are school yards private property

[350firefighter]

hey folks,this sunday was metal detecting on play grounds of elementary schools,one women,got on the intercom and said i was tresspassing on private property.schools are out for the summer,not posted.was this a person makin rules or is taxes payers not allowed on tax property

[Tom_in_CA]

No they are not "private property". So in that sense, she had her vocabulary wrong. But while it may be "public property", yet the govt. can set up rules of usage. For example: A library may be "public property", yet they can set opening and closing hours. If you go in through a window at 2am at a closed library, you can be guilty of "trespassing" (yes, on public property). And all sorts of other "rules" for the public good, on public property (ie.: no dogs allowed, no alcohol, no motorized vehicles on the grass, etc...).

So here's what would happen if you challenged her usage of words: While you might successfully show her that it is public property, she could just turn around try to tell you that you're improperly using it (for whatever lame-*ss reason she wants to try to morph to apply to you). And then you just enter into a p*ssing match of whether or not you have really violated any usage rules. It may be entirely true that the school yards are not open to public usage. ie.: students only or whatever. Starting about 25 or 30 yrs. ago, fences started popping up at public schools all over the united states, with signs (that no one pays attention to BTW) stating something like "permission to pass revokable" or "check in at school office" or something like that. But there is usually still an always-propped open turn-style gate, and people still jog the track, play basketball, or whatever. In other words, the sign is there so they can shoo away perverts, or to keep from getting sued if you fall off the swingset and try to sue them (they can say "well you shouldn't have been there", etc...).

Most of the time you can still detect these schools till your heart's content, just as any other type after-school user seems to still do so. But as you know, detecting is an odd-ball hobby, that someone might think is damaging (perhaps she saw you in the middle of a retreival and didn't know you won't leave any traces). You can try to debate her on that point, but you know where that will probably go.

The best bet is to be more discreet, and go at more off-hours, and just avoid her shift in the future.

[srcdco]

Although schools are public property (I have had this argument before, too, with school "employees"), at least in NY state you are required by law to leave immediately if asked by any school "employee". I got that information from our local state senators office after being kicked off a school property on a Sunday afternoon. The guy that kicked me off was the superintendent of the school and kept insisting that it was private property. By the time I was done with him, he was so confused. Then he got mad and reached for his cell phone to call the Police. He told me that he doesn't let anyone use the school property off hours and he lived across the street. I heard about a year later that he had died, but I haven't been back since anyway.

Scott

[350firefighter]

thanks tom and srcdco,for the response,i had an idea,but just like to hear from others,thanks 350firefighter

[fistfulladirt]

Like all other places, it might just be best to get permission first.

[Tom_in_CA]

fist-full, I would digress from this advice to seek permission, where detecting or access is not specifically disallowed. To me, that would seem like saying a person should seek permission to fly a frisbee at a park, or something like that. The problem with seeking permission (as if it was needed in the first place) "just to be safe" (afterall, what harm can it do?) is that you can sometimes get a "no", where no one might have otherwise cared, or given the matter thought (till you asked).

I mean, the mere fact that someone is standing there "asking permission", simply infers that your issue needs some sort of sanction, or is somehow inherently wrong, which caused you to seek their permission, in the first place. With that inference in mind, the "no's" are easily forthcoming. And they can be in places where people have detected for decades, un-bothered. It's the old addage: "sometimes no one cares.......... UNTIL you ask". I've seen this happen before, at public parks.

In fact, it can get worse than this: If that desk-bound bureaucrat you asked your "pressing question" to, sees no prohibitions, they can simply make a rule (or morph something silly to apply to you), to "address your pressing issue". I've seen that happen before, when someone objected "but where is that written??" :P

[fistfulladirt]

fist-full, I would digress from this advice to seek permission, where detecting or access is not specifically disallowed. To me, that would seem like saying a person should seek permission to fly a frisbee at a park, or something like that. The problem with seeking permission (as if it was needed in the first place) "just to be safe" (afterall, what harm can it do?) is that you can sometimes get a "no", where no one might have otherwise cared, or given the matter thought (till you asked).

I mean, the mere fact that someone is standing there "asking permission", simply infers that your issue needs some sort of sanction, or is somehow inherently wrong, which caused you to seek their permission, in the first place. With that inference in mind, the "no's" are easily forthcoming. And they can be in places where people have detected for decades, un-bothered. It's the old addage: "sometimes no one cares.......... UNTIL you ask". I've seen this happen before, at public parks.

In fact, it can get worse than this: If that desk-bound bureaucrat you asked your "pressing question" to, sees no prohibitions, they can simply make a rule (or morph something silly to apply to you), to "address your pressing issue". I've seen that happen before, when someone objected "but where is that written??" :P

Tom, I agree somewhat, but the poor guy got yelled at anyway for tresspassing.
I once called a local parks dept to ask permission to hunt a city park. The parks worker on the other end laughed and said "I can't recall anyone ever calling to ask permission." He did give me the ok without any lecturing about holes, etc. I just felt better. I guess I'd rather seek permission than risk a run-in with the law and legal battles.

[Tom_in_CA]

"but the poor guy got yelled at anyway for tresspassing."

Well perhaps he was being "yelled at", because no public access was allowed at that school. In other words, perhaps detecting is not the issue at all here. Firefighter has not said whether it's one of those schools that has fences up (as has unfortunately happened in this litigical age we live in).

The bottom line is, if a person is afraid of ever getting "yelled at", then perhaps this isn't the hobby for them. Heck, you can get yelled at for simply driving down the road (because someone else perceives you cut them off in traffic, or aren't going fast enough, or whatever).

You say:

"I guess I'd rather seek permission than risk a run-in with the law and legal battles."

There is a lot of implications and issues wrapped up in this statement. Let's look at them individually:

1) If you are doing an activity, which is not specifically disallowed, then I don't see what "run in with the law and legal battles" you would incur. Again, if it is not dis-allowed, how are you in violation of something? And no, I don't consider "destruction" "vandalism" and "damage" type clauses to apply to us. Because if WE know we will leave no trace of our presense, then that's good enough. To think otherwise, is to already have lost the battle. Because if you think you are inherently destructive or damaging, then yes, you are right. Don't go metal detecting anywhere, because you will never ever get permission to "destruct and damage" the park, anywhere in the United States.

2) Your statement implies that by gaining permission to seek such public parks and schools, will keep you free from legal hassles, yelling, etc... I can assure you this is not the case. Yes, perhaps no "legal hassles" from that one desk-bound bureacrat to who told you "go ahead". But from others? Not a chance. There have been countless stories of persons who "got permission" from city hall somewhere, and STILL get the wrath of some rank & file worker in the field. When the md'r cites his permission, the worker gets on the phone, calls to city hall (or the police dept. or to whomever gave the "permission") and gets that "permission" promptly revoked. And you, the dejected md'r, got yelled at. You may say "but at least I won't get arrested, because they .... in the short run ..... gave me permission". To that I say, re-read pt. #1. You will not get "arrested" for something that is not specifically dis-allowed. You'd have to repeatedly ignore warnings (and have failed to show them you're not "destructing") for something like this to happen, in a case where they try to morph something else to apply to you.

3) The whole premise of a statement like this, merely implies, once again, that this hobby is something that needs permission, because it is inherently evil or wrong. I still say that this would be akin to asking permission to stand on your head. Can you do it? Sure! And might a park worker say "I grant you permission to stand on your head?" Sure! And might this keep you safe from someone yelling at you, and legal hassles for standing on your head? Sure! I suppose.

Let's face it: we're in an odd hobby. The "geiger-counter" wielding guy in the park draws stares and curiousity. And true, some folk may have a knee-jerk reaction, if they see you with a lesche or screwdriver, that you are going to be a nuisance, leaving messes. No amount of "permission" is going to allay that. My hunch is, in that city where that park worker laughed at you for even asking, would probably never have even noticed or cared, if he'd just passed you by. But contrastly, there are a lot of people who have tried this, and gotten "no's", where no one ever cared before. Now guess what's going to happen, when that person who fielded such an inquiry, sees other people md'ing in the future? They're going to remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others! I've seen this happen before. Moral of the story? :P

[SamN]

I asked a cop once while driving through a park if I can detect-he got on the radio and asked the dispatcher? She said I can hunt but can't Dig??

[dogpound]

i only ask permission if its a state park or private property, any public park, school, playground, or township parks or property i just check on their board of rules at that site. if metal detecting isn't specificly listed on their "don't do" list then i detect it. i figure if there's an issue with me being there i'm sure i'll find out in the first 1/2 hour or sooner. then i'll just pack up and leave and act like i didn't know any better. figure why draw attention to myself unless its clearly posted