Tom_in_CA
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- Mar 23, 2007
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Hey gang, a fellow on another forum thread had a thread that he feared detecting in his state (PA) d/t legal implications, laws, restrictions, etc.. A few people, including myself, answered him that there are places to detect, and it's not as dire as he was thinking. In my post on his thread, I went a step further, and asked him what he wass he reading, that he's coming away with the conclusion that things are scary, illegal, and so forth. Because the way I read his particular state (PA in the fmdac listing of state-by-state laws), there was actually specific ALLOWANCE of detecting (albeit on sandy beaches or for new stuff, etc...). I mean, gee, you can't argue with specific allowance. That's even better than a simple silence on the subject (no rules for or against either way). So I asked him "what is that you're reading, that's making you think you can't detect, to begin with? He answered me by PM'ing me the following link:
Metal Detecting Laws, What You Should Know.
And he asked me for any insight I could give him, about that. I went ahead and got into full-bore typing mode, and gave it my full perspective. When I was done, I decided I wanted to put my thoughts on that, here on a thread for all of T'net. I will delete his name so that it's anonymous. (Unless he wants to come on to this thread and reveal himself
)
Here goes, cut & pasted here:
thanx for the pm. Let me address that link. Please notice that anything you read there is almost entirely on FEDERAL level. Here's the quote:
"It’s important that you understand that these issues I am talking about are the issues that deal with the State Lands, US Forest Lands, and parks."
As such, therefore, it has NOTHING to do with state, city, county, and private lands. Yes they do draw in "state" to the discussion, throughout the page too, because a lot of states have, by specific incorporation, drawn the some wordings into their own state parks wordings. But again, even then, it would NOT have anything to do with city and county and private lands, even if your state had "dire" sounding wording in their verbage.
And as for those scary stories (the little girl picking up pretty pebbles, and so forth....), I mean, c'mon #####, give me a break! I bet I can also find "scary stories" of a motorist being "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop, FOR NOTHING BUT A TAIL-LIGHT OUT on his car, or for going 56 in a 55 zone, etc.... Can it happen? Sure! Your car impounded, you are arrested, you are read the riot-act, etc... all for a tail light infraction. I'm sure such stories exist somewhere, of over-zealous cops doing that. But seriously now ####, does that stop you from driving? No, of course not. Because you realize they are rogue exceptions & authority run amok.
All those scary stories in that link (the little girl with the pebbles, the guy with the arrowhead, etc...) are all, as you can see, written from the perspective of archaeoligsts. Even to the point that, as you can see, the archies are the one(s) who "...happened to be driving by" and thus, the story unfolds. Well duh, go figure, if you ask an archie, what did you THINK their stories were going to be?
Here's an analogy: You've heard of PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), right? They're an animal rights activist group. If you were to ask the president of PETA the following question:
"Hi. Is it ok if I leave my pet bunny in the car, while I run into the 7-11 to get a slurpee?"
Now what do you think her answer would be? She would shriek: "Noooo! That's animal-bunny cruelty! The bunny could suffocate in the hot car! You can be arrested for animal cruelty, pay fines, and have your car confiscated!!" And, heck, she could probably even cite laws to back up her claims. And even a scary story or two to further prove her point. But what did you expect to come from an animal rights extremist wacko?? So too then, do I put LITTLE stock into what some archies say (and an md'r picks up and subsequently puts into a link like this). Can something happen? Sure! If "what if" fears such as this are going to bother you, then don't even walk down the street, because statistics show, you *might* get hit by a car, and so forth. Of COURSE use a little common sense in where you detect. Of course avoid obvious historic monuments. Avoid high-traffic times and archie conventions, etc....
And also, notice that even after he's found and elaborated on the laws (which, as I say, are almost exclusively federal), he goes on to admit that they don't specify "metal detecting". And they would, by logical conclusion, not affect "new" objects (eg.: less than 50 or 100 yrs. old or whatever). So therefore he does say that as long as you don't "dig" or "find anything old", then technically, there might be nothing forbidding the mere act of using a detector. So long as you didn't violate those other things. Ie.: you're looking for modern coins, or that ring your wife just lost, on top of the ground, etc.... So with that said, let's look at both those items:
a) Age of item: Now, forget for the moment snooping around obvious historic sacred monuments (shiloh, bodie, ghettysburg, indian graveyards, etc....). Just, for the moment, random forests, CCC campgrounds, a lake beach, etc.... You tell me: First off, if someone were EVEN THERE that cared, do you think they really riffle through your apron, and has a calculator, doing the math on ages of coins? I've been at this for 35+ yrs., and have YET to have someone go through my apron seeing if I had found "something old". I mean, seriously now, if you were really worried, put that pre 1962 penny in your "other pocket". Sorry, I have to blunt and frank. Or, heck, put old coins of that age back in the ground if you like!
b) the "digging" thing is not much different than rules of city, county, state, and fed, or ANY public land ANYWHERE. It's also usually put in these terms: altering, defacing, vandalizing, etc... But think about it #### : What do ALL of these terms have in common? They all INHERENTLY and IMPLICITLY refer to the END result, do they not? So if you leave the area w/no trace of your presence, then technically, you have not "altered" "defaced" or "vandalized" anything, now have you? Might someone object to the temporary evil process of extraction, and debate those semantics? SURE! Avoid such lookie-lou busy bodies. I mean, did you plan on wearing neon orange and be waltzing over people's beach blankets?
Detecting is a little like nose-picking: Not illegal, but ....sometimes.... uh .... you just have to be a little discreet. But if this still bothers you, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong hobby. Because such things (if you asked long enough and hard enough, of enough bureaucrats) can be morphed to apply to ALL public land, ANYWHERE. I mean, did you really expect a city or county person to tell you "sure, go ahead, 'dig' in the park". No of course they'll be obliged to say "no". But the *reality* is, that as long as you're not leaving a trace, and not being an eye-sore or a nuisance, ..... you get the picture. I hunt in parks all the time, and have even had gardeners, rangers, cops, etc.... pass me by. Perhaps they didn't even care, (had the common sense to realize I wasn't leaving any mess/holes). But is that to say that if I asked enough lawyers or desk-bound bureaucrats "can I?" that I might not find a "no"? Or COURSE you can always find someone to tell you "no", if you ask long enough and hard enough with the right combination of buzz-words.
But if you really want to play it safe, simply don't hunt federal or state land (unless yours is one of the states with explicit state allowances like PA has ). Simply hunt city and county land, and then I don't see the problem. If you're skittish that your city our county has some "no detectors" rule, you can look up the city and county codes in your area. If you see nothing that says "no metal detectors", then presto, it's not prohibited. Look it up yourself, rather than go asking clerks. Lest you get the "no one cared, TILL you asked" psychology to kick in.
It is links such as those are merely perpetuating and exasperating the very thing that author is against: Restrictions. By posting such a website, he un-intentionally brings about the following effect: Skittish people read such things (maybe not unlike your reaction reading it), and they think "on no, I can be arrested, the sky is falling, I have to go ask permission and grovel at city hall wherever I come to lest I be arrested". And then what happens next, is merely a self-fulfilling vicious loop: City and county persons who are fielding such a question, must pass it back and forth to various city depts (the arborist, the mayor, the city attorney, etc...). And pretty soon, your pressing question is answered with the "safe" answer: "no". But oddly, before that, perhaps the parks or schools there had merely been detected (so long as you weren't a nuisance in some other way), and no one had ever cared before. DO YOU SEE? Then this scary story of "I got a no" gets put in a thread, thus causing more people to do the same thing: go ask wherever they're at, "just to be sure"! These type "run and ask" reactions to links such as this, merely perpetuate and further the very thing the author was/is against. It's a vicious circle. Thus if you have any worries, look it up for yourself. And no, I do not consider verbage about defacing and alterations to apply, unless you intend to leave open scars and holes. And no I will not bend over back-wards to wonder if verbage about harvesting, collecting, taking, and so forth apply. Or lost-&-found laws, etc.... Otherwise, there comes a point, that I've chosen the wrong hobby, if all-such-things bother me.
Metal Detecting Laws, What You Should Know.
And he asked me for any insight I could give him, about that. I went ahead and got into full-bore typing mode, and gave it my full perspective. When I was done, I decided I wanted to put my thoughts on that, here on a thread for all of T'net. I will delete his name so that it's anonymous. (Unless he wants to come on to this thread and reveal himself
)Here goes, cut & pasted here:
thanx for the pm. Let me address that link. Please notice that anything you read there is almost entirely on FEDERAL level. Here's the quote:
"It’s important that you understand that these issues I am talking about are the issues that deal with the State Lands, US Forest Lands, and parks."
As such, therefore, it has NOTHING to do with state, city, county, and private lands. Yes they do draw in "state" to the discussion, throughout the page too, because a lot of states have, by specific incorporation, drawn the some wordings into their own state parks wordings. But again, even then, it would NOT have anything to do with city and county and private lands, even if your state had "dire" sounding wording in their verbage.
And as for those scary stories (the little girl picking up pretty pebbles, and so forth....), I mean, c'mon #####, give me a break! I bet I can also find "scary stories" of a motorist being "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop, FOR NOTHING BUT A TAIL-LIGHT OUT on his car, or for going 56 in a 55 zone, etc.... Can it happen? Sure! Your car impounded, you are arrested, you are read the riot-act, etc... all for a tail light infraction. I'm sure such stories exist somewhere, of over-zealous cops doing that. But seriously now ####, does that stop you from driving? No, of course not. Because you realize they are rogue exceptions & authority run amok.
All those scary stories in that link (the little girl with the pebbles, the guy with the arrowhead, etc...) are all, as you can see, written from the perspective of archaeoligsts. Even to the point that, as you can see, the archies are the one(s) who "...happened to be driving by" and thus, the story unfolds. Well duh, go figure, if you ask an archie, what did you THINK their stories were going to be?
Here's an analogy: You've heard of PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), right? They're an animal rights activist group. If you were to ask the president of PETA the following question:
"Hi. Is it ok if I leave my pet bunny in the car, while I run into the 7-11 to get a slurpee?"
Now what do you think her answer would be? She would shriek: "Noooo! That's animal-bunny cruelty! The bunny could suffocate in the hot car! You can be arrested for animal cruelty, pay fines, and have your car confiscated!!" And, heck, she could probably even cite laws to back up her claims. And even a scary story or two to further prove her point. But what did you expect to come from an animal rights extremist wacko?? So too then, do I put LITTLE stock into what some archies say (and an md'r picks up and subsequently puts into a link like this). Can something happen? Sure! If "what if" fears such as this are going to bother you, then don't even walk down the street, because statistics show, you *might* get hit by a car, and so forth. Of COURSE use a little common sense in where you detect. Of course avoid obvious historic monuments. Avoid high-traffic times and archie conventions, etc....
And also, notice that even after he's found and elaborated on the laws (which, as I say, are almost exclusively federal), he goes on to admit that they don't specify "metal detecting". And they would, by logical conclusion, not affect "new" objects (eg.: less than 50 or 100 yrs. old or whatever). So therefore he does say that as long as you don't "dig" or "find anything old", then technically, there might be nothing forbidding the mere act of using a detector. So long as you didn't violate those other things. Ie.: you're looking for modern coins, or that ring your wife just lost, on top of the ground, etc.... So with that said, let's look at both those items:
a) Age of item: Now, forget for the moment snooping around obvious historic sacred monuments (shiloh, bodie, ghettysburg, indian graveyards, etc....). Just, for the moment, random forests, CCC campgrounds, a lake beach, etc.... You tell me: First off, if someone were EVEN THERE that cared, do you think they really riffle through your apron, and has a calculator, doing the math on ages of coins? I've been at this for 35+ yrs., and have YET to have someone go through my apron seeing if I had found "something old". I mean, seriously now, if you were really worried, put that pre 1962 penny in your "other pocket". Sorry, I have to blunt and frank. Or, heck, put old coins of that age back in the ground if you like!
b) the "digging" thing is not much different than rules of city, county, state, and fed, or ANY public land ANYWHERE. It's also usually put in these terms: altering, defacing, vandalizing, etc... But think about it #### : What do ALL of these terms have in common? They all INHERENTLY and IMPLICITLY refer to the END result, do they not? So if you leave the area w/no trace of your presence, then technically, you have not "altered" "defaced" or "vandalized" anything, now have you? Might someone object to the temporary evil process of extraction, and debate those semantics? SURE! Avoid such lookie-lou busy bodies. I mean, did you plan on wearing neon orange and be waltzing over people's beach blankets?
Detecting is a little like nose-picking: Not illegal, but ....sometimes.... uh .... you just have to be a little discreet. But if this still bothers you, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong hobby. Because such things (if you asked long enough and hard enough, of enough bureaucrats) can be morphed to apply to ALL public land, ANYWHERE. I mean, did you really expect a city or county person to tell you "sure, go ahead, 'dig' in the park". No of course they'll be obliged to say "no". But the *reality* is, that as long as you're not leaving a trace, and not being an eye-sore or a nuisance, ..... you get the picture. I hunt in parks all the time, and have even had gardeners, rangers, cops, etc.... pass me by. Perhaps they didn't even care, (had the common sense to realize I wasn't leaving any mess/holes). But is that to say that if I asked enough lawyers or desk-bound bureaucrats "can I?" that I might not find a "no"? Or COURSE you can always find someone to tell you "no", if you ask long enough and hard enough with the right combination of buzz-words.
But if you really want to play it safe, simply don't hunt federal or state land (unless yours is one of the states with explicit state allowances like PA has ). Simply hunt city and county land, and then I don't see the problem. If you're skittish that your city our county has some "no detectors" rule, you can look up the city and county codes in your area. If you see nothing that says "no metal detectors", then presto, it's not prohibited. Look it up yourself, rather than go asking clerks. Lest you get the "no one cared, TILL you asked" psychology to kick in.
It is links such as those are merely perpetuating and exasperating the very thing that author is against: Restrictions. By posting such a website, he un-intentionally brings about the following effect: Skittish people read such things (maybe not unlike your reaction reading it), and they think "on no, I can be arrested, the sky is falling, I have to go ask permission and grovel at city hall wherever I come to lest I be arrested". And then what happens next, is merely a self-fulfilling vicious loop: City and county persons who are fielding such a question, must pass it back and forth to various city depts (the arborist, the mayor, the city attorney, etc...). And pretty soon, your pressing question is answered with the "safe" answer: "no". But oddly, before that, perhaps the parks or schools there had merely been detected (so long as you weren't a nuisance in some other way), and no one had ever cared before. DO YOU SEE? Then this scary story of "I got a no" gets put in a thread, thus causing more people to do the same thing: go ask wherever they're at, "just to be sure"! These type "run and ask" reactions to links such as this, merely perpetuate and further the very thing the author was/is against. It's a vicious circle. Thus if you have any worries, look it up for yourself. And no, I do not consider verbage about defacing and alterations to apply, unless you intend to leave open scars and holes. And no I will not bend over back-wards to wonder if verbage about harvesting, collecting, taking, and so forth apply. Or lost-&-found laws, etc.... Otherwise, there comes a point, that I've chosen the wrong hobby, if all-such-things bother me.
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