No more metal detecting NC state park beaches!

[Tom_in_CA]

Here is the RCW for Washington State.
WAC 352-32-235: Use of metal detectors in state parks.


WAC 352-32-235
Agency filings affecting this section

Use of metal detectors in state parks.

The use and operation of metal detectors, as well as the removal of small contemporary materials, is permitted within selected state parks as designated by the director or designee, in accordance with all commission direction on land management, and subject to the conditions and limitations specified.

(1) The use of metal detectors is permitted only within specified portions of approved state parks as posted for public reference. Metal detecting may be allowed in an approved campsite occupied by the registered metal detector user and in unoccupied campsites within approved campgrounds.

(2) The use of metal detectors within a state park shall be limited to daylight hours that the park has posted as "open." No use shall be allowed during periods of seasonal or emergency park closure, except where otherwise posted.

(3) Any person wishing to use a metal detector shall so indicate to park personnel at the park where the use is to occur, by complying with the registration process provided for such purpose.

(4) Exceptional uses of metal detectors in state parks may be allowed through the issuance of a special recreation event application, available from the agency.

(5) This section does not apply to commission employees while engaged in the performance of their duties.

(6) Persons operating metal detectors in state parks and state park areas shall:

(a) Observe all laws and regulations.

(b) Never destroy or disturb park facilities, natural features, or historical or archeological resources. No item which is, or appears to be of historical or archaeological significance, may be removed from the site at which it was found. Any such find shall be immediately reported to park personnel, and the area in which the find occurred shall be closed.

(c) Limit digging implements to ice picks, screwdrivers and probes not to exceed two inches in width and sand scoops not to exceed six inches in width and eight inches in length, containing perforations no less than one-half inch in width, to be used only on sand surfaces. Any holes dug shall be limited to six inches maximum depth and shall be immediately refilled and the surface restored to its earlier condition.

(d) Properly dispose of all found or recovered trash and litter.

(e) Conduct themselves with thoughtfulness, courtesy and consideration for others, and not interfere with other recreational activities. An operator shall not allow any emitted metal detector sound audible to other park users.

(7) Any violation of this section is an infraction under chapter 7.84 RCW.

Hey Bronze, that's interesting. Here you have a specific ALLOWANCE (as opposed to there simply being silence on the issue of md'ing, with no mention made either way). And the "allowance" though, is riddled with conditions.

As far as the conditions go, let's disregard the parts about "contemporary items" (ie.: you can only hunt for modern clad), and "cultural heritage" (ie.: alert the archies if you find something old), and so forth. Because, I mean .... really .... does anyone follow you around with a calculator doing the math on the age of each coin you find? And same for the "disturbing the flora and vegetation" type stuff. I mean, sure, so-too is verbage like that everywhere. Of COURSE we're not going to leave holes and be a nuisance.

So that really only leave a person with the final "hoop" there: That you have to alert the ranger upon coming and going. Ie.: "with permission of the on-site person at each individual park", etc.. blah blah. For this "condition", I would point out that .... So too does CA have such a supposed rule, if the FMDAC's state-by-state list is to be believed. That .... yes .... you can hunt state-of-CA parks "with permission from park office". And then the usual "don't disturb archaeological features" song-&-dance, etc....

So we have similar wording in our CA verbage, like your WA verbage, albeit not as detailed. But what's odd is: you can hunt state of CA beaches here, till you're blue-in-the-face, and no one cares. And .... no ... no one asks at "each state beach they come to". And yes, we find old coins occasionally as well (gasp, over 50 yrs. old), like after beach erosion scours down to older sand, etc... SAY IT ISN"T SO!

The reason I bring this all up, is this: One day, back in the early days of the internet of the late 1990s, I was reading T'net. Back then, it wasn't as broken down with multiple sub-menus, geographic and topic specifics, etc.... There was just (as I recall) just a single main page, and you had to browse through a myriad of various titles, to see if any posts interested you to read.

I saw one post, where a title indicated a person was getting ready to come to CA. They anted to know the laws. Naturally, being from CA, the title caught my eye, so I opened it. The person explained that he was about to come to southern CA on a business trip. He was going to be near the beach for several weeks, & he wanted to know if it was worth bringing his detector. And "what are the laws regarding those beaches...?" He listed several beaches he would be close to. And they were all state beaches (since, afterall, the majority of our coastline IS "state" beaches. Not many are city, county, or fed). As I got ready to take a stab at the fellow's question, I noticed that someone ELSE had already posted a reply. So before I posted, I read that reply first. What I read shocked me.

The person answering, had merely gone to the state-by-state's park's dept's responses to such things. You know, like taking the page straight out of RW Doc Grim's book "Treasure Laws of the United States", or to have simply cut & pasted from the FMDAC's state-by-state list, etc.... Not unlike what you, here and now, are posting about WA, for instance. And the answer was riddled with ........ as I say, admonitions that you must alert the ranger upon coming and going. All items of value must be turned in to lost & found (yeah right). You must alert the state archie if you find an old item. And so forth, and so on. Very dire sounding info. Contrast to the answer I had been about to give the guy which was simply: "No restrictions. Come and have a ball. Hunt away wherever you want." Now why would I give such an answer, in-lieu of the info the other person was giving? Because quite frankly, it's true! It's always just been taken for granted, that the beaches are fair game here. Detectors are a common site. After beach storms erode them (and mother nature lays out the goodies), I've seen 12 detectors crammed into tight zones all having a ball. None of this "with permission from each ranger" stuff has ever occured to anyone here. You can hunt right in front of them, and they'll never pay you mind.

So ... why then .... is technical answers like this what you find, when you look things up? BECAUSE YOU ASK. But as you can see .... reality is often a different story.

That scenario of the person getting ready to come to CA, and the "book" answer they received, got me thinking: It really made me wonder just how silly is the rest of it? I mean, if I were getting ready to go to another state, and "looked things up to see if I could metal detect" (as you have done here with your posting of the WA stuff), then how do I *really* know if that's just silly stuff that no one really cares or pays attention to?

And to answer the last question, here's the odd response that will happen next: A person will answer that ..... by asking! In other word, they'll post and cite the same "rules", as if to say ... "no, you can't simply go, because, afterall, it's illegal, or you must jump through these steps, etc...". But do you see the vicious loop?

So it's gotten to where I take little stock in the state-by-state citations offered up, when someone asks on a forum "can I?" Even when supposed (even "scary" sounding) verbage can be cited.

Sorry for the rant.

 

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[jamesbibb]

Consider yourself lucky. State land in VA is strictly off limits to detecting.
I guess there might be a state park with a bullet or 2 in it. Not that every other field in the state doesnt.
They will confiscate your gear and fine you.


What gets me mad is... that you cannot detect the beaches south of oregon inlet. Yet you can drive on them, throw trash around, party hard. Etc
"Land of the free"....
Oh and

"Thus always to Tyrants "

 

[twoauers]

Be care carefull in Tenn also. Here the Rangers have the Authority to conviscate all of your stuff, as well as your finds. Bad way to loose a 500-1000 dollar investment that way!

Jon in Nashville

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Consider yourself lucky. State land in VA is strictly off limits to detecting.
I guess there might be a state park with a bullet or 2 in it. Not that every other field in the state doesnt.
They will confiscate your gear and fine you.


What gets me mad is... that you cannot detect the beaches south of oregon inlet. Yet you can drive on them, throw trash around, party hard. Etc
"Land of the free"....
Oh and

"Thus always to Tyrants "

Jamesbibb, where do you get your information that VA is "strictly off-limits to detecting" ? I'm assuming you meant state-owned/controlled lands? Or did you mean "the entire state" ? But even if you just meant state-owned-lands, where do you get that information?

According to the FMDAC's state-by-state listing: Federation of Metal Detector & Archaeological Clubs Inc. , it's ok with "permission" blah blah. Well gee, that's no different than CA (which has something similar if that chart is to be believed), yet we hunt state beaches here and no one cares less. So ... just curious, where you get your dire sounding information?

Let me guess: you asked a bored deskbound state archie, and they screeched "nnneeeeoooohhhh" ? Good thing you asked him, eh? Or you are referencing others who have done "just that" (gone and asked bored deskbound bureaucrats "can I?"), and are reciting the "because you asked/easy answer" answers they received?

 

[srcdco]

I was talking with a friend that I hadn't seen in awhile and he told me that in one of the Monroe County, NY parks one of his acquaintances was arrested for "digging" in the park. Several years ago, we were given letters from the County Parks department stating that we could metal detect in any Monroe County park. He showed the letter to the judge (after helping the judge to understand exactly what was happening) and the judge's response was that the letter said that metal detecting was allowed, but it didn't say anything about digging. So, he ended up with a $50 fine for digging on public property.

Scott

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I was talking with a friend that I hadn't seen in awhile and he told me that in one of the Monroe County, NY parks one of his acquaintances was arrested for "digging" in the park. Several years ago, we were given letters from the County Parks department stating that we could metal detect in any Monroe County park. He showed the letter to the judge (after helping the judge to understand exactly what was happening) and the judge's response was that the letter said that metal detecting was allowed, but it didn't say anything about digging. So, he ended up with a $50 fine for digging on public property.

Scott

Scott, well .... you know what? if you ask me, that $50 fine was WORTH IT !! Because think about it: rules against defacement, alteration, and "digging" will ... .no doubt .... exist EVERYWHERE, in any public property. I mean, seriously now, did you really think you were going to say to some park, school, or beach bureaucrat: "Hi, can I please alter, deface, vandalize and dig in the park (or school, or beach)?" And be sure to show up with a shovel in your hand, "lest they not understand the full implication of your question", eh?

If someone is that concerned that .... once in awhile some odd-ball thing like this will happen (ie.: that they are "afraid of digging"), then I have a silly question to ask them: Why the heck did they ever get into metal detecting, in the first place? I mean, did they think the objects were on top of the ground? Or perhaps they should stick to private property with permission.

But the VAST majority of places, things like what you're saying do NOT happen. I've been at this for 35+ yrs. and dug a million holes in parks, schools, and beaches. And I cover my holes. And in that 35+ years have NEVER faced any fines or anything. Sure sometimes you get a scram. So what? You're NEVER going to get some agency to "allow" you to "dig". You HAVE to approach it from the mindset that if you cover your traces, then you haven't alterED, or defacED anything, now have you? Is this a 100% gaurantee that you'll never face grief? NO! But so too are there horror stories of motorists for getting "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop for nothing but a tail-light out! Does that stop us from driving?

Thus if it were me, I'd pay the $50 happily, and go RIGHT back to what I'm doing. I do NOT interpret that as "oh no, detecting is illegal everywhere" type thing. Sometimes this hobby is a little like nose-picking: Ie.: you gotta be a little discreet because of the admitted connoations. If this still bothers someone that not everyone will love them and their chosen hobby, then I repeat: perhaps this isn't the hobby for them.

 

[srcdco]

Scott, well .... you know what? if you ask me, that $50 fine was WORTH IT !! Because think about it: rules against defacement, alteration, and "digging" will ... .no doubt .... exist EVERYWHERE, in any public property. I mean, seriously now, did you really think you were going to say to some park, school, or beach bureaucrat: "Hi, can I please alter, deface, vandalize and dig in the park (or school, or beach)?" And be sure to show up with a shovel in your hand, "lest they not understand the full implication of your question", eh?

If someone is that concerned that .... once in awhile some odd-ball thing like this will happen (ie.: that they are "afraid of digging"), then I have a silly question to ask them: Why the heck did they ever get into metal detecting, in the first place? I mean, did they think the objects were on top of the ground? Or perhaps they should stick to private property with permission.

But the VAST majority of places, things like what you're saying do NOT happen. I've been at this for 35+ yrs. and dug a million holes in parks, schools, and beaches. And I cover my holes. And in that 35+ years have NEVER faced any fines or anything. Sure sometimes you get a scram. So what? You're NEVER going to get some agency to "allow" you to "dig". You HAVE to approach it from the mindset that if you cover your traces, then you haven't alterED, or defacED anything, now have you? Is this a 100% gaurantee that you'll never face grief? NO! But so too are there horror stories of motorists for getting "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop for nothing but a tail-light out! Does that stop us from driving?

Thus if it were me, I'd pay the $50 happily, and go RIGHT back to what I'm doing. I do NOT interpret that as "oh no, detecting is illegal everywhere" type thing. Sometimes this hobby is a little like nose-picking: Ie.: you gotta be a little discreet because of the admitted connoations. If this still bothers someone that not everyone will love them and their chosen hobby, then I repeat: perhaps this isn't the hobby for them.

Tom, I agree with you completely. As a matter of fact, I've detected that same park many times and I've never had a problem. I know that the police have seen me. I know many others have done the same. I figured the original issue was that the officer was new and / or trying to make a name for himself, but was surprised that the judge didn't throw the case out with the letter from the Parks department giving permission. He obviously was looking to save the officer's face by issuing a minimal fine. The only thing now is that everyone around is nervous of being ticketed for detecting where we have permission and have never had a problem in the past. To me, it should never have happened in the first place. It's probably just a matter of "wrong place at the wrong time".

Scott

 

[gigglenub]

I've watched about three shows and couldn't do it any longer. They act like six year olds. Never again

 

[ivan salis]

hum "public land" is now only for the benefeit of the GOVT -- NOT WE "THE PEOPLE" --WHO IS THE PUBLIC THAT OWNS "PUBLIC LAND" IF NOT WE "THE PEOPLE"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

hum "public land" is now only for the benefeit of the GOVT -- NOT WE "THE PEOPLE" --WHO IS THE PUBLIC THAT OWNS "PUBLIC LAND" IF NOT WE "THE PEOPLE"

Well Ivan, *certainly* you would agree that there *should* be rules governing the appropriate usage for "we the people" on the public land. For example: if your hobby was being a nudist, or off-roading, or target-practice with guns, etc.... then even YOU would agree that there needs to be "rules" governing certain practices ........ RIGHT? I mean, you know, like we all agree that certain things should be protected, and that speed limits and laws against murder, rape, etc... are not a bad thing. Right?

Therefore, sure "you the people" are welcome to go enjoy the public land ...... within certain parameters. You can't just go nilly willy hurt and destroy the land, "simply because it's 'your land'"

With that said, metal detecting can be said to be hurtful to the public land. How? Because you (gasp) might find something old, and thus deprive future generations from learning about their past (if some archie were to dig that merc. dime in that exact spot, 1000 yrs. from now). I mean, let's face it: that merc or barber belongs in a MUSEUM, not your personal mantle place collection (you evil person you!!). Or .... heck, .... you might harm the salamanders, earthworms, or flowers when you go to retrieve your target (shame on you).

Now between you and I, we know that that barber or merc will NEVER see the light-of day (no archie will ever dig in the middle of the forest 1000 yrs. from now, in that spot). And we know that we'll harm no turf, bushes, earthworms, etc... (we pack our spots back tidy, and leave no trace or damage, RIGHT?) Therefore, if someone sees it differently (that you might do evil or harm by metal detecting), then my advice is: Stay far away from that person(s). The less they know and think of you, the better. Why swat a hornet's nest? Simply don't be seen by those that dis-like you or your hobby.

Same logic as for driving a car: It's certainly true that *someone* might not like the way you change lanes. They may want to flip you off for what they perceive as a poor lane change. Well what do you do? Do you go out of your way to petition them for "permission to change lanes"? Do you chase them down in an attempt to appease them? NO! You avoid them, avoid their gaze, right? You speed up, or drop back, and try to avoid such people in the future, right? So why oh why oh why do md'rs think it is our obligation to "make the world love us" ? Sometimes you just gotta use a little discretion, and avoid that .0001% that has an issue. Rather than think you need the red carpets rolled out for you wherever you go.

 

[Joe hunter]

Well Ivan, *certainly* you would agree that there *should* be rules governing the appropriate usage for "we the people" on the public land. For example: if your hobby was being a nudist, or off-roading, or target-practice with guns, etc.... then even YOU would agree that there needs to be "rules" governing certain practices ........ RIGHT? I mean, you know, like we all agree that certain things should be protected, and that speed limits and laws against murder, rape, etc... are not a bad thing. Right?

Therefore, sure "you the people" are welcome to go enjoy the public land ...... within certain parameters. You can't just go nilly willy hurt and destroy the land, "simply because it's 'your land'"

With that said, metal detecting can be said to be hurtful to the public land. How? Because you (gasp) might find something old, and thus deprive future generations from learning about their past (if some archie were to dig that merc. dime in that exact spot, 1000 yrs. from now). I mean, let's face it: that merc or barber belongs in a MUSEUM, not your personal mantle place collection (you evil person you!!). Or .... heck, .... you might harm the salamanders, earthworms, or flowers when you go to retrieve your target (shame on you).

Now between you and I, we know that that barber or merc will NEVER see the light-of day (no archie will ever dig in the middle of the forest 1000 yrs. from now, in that spot). And we know that we'll harm no turf, bushes, earthworms, etc... (we pack our spots back tidy, and leave no trace or damage, RIGHT?) Therefore, if someone sees it differently (that you might do evil or harm by metal detecting), then my advice is: Stay far away from that person(s). The less they know and think of you, the better. Why swat a hornet's nest? Simply don't be seen by those that dis-like you or your hobby.

Same logic as for driving a car: It's certainly true that *someone* might not like the way you change lanes. They may want to flip you off for what they perceive as a poor lane change. Well what do you do? Do you go out of your way to petition them for "permission to change lanes"? Do you chase them down in an attempt to appease them? NO! You avoid them, avoid their gaze, right? You speed up, or drop back, and try to avoid such people in the future, right? So why oh why oh why do md'rs think it is our obligation to "make the world love us" ? Sometimes you just gotta use a little discretion, and avoid that .0001% that has an issue. Rather than think you need the red carpets rolled out for you wherever you go.

Well put but I still fly the bird on occasion but I here it's illegal

 

[ivan salis]

there is common sense in your "avoid the A holes" approach --I myself often use it -- but when parks allow baseball ,and football and soccer and all sorts of other "turf wrecking" sports but then single out "no metal detecting" in the park -- I gotta admit I feel "slighted" and "targeted" and "oppressed" .--fair is fair --no me ok --then no them either --all or no at all. not pick and choose which can and which can't.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ivan, you know what the difference is between those "turf-wrecking sports" and md'ing is? If any of those persons, who intended to practice those sports, had gone and asked: "Hi, can I wreck the turf with my cleats in the park please?". What answer do the think the city would have given them? The city would have told them "no you can't". Therefore, next time you lament that dog walkers leave their dog's poop, and cleats tear up the grass, and any-such-things that SEEM more harmful (or equally agregious anyhow) as metal detecting: Ask yourself if any of them went asking permission, or made themselves an object of scrutiny.

 

[cti4sw]

Someone may have touched on this already, but the main thing I never seem to understand about the prohibition of MDing on so-called "historic" property (like battlefields) or government-owned properties (state parks) is that what we dig out of the ground was not known to the general public while it was buried and as long as it remained buried that ignorance of its existence would have continued indefinitely, so where the detriment is to MDing it out and returning it to circulation has mystified me for years. I'm a Navy vet myself, and I still say that so what if someone died there. If they're not buried there, I don't consider it hallowed ground. I have not enshrined the area where my father died, rather, we bought a nice headstone for his grave that serves his memory quite well. Due to sentiment and respect I've made a personal choice to not MD burial grounds and cemeteries.

I do, however, understand the need to not have holes and dead grass all over a place of retrospective inspiration and reflection but those agencies (or the state) that maintain those properties could generate additional revenue by certifying and charging for MD permits. I know I'd buy one for the privilege of hunting state-maintained colonial sites.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Just one thing to remember - on ocean beaches - from high tide mark into the water - is NOT owned by any state or state park or individual.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Someone may have touched on this already, but the main thing I never seem to understand about the prohibition of MDing on so-called "historic" property (like battlefields) or government-owned properties (state parks) is that what we dig out of the ground was not known to the general public while it was buried and as long as it remained buried that ignorance of its existence would have continued indefinitely, so where the detriment is to MDing it out and returning it to circulation has mystified me for years. I'm a Navy vet myself, and I still say that so what if someone died there. If they're not buried there, I don't consider it hallowed ground. I have not enshrined the area where my father died, rather, we bought a nice headstone for his grave that serves his memory quite well. Due to sentiment and respect I've made a personal choice to not MD burial grounds and cemeteries.

I do, however, understand the need to not have holes and dead grass all over a place of retrospective inspiration and reflection but those agencies (or the state) that maintain those properties could generate additional revenue by certifying and charging for MD permits. I know I'd buy one for the privilege of hunting state-maintained colonial sites.

cti4sw, you say:

"what we dig out of the ground was not known to the general public while it was buried and as long as it remained buried that ignorance of its existence would have continued indefinitely, ".

Right. We md'rs would agree on that. Well put. Ok are you ready for the archies answer? Because even though YOU think that inncous wheat penny or barber dime "is going to rot till eternity if left there", ........... how can you "know for sure" ? Perhaps some archaeologist 2000 yrs. from now MIGHT come along at THAT EXACT SPOT and dig a 4x4 pit right in that exact zone. SHAME ON YOU for depriving future generations of knowing about their past. I mean, it's no different than archaeological excavations being done in Egypt right now, for instance. They dig a coin or relic now, that ..... truth-be-told, DOES "tell a story" that we all enjoy (we learn history).

I know you think this is silly (because odds are, no one cares or will ever dig there), but this is their stance! There was an archie lady, for instance, who saw a guy md'ing on an east coast beach (I forget whether state or federal or city, or whatever) . She came over and READ HIM THE RIOT ACT for his disturbing cultural heritage, blah blah blah. The poor md'r was taken off guard, and didn't even know what she was talking about. But eventually, when he realized she was talking about antiquities and such, his gleefully opened up his apron and showed her that he was only finding new stuff! (angling for rings and change). She was taken back by his answer. So .. she re-coiled, .... thought for a moment, and then retorted: Well maybe it's not a artifact NOW, but in 50 + yrs, it WILL be .... to FUTURE generations. Doh!

 

[cudamark]

I've heard those arguments from archies too but they just don't hold water to me. Is is somehow amazing that ancient peoples would use money? Not in my addled but still logical mind. Is a 2000 year old coin found in the ground more valuable than that same one that's been preserved in a museum or collection for the last 2000 years? Again, it makes no sense that it would be. Now relics, maybe, depending on what context is needed to decide historical events, but coins, no way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I've heard those arguments from archies too but they just don't hold water to me..........

Right. Doesn't hold water for me either. Thus, the less archies know about me and my hobby, the better. The less that government archies are tasked with answering questions about metal detecting, the better. Why swat hornet's nests? They're only giving you the "technical" answer, yet are probably, realistically, just going to go back to their offices in some far away city, and never actually be on that beach, or in that park, etc.... Hence, out of site is out of mind. The less they think about md'rs, the better.

 

[Gregmid40]

Be care carefull in Tenn also. Here the Rangers have the Authority to conviscate all of your stuff, as well as your finds. Bad way to loose a 500-1000 dollar investment that way!

Jon in Nashville

Legalized form of theft. Might does not make right. What authorities (park rangers, police, etc.) ought to do is when they catch someone digging and leaving large and/or open holes in state parks is, hold his detector and have him go through a mandatory training course on how to enter and leave a place the way they found it. Also, remind the individual (in a constructive, non-demeaning way) to fill their holes after retrieving their finds. Give the person at least an opportunity for a second chance. If he's learned his lesson and respects the instruction, great! If not, (THEN) permanently confiscate the machine and ban him from ever using another MD in a state park (in that state of course) and be done with it. You would do the same thing when correcting a child. You (would) give him/her a second chance. You WOULD NOT just take away his/her toys to begin with without first giving them a chance to redeem themselves. I know this last comment sounds like a simplification to a problem that adults often bring on themselves, but honestly, some adults just have not been tought how to dig holes the right way. I have a 73year old MD buddy. I have to occasionally remind him to do the three-sided plug routine instead of digging a totally round incision on a lawn that looks like Curly's toupee on the Three Stooges. Out in a field, it's not as critical but one still obviously wants to get as much of the dirt back in the hole as possible so others don't trip and either twist or break an ankle. Uncovered holes are also obviously, needles to say, are not very sightly for that matter. As far as in reference to your Tennessee laws, if you get caught on the Outer Banks state parks in N.C. metal detecting, they will confiscate your MD and your vehicle. Also comes with possible jail time and a hefty fine. Seems overly harsh though.

 

[cudamark]

I guess anything is possible depending on how anal the ranger is, but, has it ever actually happened? We all have heard these types of scare stories before but most are myth instead of fact.