intentioned md'rs "just trying to be safe") inquiring for sanctions, permissions, and clarifications. Well duh, what do you expect some higher-up-state-capitol archie to say? I mean, that'd be like asking the PETA president: "Is it ok if I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a slurpee?". They screeeamm "Nooo! you can be arrested, your car will be confiscated, you will be fined" etc...

If I am wrong, and KY hunters are getting arrested for hunting innocuous city sandboxes, please correct me with the story links.

Well, you start off miss-quoting me. "Roughed up" are your words not mine. Then you want me to provide a link that you've already decided to dismiss before even reading it. I don't have an agenda, so I don't understand yours. Here's just one link http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=23542. You can find more if you look. I don't live in Kentucky and neither do you, but this guy does.
HH
John

 

[Tom_in_CA]

John, your words were: " .... cracking down on the Kentucky Thers " I substituted "roughed up". Sorry if that had the wrong connotation (because, admittedly, it connotes physical contact, etc...).

But in any case, we'll call it "cracking down", as you put it. Ok, problem solved.

Now, I've read the entire link that you provide, and see that it pertains only to the city of Louisville. It is not pertaining to the entire state. Any examples or citations given of people being booted, are from/for the city of Louisville, not other cities in Kentucky. In fact, several people post questions asking SPECIFICALLY if this bruhaha is for the entire state, or is just happening in Louisville. No one seems to answer them. Or the extent that those bureaucrats in Louisville say it pertains to the entire state, yet no examples of "cracking down" are coming from anywhere else.

Thus, it's like I said before: we can all find someone, in any state, if you keep asking far enough up the ladder of chain of command, to tell you "no". For example, I can think of many places here, in CA, that we've detected for 30+ yrs. with no problem. But I'll bet if I kept asking high enough up the chain of command for permission, that I would eventually find someone to tell me "no", and cite cultural heritage laws as their proof.

This has become the unfortunate side effect consequence of this lightening fast age of information on the web, forums, etc... It works like this:

a) A booting like this occurs

b) the authority cites a rule that he's morphed to apply to your activity (cultural heritage bologna).

c) the authority tells you it applies to the whole state (simply because he said so).

d) the hunter slinks away, with his tail between his legs, and complies.

e) the hunter posts his experience on the net.

f) hundreds of hunters read of this, and logically conclude "oh no, we better fight this! all md'ing is going to be outlawed in KY!!

g) others read of this solidarity, so they too start inquiring, way up the chain of command, to "clarify" whether this is so

h) those receiving these inquiries, who perhaps never gave a durn before, or would even have ever given it thought, are compelled to answer your "pressing questions" by repeating the "no".

i) those other bureaucrats who are now being questioned and petitioned send down "memos" to the rank and file in the field to "be on the lookout for this activity" (activity which no one ever gave second notice to before)

j) rangers who are now "appraised" of this, might now see other md'rs, who they previously never noticed or cared about, and now thing "aha! there's one of them", and start booting others.

k) these bootings also now too get posted for millions to see, thus causing more hunters to seek clarifications, permission, etc.... (afterall, you can't be too safe, right?)

You see the vicious circle?