NO Digging In Montana City Parks WTH This Is Montana

[buttedigger]

So before I even touched a park here in Butte, Montana I decided to email an info request from the parks and rec manager and this is what I got.
" Mr Padilla, I'm not sure if that is allowed in our parks. With that said, I know there is an ordinance against it. The law is 12.08.060 park vegetation. IT states; no person shall remove, cut, break or climb on any park tree or shrub, nor shall any person cut, pull, or pick any plant in a public park, or remove or damage sod, turf or topsoil. Hope this helps.
Kelly

Really? Now I know National and State Parks are off limits but all public parks and all fishing access sites? Seriously, your disturbing the ground by walking on it.Here you can't even pick a worm up and use it for bait. Your dog takes a dump and he throws some dirt to cover it, you just broke the law. I have heard of New York being like this but Montana? I have not replied as I am pretty angry and I know a response will not be the politest. I guess I have to head off into the BLM forest.

MDHTALK - Montana Metal Detecting Law & Regulations
Federation of Metal Detector & Archaeological Clubs Inc.

12.08.060 Park vegetation. http://www.co.silverbow.mt.us/documents/T12-Title12STREETSSIDEWALKSANDPUBLICPLACES_000.pdf

Anyone know of this? I have seen guys on other sites showing their park finds from Montana and even right here in Butte. I am thinking I take a risk and play dumb if I get approached and leave right away if asked.

 

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[Northern Lights]

It's like opening up a whole new can of worms contacting any regulatory body, no one is going to put themselves on the line and say it's okay. Usually they are going to dig up some age old paper work or regulations that round about says you can't even spit or pick up a stick. Somethings are best left alone till actual instances occur. We have had the same happen here in Ontario numerous places when you seek permission to detect, they see it as digging and disturbing the ground. If others have already hunted the area and it's not posted, I would just hunt and play dumb. Sometimes you can get one person in authority to come along and tell you you can't and next day or next shift others just pay you no attention at all, some just like to exercise what little authority they do have. In the long run it's best to check with local hunters or a local club, chances are the place your wondering about, they have been hunting it for years.

HE HE Here's a trick, hunt with a buddy, hunt a half mile apart but within sight of each other. If someone comes over and says you can't hunt, you say " oh ya! what about that guy way over there " when he takes off to tell him, you commence hunting and you both keep the person running back and forth all day long.

just joking lol .

 

[buttedigger]

Lol your last part is funny. I was thinking I would have to find guys who have been here for a while. They have no detector clubs around here as far as what I have found and that's probably why lol

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

buttedigger, let me save you some time in the future: If you think verbage about "defacement", "alterations" and forbid "damage" etc....... apply to your hobby of metal detecting, then give it up now. Choose another hobby. Here's why: That type of boiler-plate laws and rules exist EVERYWHERE, at EVERY park, across the entire USA. Yup. I mean, seriously, did you think you were going to walk in and ask: "Hi. Can I please vandalize, alter, deface, and mutilate the park please?"

But here's the truth of the matter: all such phrases that guy quoted you, ..... ALL inherently infer the END result. So if you leave no trace of your presence (cover your spots, stomp it down, ruffle it back up, and leave no trace), then by logical deduction, you have not: defacED, alterED, or vandalizED anything, NOW HAVE YOU? But sure, if you ask enough desk bound bureaucrat's "can I metal detect?" (even if you never mentioned "digging"), you can bet their mental image could be "geeks with shovels". So what did you THINK their easy answer was going to be?

You are the latest victim of "No one cared, TILL you asked" club. It's just as northern-lights said: Most places that people went and found themselves a "no" at, are routinely detected, and no one cares (unless you were being a nuisance, or sticking out like a sore-thumb begging for attention, etc...). In fact, I bet that very person who told you "no", would probably have never given the matter a moment's thought, or paid you a second glance. Until you have now come in with your "pressing question".

In the future, look up rules/laws for yourself. City muni codes are available for public viewing. Look for yourself. If you see nothing there that says "no metal detecting", then presto, it's not prohibited. Of course this doesn't gaurantee you'll never get a griper (nor would you have a "gaurantee" of zero gripers, even if you'd gotten a "yes".). So you still need to use discretion in your timing (as this is an odd hobby with admitted connotations). Go at low traffic times, don't be in the middle of retrievals when lookie-lous are watching, etc...

 

[buttedigger]

Haha thanks Tom I did read the statute before hand thought to ask anyway since I haven't found anyone around here that metal detects parks yet. I came from Arizona where you can almost do anything and they never had metal detecting restrictions or statutes like this. I always ran into A detectorist in AZ because its usually beautiful weather all year round except June & July. Everyone is usually " you need to ask before you" if you know what I mean. The way the system is now they can say something like I was disturbing or cutting soil or turf and end up in court or some idiot films me but I had planned to do it on low traffic early or late evenings so I'm not drawing too much attention

 

[Shunkaha]

Well that sucks. I was gonna go dig up some parks here in Butte tomorrow. LOL

 

[Viddy]

You need to get a group on detectorists together and march on City Hall... the Metal Militia!

 

[bevo]

almost all parks are like that. Why did you ask? Thats just askin for it.

 

[MT_Joe]

Dont ask. Just do it. Never had a problem.

 

[buttedigger]

That's what I'm doin' for now on

 

[buttedigger]

I asked because that's the etiquette we should follow but guess that can screw you worse in this day of age.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I asked because that's the etiquette we should follow but guess that can screw you worse in this day of age.

Or how about this buttedigger: "Etiquette" is looking up the laws for himself. How much more "law abiding" and "etiquette" can a person be, by looking it up for himself? If there were nothing there saying "no metal detecting", then presto, he's been "etiquette". The stuff about "destruction" and "vandalism" do not apply, unless .... of course ... you intend to leave holes.

Sure, some busy-body can debate this semantics. Avoid them and go at low traffic times. I have been doing this for over 35 yrs, and never had anyone "film" me, or faced any sort of legal problems. Have I been accosted or appraised at times (by someone who thinks you'll harm earthworms or whatever), SURE! But there comes a time when you have to realize that you're in an odd-ball hobby, that draws lookie-lous, and that not everyone will love you and your hobby (archies, gardeners, etc...). To think you're going to please 100% of the people, all the time, everywhere, .... is to give it up and choose another hobby. Or hunt only beaches or private land I suppose

 

[buttedigger]

Like I said I did look it up and the same law that is written in the Fish & Wild life section 12 states no metal detecting or disturbing top soils Sooooo CA, whatever you are, the same wording is in the statutes of the city and county parks. They consider disturbing the top soil. Don't tell me to give up a hobby just because I ask about a statute or ask others if they have had the same issue. For your info I am not the first to complain about this same issue.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

butte-digger, I'm confused. I looked through all your info. in the OP starting post, and didn't see "no metal detecting" as a rule. Sure maybe "disturbing top-soils", but nothing that said "no metal detecting". Did I miss something? I went through your link, even using a key word search function on my computer. Nothing there.

You're talking about a city park there, right? Because the MDHtalk stuff you link, is for state parks, not city or county level parks.

So if I missed something, and there was a specific "no detecting" written somewhere there, I've missed it. Go and see yourself, in your OP, and you'll see. Only periphery stuff about vandalism, disturbance, etc.... Nothing specific to saying "no metal detecting"

And no, I wasn't telling you to "give up the hobby". Sorry it sounded like that. I was saying that if a person automatically applies those things to apply to metal detecting, that he's going to have to restrict himself to private land (or the beach). Because ALL parks (city, county, state and fed) ALL have verbage that disallows "destruction" "defacement" and so forth. But no, I do not equate those to metal detecting. To do so (to make the automatic equivalence) is to get to the point where I might as well give it up now. Because those clauses exist everywhere. But are usually not applied, unless someone is being a nuisance, leaving holes, or sticking-out-like-a-sore thumb type of thing.

 

[buttedigger]

I appreciate you helping out let me find what I was talking about. I could be reading into it. Just a sec

 

[buttedigger]

butte-digger, I'm confused. I looked through all your info. in the OP starting post, and didn't see "no metal detecting" as a rule. Sure maybe "disturbing top-soils", but nothing that said "no metal detecting". Did I miss something? I went through your link, even using a key word search function on my computer. Nothing there.

You're talking about a city park there, right? Because the MDHtalk stuff you link, is for state parks, not city or county level parks.

So if I missed something, and there was a specific "no detecting" written somewhere there, I've missed it. Go and see yourself, in your OP, and you'll see. Only periphery stuff about vandalism, disturbance, etc.... Nothing specific to saying "no metal detecting"

And no, I wasn't telling you to "give up the hobby". Sorry it sounded like that. I was saying that if a person automatically applies those things to apply to metal detecting, that he's going to have to restrict himself to private land (or the beach). Because ALL parks (city, county, state and fed) ALL have verbage that disallows "destruction" "defacement" and so forth. But no, I do not equate those to metal detecting. To do so (to make the automatic equivalence) is to get to the point where I might as well give it up now. Because those clauses exist everywhere. But are usually not applied, unless someone is being a nuisance, leaving holes, or sticking-out-like-a-sore thumb type of thing.

Now this is from the fish wildlife PDF, Number 12 states no metal detecting. The wording throughout this section are almost exact to the statute for the city and county parks.

fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=27322

 

[buttedigger]

butte-digger, I'm confused. I looked through all your info. in the OP starting post, and didn't see "no metal detecting" as a rule. Sure maybe "disturbing top-soils", but nothing that said "no metal detecting". Did I miss something? I went through your link, even using a key word search function on my computer. Nothing there.

You're talking about a city park there, right? Because the MDHtalk stuff you link, is for state parks, not city or county level parks.

So if I missed something, and there was a specific "no detecting" written somewhere there, I've missed it. Go and see yourself, in your OP, and you'll see. Only periphery stuff about vandalism, disturbance, etc.... Nothing specific to saying "no metal detecting"

And no, I wasn't telling you to "give up the hobby". Sorry it sounded like that. I was saying that if a person automatically applies those things to apply to metal detecting, that he's going to have to restrict himself to private land (or the beach). Because ALL parks (city, county, state and fed) ALL have verbage that disallows "destruction" "defacement" and so forth. But no, I do not equate those to metal detecting. To do so (to make the automatic equivalence) is to get to the point where I might as well give it up now. Because those clauses exist everywhere. But are usually not applied, unless someone is being a nuisance, leaving holes, or sticking-out-like-a-sore thumb type of thing.

Metal Detecting In Montana? Know The Law!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Not able to plug in your link. Leads me to something that says I must install a program or something? But in any case, if that's a state entity ("fish and wildlife ..."), then ....... that wouldn't apply to city and county. HOWEVER, you're saying the "wording throughout this sections are almost exact" to that state-wording. In that case, what they've maybe done at the city or county level is INCORPORATED the state-level wording into their locale statues, by specific inclusion. You know, like "borrowed" the wording of the state parks laws, and "made" it their own rules, just because the wording was there to use, already drafted etc....

In that case, did they also specifically draft in the wording that you're saying specifically says "no metal detecting"? If so, then ........ that's a bummer. But if that part is NOT there (ie.: doesn't specifically say "no metal detectors"), then in my opinion, that means that part is not down at the city or county level.

There's been people over the years, that look at the FMDAC's state-by-state listing (or any other compilation of the states) listing of state park's laws, and made the mistake that the laws they're reading apply to their ENTIRE state. So for example, a few of the states on that list have an out-right "no". And people have read that thinking "oh no, I can't detect anywhere in my state!". But that's NOT the case. It only applies to state parks (and only state park land at that! Not necessarily other types of state-owned land). City and county land can indeed have other rules. You know, like one says "no fireworks", while another has no such prohibition, and so forth. However, on the other hand, if the city or county level park INCORPORATED those state level laws, and specifically said "no fireworks", then fine, in that case, it has become a specific inclusions of a higher levels wording.

 

[buttedigger]

12.08.060 Park vegetation.

http://www.co.silverbow.mt.us/documents/T12-Title12STREETSSIDEWALKSANDPUBLICPLACES_000.pdf

The wording is almost exact? Tell you the truth this is the very first I have every asked to detect anywhere except on private homes.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

12.08.060 Park vegetation.

http://www.co.silverbow.mt.us/documents/T12-Title12STREETSSIDEWALKSANDPUBLICPLACES_000.pdf

Can anyone else click on this? I'm getting nothing but a blank page.

Buttedigger: does it say "no metal detecting"? Or is it just things about "park vegetation" ?