50 year coin restriction?

[Northwoods guy]

Hello- I'm a newbie to your site, so I hope this isn't a repeat. I have been researching the detecting restrictions on federal "Public" lands. I am confused on the classification of 50+ year old coins as relics.

Various national forest websites state that removing coins over 50 (sometimes 100) years old is illlegal.

It doesn't appear to me that the authors of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (http://www.thecre.com/fedlaw/legal13/archprotect.htm) wanted coins included. Toward the end of the text:

" (b) Private collections
Nothing in this chapter applies to, or requires a permit for, the collection for private purposes of any rock, coin, bullet, or mineral which is not an archaeological resource, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated under section 470bb(1) of this title. "

470bb(1):

"470bb. Definitions
As used in this chapter -


(1) The term "archaeological resource" means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this chapter. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age. "

Any attorney out there to interprete that?

But now jump to the US Fish and Wildlife regulations (http://www.fws.gov/policy/614fw5.html):

"5.1 Authorization for Research and Study of Cultural Resources......E. The search for and removal of treasure, treasure trove, and other valuable materials from Service lands is governed by the requirements found in 50 CFR 27.63, 40 U.S.C. 310, and applicable General Services Administration standards on the management of property. Treasure may be defined as any gold or silver in coin, plate, bullion, or other valuable materials found concealed in the earth or in another private place, but not lying on the ground, whose owner is unknown. Also, items considered as treasure need not be buried in the ground, but may be concealed in crevices and other human-made objects. In some cases, such materials may be associated with an archaeological resource or their removal may affect a historic property. "

Notice this reference: (http://www.indiana.edu/~arch/saa/mat...cra_mod03.html), in particular the last line:
"B. Definitions: ARPA defines "archaeological resource" as "any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest" [Sec. 3(1)]. Compromises made during the drafting led to certain exemptions. Artifacts must be at least 100 years old. Paleontological resources are exempted unless found within an archaeological context. Arrowheads found on the ground surface are exempted, while those found beneath the surface are protected. Collection of rocks, coins, bullets, or minerals for private purposes does not require a permit unless they are within an archaeological site. In making these compromises, ARPA was seeking to distinguish casual surface collecting from commercial looting. Still, other general provisions of federal law prohibit removal of surface arrowheads, coins, etc. "

What general provisions might that be? I can't find it. My best guess is that the Fish and Wildlife is broadly interpreting anything in the ground to constitute an "archaelogical site", thereby sweeping up coins in their broad net. I have seen these liberal interpretations used by many government agiencies in other areas. The public is stuck until someone challenges them in court.

Anybody have a better understanding of this?

By the way, I found a definition somewhere in all this that the Resources Protection Act of 1979 defines "public lands" as that controlled by the Feds. At first I thought the law covered all public lands. Apparently this 50 year thing isn't an issue on state, county, local public land, unless local law applies. That seem right? Thanks to all..

[wreckdiver1715]

Even UNESCO defines a relic coin as 100+ yo

Note: this does not indicate any faith in anything UNESCO has to say.

Q

[Mark S.]

This will not help much but will at least clarify what is going on with the 100 year rule.

When this act was going thru congress the FMDAC fought hard against it. We were able, with the whole hobby making their voices heard, to get the exceptions added to the bill. Where the problem comes into play is something to do with enforcement of it. The government agencies can ignore whatever they want with it and make their own rules. Hence the 50 year deal and not allowing any exceptions for any items.

100 years sounds like a lot but in the context of what we find it is a pittance. It was the best we were able to do at the time. In just a few years an older wheat cent will fall outside the 100 year rule and become an "archaeological resource"!

Mark S.
FMDAC Alliance Liaison

[Jeffro]

I have a feeling that this was instituted for one purpose only- so the feds have a way to get at anything of value we dig up IF THEY SO CHOOSE. The letter of the law is one thing, but enforcement is another.

If you have permission from whoever runs the park, national forest, whatever, they aren't going to bother you if you find a couple old Wheats or Indians. They will bother you with this law if you happen across a jar of double eagles and make it known where you found them.

Once again, silence is golden.

[EarthWalker]

I find it odd that there are such concerns by the parks and government about "relics" buried in the the ground for archaelogical value. To me the application of the term historical can only be applied to something that is viewed, seen and held. Whats value is there in artifacts that remain hidden? They serve no one, there is no story nor history that can be conveyed to an area without treasure hunters that can provide proof and even eye opening discoveries.
I can understand diggin in a commercial sense of excavating, but for the average hunter these perspectives are absurd. That would be like banning the sale of all items over 100 years old on something like Ebay.
Being a quiet searcher is the best method in obscure uninformed areas.

[grizzly bare]

Earth,
Excellent post. A lot of us feel the same way.

grizzly bare

[stefen]

There are ways to protect yourself from violating the so called 'Relic Act' and that is to do what I do.

I just set the discrimination level on my MD to 1957 (Thats 50 - 1 year) so I don't inadvertently disturb any relic.

[RatRacer]

Sooo... If I dig up the jar of pennies my 64-year-old dad buried in the yard when he was 12, I'm damaging an Archeological Resource?
Technically, I violated the law yesterday, when I dug up that rusty can lid at the park...

[Golden Raider]

later this year or the beginning of the next i will be forming a lobby group dedicated to protecting the hobby. i will be selling bumper stickers for a 5 dollar donation. i will personally go to congress and represent these very topics. where will it get me? i have no clue but I'm going to do it. while i appreciate the efforts of the non profits such as the FMDAC they have no lobby power under the rules of non profits. they can only spend a portion of their monies on lobbying and thats all they can do. they can however urge their members to lobby. i have a hunch groups like this live to see membership and care little about real lobbying. i have tried to contact the president and secretary several times to no avail. they evidentially are not interested in genuine lobby groups I'm sure it will cut into their piece of the pie. anyone wants info on what i will be doing send me a pm i will answer every one. i will be taking lessons in effective lobbying and registering as a lobby in DC.

[Amona]

Northwoods guy

I assume in the future, not far from now you can see security officer in the beach asking you for any items that you can find with you MD and check the date of every items,...................ridiculous??

Amona

[ferrouser]

Its not what the law said originally, but what it has evolved into. And in many cases the law is defined by how the govt sees it. They may be wrong, but it could cost you a lot of money, or worse to correct things.

[ferrouser]

UNESCO is one of the most corrupted offices in the UN-which sets new records for bribery and corruption every year. The best thing we can do is get the US out of the UN, and the UN out of the US.

[wreckdiver1715]

UNESCO is one of the most corrupted offices in the UN-which sets new records for bribery and corruption every year. The best thing we can do is get the US out of the UN, and the UN out of the US.

Ferrous warrior; Well said my friend, I am in complete agreement. Kick them out of New York, and send them all packing to France.

[Skrimpy]

...instituted for one purpose only...a way to get at anything of value we dig up IF THEY SO CHOOSE.
...They will bother you with this law if you happen across a jar of double eagles and make it known where you found them.

Once again, silence is golden.

Exactly

[Ant]

I think the 50 year rule comes from the 1906 Antiquities Act. Does the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 supersede the 1096 Antiquities Act?

I’ve also heard about the 100 year rule too. I wonder who abides by this when it comes to coins, like gold ones.