Florida County Park Rules (against detecting?)

[godisnum1]

I need to know if anyone knows of any rules that prohibit metal detecting in county parks in the state of Florida... specifically Pinellas County in Saint Petersburg, FL.

I didn't think it was an issue, until another T-Net member just got booted out today from the same park I hunted yesterday and found my first silver coin at.

Anyway, any information or insight would be superb!!

Bran <><

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

While I don't know if there are rules for that particular county's parks, you might be able to just look up the county website, and follow links to get to their parks, and then to a subcategory on "regulations", etc.... Do a key word search on variations of "metal detector" / "detecting" etc... If it is silent on the issue, then I guess there's no rules prohibiting it. And even in the absence of any specific prohibition, I would not consider one person's lone booting, to be indicative of a "new" rule (or new morphing of some other rule) to apply to me. Becuase it could just be ...... an isolated incident, for an isolated reason. And truth be told, it could be just one worker, while every single other worker could care less.

One time, for example, my friend and I got booted by a lady-cop from a city park, in a small town, several hours away from my home town. She really didn't say why, but just had the attitude that we shouldn't be doing it. Perhaps she/they got a call from a busy-body who thought maybe we were harming earthworms? I dunno. Anyhow, we didn't argue, and left. A few months later, it just so happened that I met, and got to know, a hunter in that town. I told him of the encounter, and he was just shocked. He said he routinely detects there, as do others, and no one had ever heard "boo", from anyone. So ......That was 10+ yrs. ago, and I have since gone multiple times (whenever passing through that part of the state) and never again had any problems. This is just one example, of how you can't always take one persons booting, to mean much of anything. It may merely mean: avoid just that one person, or just that park, for awhile.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I hunt county parks all the time. If there isn't a sign posted saying "no metal detecting" I detect.

 

[godisnum1]

While I don't know if there are rules for that particular county's parks, you might be able to just look up the county website, and follow links to get to their parks, and then to a subcategory on "regulations", etc.... Do a key word search on variations of "metal detector" / "detecting" etc... If it is silent on the issue, then I guess there's no rules prohibiting it. And even in the absence of any specific prohibition, I would not consider one person's lone booting, to be indicative of a "new" rule (or new morphing of some other rule) to apply to me. Becuase it could just be ...... an isolated incident, for an isolated reason. And truth be told, it could be just one worker, while every single other worker could care less.

I did search the park website and county website and found nothing earlier this afternoon.
But I did send out an anonymous e-mail asking what the park regulations are for all of the county parks...

I hunt county parks all the time. If there isn't a sign posted saying "no metal detecting" I detect.

Yep, that's usually my rule of thumb... but I had a feeling "something" might come up since the house on the property belonged to a family that were the original settlers in our area. Heh, which is why I've wanted to hunt it for such a long time now!!!

Bran <><

 

[godisnum1]

Well, I've managed to track down the park rules & regulations for Pinellas County parks under the Municipal Code website.

It states this in Sec. 90-5. Preservation of property (e), "No person shall make any search, excavation by tool, equipment, blasting, or other means or agency. Metal detectors are allowed with permission of the county administrator."

SO I decided to contact the County Administrator with this message,

To: Robert S. LaSala, County Administrator

Dear Mr LaSala,

I have sent a previous e-mail through the Pinellas County website, inquiring about the regulations regarding metal detecting in Pinellas County parks.

I have since been able to locate the Rules & Regulations on the Municipal Code website, provided to be by Sally with the Park Management system.

Under the Municipal Code website, specifically Sec. 90-5 (Preservation of property), Sub-Sec. (e), it states, "No person shall make any search, excavation by tool, equipment, blasting, or other means or agency. Metal detectors are allowed with permission of the county administrator."

According to Sec. 90-5 (Preservation of property), Sub-Sec. (e), I would like to formally request your written and oral permission to metal detect in any/all Pinellas County parks. I would be happy to speak with you over the phone or in person in regards to my hobby and the Code of Ethics that I hold to as a detectorist.

I will look forward to your response.

And this was the response I just received from Paul Cozzie, the Culture, Education and Leisure Director.

Dear Brandon:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding metal detecting in Pinellas County Parks. County Administrator Robert La Sala has asked me to respond to your request on his behalf.

Park policy allows for use of metal detectors under specific conditions:

1) Use of metal detectors is allowed, with permission, on Pinellas County beaches between the toe of the dune and the high water mark. Any recovered articles, artifacts, etc. remain property of the park and shall be turned over to park staff.

2) Permission for use of metal detectors in all other Pinellas County parks is prohibited except for purposes of retrieving specific lost articles. Requests may be made in writing to this office, which will be forwarded to the County Administrator with staff’s recommendation for approval or denial.

Please contact me if you have any additional questions or need further information.

Sincerely,

Paul Cozzie
Culture, Education and Leisure Director
Pinellas County
727.582.2502

He didn't state where those rules came from, and they seem to differ from what I've read in the Municipal Codes... so I don't know.

Bran <><

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Well, I've managed to track down the park rules & regulations for Pinellas County parks under the Municipal Code website.

It states this in Sec. 90-5. Preservation of property (e), "No person shall make any search, excavation by tool, equipment, blasting, or other means or agency. Metal detectors are allowed with permission of the county administrator."

SO I decided to contact the County Administrator with this message,

To: Robert S. LaSala, County Administrator

Dear Mr LaSala,

I have sent a previous e-mail through the Pinellas County website, inquiring about the regulations regarding metal detecting in Pinellas County parks.

I have since been able to locate the Rules & Regulations on the Municipal Code website, provided to be by Sally with the Park Management system.

Under the Municipal Code website, specifically Sec. 90-5 (Preservation of property), Sub-Sec. (e), it states, "No person shall make any search, excavation by tool, equipment, blasting, or other means or agency. Metal detectors are allowed with permission of the county administrator."

According to Sec. 90-5 (Preservation of property), Sub-Sec. (e), I would like to formally request your written and oral permission to metal detect in any/all Pinellas County parks. I would be happy to speak with you over the phone or in person in regards to my hobby and the Code of Ethics that I hold to as a detectorist.

I will look forward to your response.

And this was the response I just received from Paul Cozzie, the Culture, Education and Leisure Director.

Dear Brandon:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding metal detecting in Pinellas County Parks. County Administrator Robert La Sala has asked me to respond to your request on his behalf.

Park policy allows for use of metal detectors under specific conditions:

1) Use of metal detectors is allowed, with permission, on Pinellas County beaches between the toe of the dune and the high water mark. Any recovered articles, artifacts, etc. remain property of the park and shall be turned over to park staff.

2) Permission for use of metal detectors in all other Pinellas County parks is prohibited except for purposes of retrieving specific lost articles. Requests may be made in writing to this office, which will be forwarded to the County Administrator with staff’s recommendation for approval or denial.

Please contact me if you have any additional questions or need further information.

Sincerely,

Paul Cozzie
Culture, Education and Leisure Director
Pinellas County
727.582.2502

He didn't state where those rules came from, and they seem to differ from what I've read in the Municipal Codes... so I don't know.

Bran <><

So they say they own everything on the county beaches huh.....What a joke.....I would start delivering all the trash picked up to his office since they own it.....Another example of "Don't ask" if it isn't posted "Do Not Metal Detect" I will hunt....

 

[godisnum1]

I do, if it's not posted... and have yet to have a problem.
Then again, I'm usually out of the way of where everyone else typically is... with my headphones on... and pinpointers that don't make a sound.

And I detected at this specific park where I found my first silver coin ('42 Merc) the other day... but the day after, another T-Net member and his buddy hit the park, and they were both kicked out by the ranger/park management lady.

Anyway, I think I might try to arrange a meeting with County Administrator instead of corresponding by e-mail, and being passed off to some other guy who doesn't know the (complete) laws that govern over metal detecting on a beach.

Bran <><

 

[godisnum1]

So before contacting Mr. LaSala, I tried to send out a message to a few different people trying to see if I could get specific information/permission for detecting... before knowing that Mr. LaSala (County Administrator) was the ONLY one that could give the "ok" to detect in our parks. Here's my not-so-well thought out message,

To Whom It May Concern,

I'm contacting you to inquire what the policies are for metal detecting in Pinellas County parks. It is a hobby of mine that I have had for years now, which I've had a chance to do in many different states and teach others how to enjoy this hobby, as well as adhering to the metal detecting Code of Ethics. I diligently make sure to never leave any visible areas where I have carefully removed an inch or two of soil, approximately 3" x 3" and always restore the area back to how it previously appeared. I also make a point to take any metal trash that I find above ground or below ground (i.e. pull-tabs, bottle caps, nails, pieces of aluminum cans, etc.) that might cause anyone harm and carefully dispose of it at my residence. Hopefully there are some type of guidelines that you have which I can read over and abide by while I enjoy my hobby. I want to be sure to take whatever steps I can to know that I'm following any and all rules in reference to this.

So AFTER already contacting Mr. LaSala and receiving a response from Mr. Cozzie... my message was delayed and received to Mr. LaSala's office again. This message, obviously different than my last. Mr. Cozzie again replied with the same e-mail as before... but this time, he sent it not only to me, but a TON of other park people (which kind of bothered me, like he was trying to prove a point) And keep in mind, I hadn't gotten a chance to reply to his first message yet... because I was just going to not respond and instead schedule a personal meeting with Mr. LaSala himself.

SO, I finally felt I had no choice but to respond to him. But I AM still planning on scheduling a meeting with Mr. LaSala before or after my trip up to Kansas for the CTH3 next week! Here's my response to Mr. Cozzie... let me know if I was respectful enough.

Dear Paul,

I apologize for the double e-mails, as I sent that other e-mail before attempting to contact Mr. LaSala and I inadvertently put my screen name that I use on the metal detecting forums out of habit, instead of my actual name. Again, I apologize for that.

In regards to what you stated, I do have some questions.

The first condition you indicated about detecting on beach areas, I don't believe any laws state this particular condition in full.
I do know that you can only detect from the high tide line to the toe of the dunes, but that's about as specific as the law appears (that I'm aware of)
Even at Fort deSoto, for instance, the rules appear to be the same as any other beach. I have the metal detecting permit for that park as well.
However, there has never been any laws that I'm familiar with that state that you can only detect on the beach "with permission", nor any laws stating that "any recovered articles" remain property of the park (i.e. county) and should be turned over to any staff or workers. I understand the difference between finding something modern, versus finding something that would be considered an artifact, as I worked with the Central Gulf Coast Archaeological Society for 5 years. This seems like you may be sourcing state or federal laws? Unless of course the county has adopted those similar laws; which to the best of my knowledge, I'm not aware of that being the case.

And as for only being able to detect in parks with the purpose of retrieving lost items with permission... again, that appears to be state rules & regulations.

According to the Municipal Code website, it just says that I need permission from the County Administrator to metal detect. It doesn't seem to say anything about what you have said in your e-mails to me.

So for the sake of my understanding, would you please be kind enough to send a copy of the documentation to me for the policies that you were citing?

This would greatly help me understand the park laws concerning my hobby.

Thank you,

Brandon

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Brandon, you want to know the sad fact of all your efforts to clarify things? I'll bet that the very clause you started with " ....... with the permission of county administrator" (that caused you to ask multiple clarification/permission questions) only GOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH, because someone before you (whatever # of years ago) went to park personell seeking to know "can I metal detect?". And then guess what happens? If there were no rule at the time (which there usually wasn't in the old days), they simply "address this pressing issue" by MAKING RULES! Doh! I mean, the mere fact that someone is standing their asking permission, simply means that something is inherently wrong, or damaging, or evil about it, that they had to ask, in the first place! (eg.: would you have "asked" to fly a frisbee?) So with this inference in mind, quite often the answers people would receive is "no", or "inquire at each park you come to" or "only with permission" etc... And how did that all start? Someone asked! And truth be told, probably no one would ever have given the matter thought, or even have noticed them, if they'd just gone.

Proof in Point: Notice, as you yourself say: " .... but this time, he sent it not only to me, but a TON of other park people" Now do you see what's going to happen? Whereas the rank-&-file perhaps would never have bothered you, because perhaps they don't care, and don't know some dusty minutia like this, are now made aware of some "rule", and then guess what's gonna happen, the next time those other park personell see an md'r? They're gonna have this "B.O.L." memo fresh in their mind, and start thinking "aha! there's one of them", and start booting others (to whom they'd have probably never paid mind to before". So your efforts, in effect, essentially get laws/rules WRITTEN (or enforced, or cared about, or morphed to more serious levels, etc....).

I know you find yourself in a catch-22. While what I am saying is the psychological effect of asking desk-bound bureaucrats "can I?" But on the other hand, you can point to something that says you have to ask. Thus you find yourself in a vicious circle. But you've got to ask yourself "how does this cr*p get started?" By persons in the past asking "can I?" when no real rule or prohibition exists (barring being some sort of nuisance, leaving a mess, or whatever).

Your area may be "too late", as all the people before you, and you yourself, have simply made this hobby a big target now. But this should/can hopefully be a lesson for others to not let this crazy vicious circle get going, to begin with.

A thread I made on this topic, which shows a "could be" case of this:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

 

[godisnum1]

Hey, I really appreciate your input... and though I DEFINITELY do agree with you, you have to understand that the ONLY reason I even bothered with contacting them about seeking permission is because the day after I detected the park that I found my first silver coin, another T-Net member and his buddy went detecting in the same park and ended up getting booted out.

So now, I know that if I go there and get kicked out too, it's eventually gonna start ALOT of crap because they're gonna get tired of kicking people out... THEN they'll likely make some stupid rules. And since their "current" rules state that I need the permission of the County Administrator, I'm going to bypass all of these people and go speak with Mr. LaSala himself. And if I get brushed off, I'll keep requesting to have a meeting with him until I get one. Then I'll discuss with him in a polite fashion the history of our area (which I've grown up in, and he hasn't) and tell him about our hobby, and try my best to relieve any misconceptions that he might have. Honestly, this guy might have voluntarily took it upon himself to interject into the situation, hoping to just blow me off with some coy answer... but I'm not having any of it! I pay taxes to live here and enjoy the parks just like anyone else.

And as a sidenote, it's been ALL day and he's not responded back. He's probably busy trying to "find" some rules that don't exist. And when he doesn't, I'm going to suggest that I speak with Mr. LaSala himself, since he likely understands the law system a little better than this guy.

Anyway, thanks again for your input.

It's frustrating, but I'm not going to back down because this is MY hometown.
I'm not going to go to another county or to some beach just because there is a misconception about our hobby.

Bran <><

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I too have been booted by cops or city-personell. The question is: Is it a fluke? Becuase in some of those same places where people get booted, it can actually turn out to be isolated incidents. Ie.: "the answer you get turns out to be on who you ask" type-of-thing. And if you employ the practice of just steering clear of that one person's shift, or steering clear of just that one park (till the incident is forgotten about), is sometimes the best tactic.

To be honest with you, I have gotten to where I just hunt parks at the most odd-ball times, to begin with (ie.: early AM, or after 5pm, or even ...... at dark) JUST to avoid busy-bodies. Is it because I think I'm necessarily doing something illegal? No. It's because I don't want to hear any flack, to begin with.

As I say, you find yourself in a catch-22 now. But if you ask yourself "how did it all start?", it usually starts with someone seeking clarifications and sanctions. And then, as in your case, when AS A RESULT OF THIS rank-&-file personell are made to be aware of some supposed evil on your part, then it really gets implanted in their minds "B.O.L. for this activity"

While I can't say for 100% certain, it's possible that if you guys had just been (or would be in the future) more discreet, perhaps you wouldn't have run into this barney-fife anymore, thereafter. And eventually, people forget things, people move on, retire, etc.....

MD'ing is sort of like nose-picking: If you ask someone "can I pick my nose?" they will tell you "no". But if you just did it discreetly, odds are, no one really cares. It's only when you ask, or seek sanction, that you get "no's" and people start watching you. Because let's face it: just like nose-picking, we're in an odd-hobby. The guy swinging his "geiger-counter" thingy, and evil words like "dig" are just targets waiting to get questioned. But just as in nose-picking, no one really cares, until enough people ask.

 

[godisnum1]

Yeah, I understand. Just can't win for losing, eh?

Oh well. I really do usually just detect... and out of all the parks I've ever hunted, which have been ALOT... I've never personally been kicked out of anywhere or asked to leave any place.

I usually detect back along park lines or back around trees or something similar... away from people... just so I can enjoy my hobby peacefully. I usually never have any problems doing it either. With a good pair of headphones and either my Vibraprobe or now my Sunray, no one ever sees or pays much attention to me while I'm detecting. Well, except for at the beach. But now that I've got a 3-watt headlamp, I'll probably start detecting at night a little more.

Bran <><

 

[George (MN)]

Bran & all, Fort Desoto County Park is a special place to archaeologists. The Fort Desoto batteries were put on the National Register of Historic Places in 1977. Fort Desoto was built in 1898 (Spanish-American War). Egmont Key is a State Park that was occupied during the Civil War. I wonder if one can maybe get permission *in person* at other (non-historical) county parks??

Municipal Code means city code, not county, and a city probably can't dictate to a county. So if the St. Petersburg Municipal Code doesn't prohibit metal detecting, you would usually be free to detect city parks. There may be a few parks owned by the city that prohibit detecting. I saw Maximo (city) Park referred to as a 70 acre archaeological site, so maybe no detecting?

The St. Pete parks site urges using extreme care to avoid damaging the sod. St Pete is involved with a Federal Awards program for conserving/preserving natural & cultural resources. I detected once at a St. Pete waterfront park & people expressed surprise, saying they thought they were county-owned & therefore off limits. Not so! St Pete parks site says which parks they own. I used a screwdriver in the grass. Nobody complained.

The St. Pete parks site mentions Williams Park is 1800s, the waterfront parks were developed starting 1910, & St Pete had 38 city parks in 1942. I'm sure lots more parks old enough for silver. Best wishes and HH, George (MN)

 

[godisnum1]

Thanks for the insight George!!
I was hoping to schedule a meeting with the County Administrator, but I've been far too busy to get around to doing that.
Hopefully I can at some point, though I have a feeling it might be quite fruitless.

Bran <><

 

[dogpound]

I'd still go there...it does say "unless hunting specific lost items".......yea my wife lost her wedding ring and i'm just lookin for it. and heck it could be anywhere so ya better hunt the entire park and that could take years, ya can't help it if ya find a few coins in the process.

 

[godisnum1]

I do wish I could, but the County Administrator said that I would have to get his permission before I would be allowed to detect for any "lost items".

It's lame. I'm not even gonna bother. I'd rather find a historical place that the state doesn't already have on lock-down.

Bran <><

 

[Tom_in_CA]

bran, as I said before, you probably could have just gone, and no one would ever have cared less. Let this be a lesson for others reading this, not to make themselves targets of a "pressing issue that must be addressed". I've seen this happen again and again, where no one cares, till you ask. Once you ask, well guess what: the confused kiosk clerk must find an answer. He gets on the phone, calls city or county desk-bound bureaucrats, who likewise think "hmm, there must be something wrong with this, let's see what I can morph to apply", and PRESTO, you get a "no" because there's a no collecting rule (to keep people from walking off with the swing sets and harvesting flowers, etc...). Or they say "no" because you might dig up the sewer lines that are 6 ft. deep, etc...

And dog-pound: I agree. My dad lost a LOT of boyscout rings when he was a kid, at a LOT of different places. I bet this "alert the county commissioner first before using a detector to look for something you lost" was probably unknown to just about every person in that dept. Until someone took it upon themselves to ask, to the answer gets passed on to all the rank and file, and presto, suddenly everyone starts to care. Come on guys, just be a little more discreet, and odds are no one really ever cared! (till you asked)

 

[godisnum1]

I understand that, and that's how I ALWAYS detect. As long as it's not on private property, I just go detect unless someone says otherwise... which hasn't happened to me so far. I guess I just stay away from people on purpose when I detect, so I don't give anyone the opportunity to say anything.

But as far as that park goes and what happened... that was, for the most part, out of my control. Those two guys that went the day after I did got asked to leave. If I would have went the day after them, I also would likely have been asked to leave. How they were detecting or where is totally unknown to me. All I know is that if they get asked to leave, usually anyone else doing the same will also be asked to leave. And that is the sole reason why I tried to get permission from someone higher. But I've learned my lesson though and will not bother trying to ask for permission for anything but private property from now on. I'm sure I could probably go back there today and no one would likely say anything to me because I would be in the wooded areas or in the orange grove where I found my first silver dime. Like I said, I stay away from where the public normally is.

Bran <><

 

[Slugrusher]

Well a CO I had in the service always stated, "Boys, it's easier to seek forgiveness than ask permission." "Now...let's get moving."

 

[digum smacks]

heres a good one .its like j-walking happens all the time. its illegal.happens right in front of police officers.but because they are not inforcing it.if you point it out to them. you put a bug in their mind and bam inforcement.same here