anyone ever had a tresspass on church property or school property after dark?

[stewielouie]

I must agree, when you bring a person into the equation and ask for permission, when to me you should only need to tell them your intentions and not need to actually gain permission, there is going to be a "NO" involved. Whether that be by a zealot, or a maintainance person who just wants some kind of authority, or a secretary that answers the phone or the mail.... and NO is the easy answer. I like to knock on doors at old houses, and I can tell you that if a woman under the age of 70 or so answers the door, forget it. Anyone else answers its time to dig some holes. Its human nature to say no, its just easier.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

stewielouie, there's the story of the fellow who gets an RV motorhome to travel in. They hear that Kmart parking lots, at night (which are a ghost town at night) are a good place to park. So, while travelling on his maiden voyage trip, the fellow pulls into a Kmart parking lot his first night on the road. It's just before closing time. As he does, he sees 2 other motorhomes at the furthest ends of the lot, in the corner, with wheel chocks under their wheels. An obvious sign they are getting ready to park there for the night. So he thinks "aha! it's true, these must be good places to hunder down and park for the night". It's still about 10 min. before the store closes, so he goes inside, and asks the manager: Hi, can I park here for the night? The manager says "no". The RV'r says "but what about those guys over there?" (motioning across the lot to where 2 motorhomes were parked). The manager shrugs his shoulder and says "well .... they didn't ask". Doh!

I had to chuckle when I read that story, because I own a street sweeping business. We used to have lots of shopping centers and malls on our routes (we're in other forms of business now). But back when we did shopping centers, RV's that pulled into the far reaches/corners of shopping centers, were a common site (we're close to an interstate freeway). And most of the actual property managers/owners are not even in our city (they're managed from corporations in other cities or states). And .... there's nothing to stop anyone from coming in and parking, at any hour of the day or night. Oh sure, I suppose there's the "right to pass revokable by owner" type sign, but .... realistically ... no one cares or notices unless you were "setting up permanent camp". I used to feel bad for the folks sleeping, as we'd crank up our equipment (blowers and sweeper) and no doubt wake them up

And personally, as a site vendor, it never bothered me (as long as they weren't throwing their trash down, that we had to clean up). But sure, if an RV had seen me driving me sweeper too and fro through the lot, and presumed I had authority, and had asked me: " Can I park here?", I'd have had to have told them "no". Why? Because .... gee .... if they stayed for a week straight, or let their dog poop all over, etc... and then said "... but the streetsweeper guy said I could park here!?", Then it would be me on the line. So what do you think my easy and safe answer would be?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Many more people in this hobby now than in the 70s and 80s. That is the reason that times have changed--not the FMDAC. Seems like what was once considered to be "no problem" is now much more likely to be viewed as Trespassing. Just the same as what was once a Harmless Curiosity among the public is now more likely to be viewed with Suspicion. My mentor was one of the "good old days" guys. He seldom used to ask back in the early 90s when we started hunting together, and now knowing what I know now, it makes me uncomfortable at times to hunt with him. He still abides by the same rules as when he started detecting back in the 60s, despite the fact that public perception has shifted now.

My point is that if the act of metal detecting without permission on churches, schools, or other "public areas" has now moved from "no problem" to potentially Trespassing in the eyes of the public and/or the Law, then we should perhaps re-evaluate how we approach it now, since the "good old days" are certainly gone. Otherwise, we run the risk of ending up with worse than a warning, like the Original Poster did.

I think the operative phrase here is "in the nighttime." Would the OP have been cited if he was detecting during the day? Probably not. You can bet that law enforcement pays careful scrutiny to anyone who is lurking around a church, school, or any private business after hours.


-Buck

 

[Tom_in_CA]

buck, I want to remind you, that the OP's "offense" was not the lack of asking to metal detect. Nor was the law he broke ANYTHING to do with metal detecting. Read the OP again and see. Here's the law he broke:


"§ 18.2-128. Trespass upon church or school property.

A. Any person who, without the consent of some person authorized to give such consent, goes or enters upon, in the nighttime, the premises or property of any church or upon any school property for any purpose other than to attend a meeting or service held or conducted in such church or school property, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor."

Thus, no, this fellow's plight has no bearing on the numbers of md'rs in the '70s and '80s, verses today. He could have been standing there playing the fiddle, or walking his dog, ........ and been afoul of that law, apparently. Thus this situation to me, does not lend itself to the subject of: "should we go ask at public places with no rules saying you can't?"

And, yes, "things are different now than they were in the '70s and '80s, d/t the increase in hobbyist numbers". Sure. But you have to ask yourself: why is that? What did all those md'rs do, that have come into the ranks since the '70s and '80s? I'll tell you: gone and made themselves a big red "x" in need of scrutiny and attention. In other words, whenever someone poses the "just go, and don't ask" psychology, someone else is sure to come on with examples of how things are now worse, how there are rules popping up, etc... Those type facts, they feel, disprove the old "just go" attitude. But what it's failing to realize, is the VERY REASON you and they can show such stories, rules, etc.... is the very asking (in a lot of cases) that started it.

I know, it's a vicious circle. Because how is someone supposed to know, if they don't ask? hence my answer: look it up for yourself. Don't ask a live person. If there's a specific "no detecting" clause, then fine. If not, well then presto, it's not prohibited.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Thus, no, this fellow's plight has no bearing on the numbers of md'rs in the '70s and '80s, verses today. .

NO, but the fact that someone decided to take action against him, do you really think that would've happened back in the 70s?

If you park your moped on the sidewalk, it might be ok. If everyone parks their moped on the sidewalk, then there's a problem, right?


-Buck

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

".....do you really think that would've happened back in the 70s?"

If that law existed back in the '70s, then I suppose that, yes, it "would have happened".

Then you bring up a very interesting and "telling" point Buck. You say:

"If you park your moped on the sidewalk, it might be ok. If everyone parks their moped on the sidewalk, then there's a problem, right?"

This is a very good analogy, on several fronts. I get your drift entirely. It's a good analogy! I guess you are making the analogy that the persons "parking mopeds" are to be analogous to "md'r hobbyists" right? And whereas one person parking a moped on the sidewalk no one cares or notices, right? But if TWENTY people park their mopeds on the sidewalk, .... then alas, someone in the city thinks "gee, they're blocking the sidewalks so pedestrians can't get by", or "gee, I wonder if those mopeds drip oil, which stain the sidewalk?" etc.... And sure enough, they can probably go into existing city codes, and finds things that "prohibit blocking sidewalks", or say that sidewalks are "only for pedestrians, not motorized vehicles", and so forth. And your example is an excellent one! I am going to borrow it, if you don't mind, for the future when this issue comes up

Because in that example, you and I can both clearly see that "in the '70s", the person got away with parking his moped on the sidewalk EVEN though there might TECHNICALLY have been something that made it illegal. But REALISTICALLY, no one cared back then, because there was only 1 moped, and ...... no one connected the dots for such trivial things, as it wasn't an issue, or *really* blocking anything, and so forth.

Ok, let me take a stab at this illustration: Yes, you're right, anytime one person does something perhaps he's ignored as innocuous and harmless. But sure, if 20 persons do the same thing, in the same baseball field, then someone's going to slow down, look, and think to themselves "gee, what are those guys doing?" and "Is it a club or a demonstration or something? " and "gee, I wonder if that will harm the grass?" and "gee, is that allowed?" etc... Notice that the ONLY thing that psychologically changed in the two scenarios is NOT the activity involved (metal detecting or moped parking). It was the NUMBER of participants, right?

Thus what do we do? We certainly can't tell everyone who got into detecting since 1985, that they are not entitled to continue detecting, right? We certainly can't tell minelab, whites, fisher and garret, to sell only 200 machines each per year, then stop production, right? Then what is the solution?

You will notice that .... if you've ever read my posts (rants) long enough, that I often stress that we keep a low profile, go at low traffic times, avoid lookie-lous, etc... Because while there may not be a *specific* rule, yet someone will come along and morph something to apply, if you and/or I are "eyesores".

Also, notice in the moped example, that even back in 1970, you acknowledge that no one cared if the moped driver parked on the sidewalk, right? BUT WAIT: if that moped driver had gone into city hall, asking permission to park his moped on the sidewalk, then .... he would indeed have gotten some "no's", from certain/various cities, right? I mean, if he asks (and even though it's not going to be 20 mopeds), someone could have sleuthed through some city verbage, and found something that would be interpretted to apply, and told him "no". I mean, sure, realistically, only applied or morphed when someone's doing damage, or being a nuisance, or on a complaint type basis, but that technically, if you asked, could apply.

Thus EVEN TODAY, in places that have no prohibitions, and where "20 md'rs have not gathered", a SINGLE md'r can still find himself "no's", in places that have no such specific rules. There's been many examples of places getting "no's", with only a single md'r. And it wasn't because there were 20 md'rs, it only takes one, to go and ask "can I?"

So while there's nothing we can do to roll back the clock to the 1970s # of hobbyists, yet we can spread the word to folks now, to not LOOK like "20 hobbyists" (ie.: don't go making yourself a big red X at high traffic times waltzing over beach blankets, in need of scrutiny), and Look up the rules for yourself. Don't go asking "can I?". Because just like that singular moped driver in 1970, the only reason he didn't get a "no", is because he didn't ask. The same psychology holds true for the singular md'r, both THEN and NOW.

But yes, this is easier said that done. I realize it's almost practically impossible to "be invisible". Much easier to "be invisible" back in the 1970s, when there were so much fewer of us, that we were indeed thought of as harmless, innocent, etc.... (simply on the basis that it wasn't a common site). So there are some aspects of your illustration that do indeed hold truths that are a problem, simply by their very nature. But there are other sides of your illustration, that CAN be brought in under control, if some of us would use a bit of common sense.

 

[FloridaHunter]

I am sorry if I sounded harsh. I may have misinterpreted your post and it sounds like you did not know churches were private property. It can be tricky, especially at night. People do not know the good we do. We often discover and preserve history before the bulldozers get it!!!! Good luck.

 

[stewielouie]

Geeze, the more I read of this the more I want to stab myself in the eyes with a ice pick

 

[jimzilla]

Tom has a good point. Back in the early 80s, MDing was considered an innocent hobby and no one cared what we did. It was sometime in the mid 80s if I recall that many people were being arrested for "night-hawking" at protected sites. This started the fire on us having the reputation of being pirates. Then in the late 80s-early 90s came, lawsuits started popping up everywhere for all sorts of things thus many people started to become more protective of themselves and even governments followed suit. As long as people in this hobby continue to sell artifacts they find, I cant see our image changing. The general public views us as looters and archaeologists as scientists. You dont see archies selling their finds on Ebay. If they do, they dont advertise that they are archies. In my opinion, asking for permission will most of the time get you a "no" on public property. No one wants to put themselves in harms way. I work for a municipality and even being asked to speak to the local news station will usually get a "no" from many city workers.

 

[Terry Soloman]

I think (and this is my opinion - not fact) that this is really very simple. There are morons in every hobby, sport, or endeavor that really don’t give a rat’s tail about right or wrong – just getting theirs. The OP should have known better than to trespass and simply got what he deserved. He brought dishonor on all of us, and anyone willing to give him quarter is as ignorant as he was in this circumstance.

He made a decision, got caught, and then multiplied his mistake by posting it here. I think we should tar and feather this guy and run him out of town on a rail for bringing shame on us all. What would you do if some moron was metal detecting on your front lawn without your permission?

 

[OUTCOME1]

hey terry, you have the wrong idea of the post buddy rooo!!!! i only posted this so no one else would make this mistake so before you make statements like you totally understand the situation or know someone or call the a moron (you must be one of those perfect people!!!!) ?? so you are saying that i may as well have gone right in your front yard and just assumed it was okay and start digging? i think you missed the point here, but i bet you deal with that alot..

 

[Terry Soloman]

hey terry, you have the wrong idea of the post buddy rooo!!!! i only posted this so no one else would make this mistake so before you make statements like you totally understand the situation or know someone or call the a moron (you must be one of those perfect people!!!!) ?? so you are saying that i may as well have gone right in your front yard and just assumed it was okay and start digging? i think you missed the point here, but i bet you deal with that alot..

Let's review. You posted: "anyone ever had a tresspass on church property or school property after dark?

well i did!!!! here is the law in Virginia on that. my court date is may 28th. i have no criminal history and i am 35 years old. i assume i will be okay. i even sent a letter to the church apologizing and informing them of the incident...it was the police that showed up to relax that wrote me up when they saw my vehicle and me mding!!! crazy!!!
§ 18.2-128. Trespass upon church or school property. A. Any person who, without the consent of some person authorized to give such consent, goes or enters upon, in the nighttime, the premises or property of any church or upon any school property for any purpose other than to attend a meeting or service held or conducted in such church or school property, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor."​

You snuck onto private property - at night! You got caught. Then you posted that fact here. Am I supposed to feel better about you and your actions because you want to "warn" others not to do it? News flash - We already KNOW not to trespass - especially after dark! So please, explain the point I missed. I completely understand what you did. Maybe you are a nice guy that just made an innocent mistake. I think my first impression is the correct one.

 

[OUTCOME1]

oh well if you go back and start from the thread not 'everyone" did know. maybe you knew the va law 18.2-128 and even if you did not know that law. you are correct, get permission. the point here is its better to post here than it is the mechanicsville local, i don't mind posting an add i your local area news paper about it.lol!!

 

[OUTCOME1]

and it was not sneaking..i drove right up to the church and parks like i have been doing for years. no problems, even had cops show up and ask questions and leave. this church must be different. you are still missing the point. anyway, have a good day

 

[fmerg]

if i remember in the instruction manual it say that you should check your local laws before going onto any property

 

[groundhogdd]

if you go to whites web site they have a permission form you can down load get it signed before you dig. i have been detained many times but after showing permission form all was good.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

if i remember in the instruction manual it say that you should check your local laws before going onto any property

Ok, sure. And don't confuse the matter of "checking your local laws" to mean "go ask can I metal detect?". You can "check your local laws" by looking them up for yourself. That would satisfy the code-of-ethics portion you cite. Unfortunately, too many people have read that part of the code-of-ethics, and interpretted that to mean "waltz into city hall asking if you can metal detect". The code never said that, but it's been taken to mean that by some.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

if you go to whites web site they have a permission form you can down load get it signed before you dig. i have been detained many times but after showing permission form all was good.

groundhodgg, re: "permission forms" Yes, perhaps for a church @ private property. But no, not for government property (parks, schools, beaches, etc....) No one is going to go into a govt. office, with a contract-in-hand for a government person to sign. That would be the FASTEST way to get a "no". In fact, even for private property, such a form is ONLY for if the property owner requests it. Otherwise, a handshake and a smile is sufficient. Because ...... think of it: what would YOU do if a total stranger shows up at your door with a contract for you to sign? Doh!

 

[2screwed]

Here's a link to Whites permission form if anyone want's it:

White's Metal Detectors - Permission to Detect Form

 

[Honest Samuel]

No, to the question because I may get shot.